a multiplayer game of parenting and civilization building
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Absolutely love the family tree. Could it say how people died as well?
& yes, i do not trust nobody now in OHOL, betrayed one time too often
...yeah and if I'm not going to enjoy playing with other people, why bother with online multiplayer?
The time my baby only knew Spanish so I had to quickly pull up google translate to figure out how to say "leave carrots to seed" was pretty cool, though.
So we'll see how it goes.
Yeah, I've been killed by my sister because I gave her the arrow after she denied knowledge of our mom's body. Figured it was likely outcome so why bother with that line?
jasonrohrer wrote:Question:
If someone is messing with you, breaking the rules of your village, how do you deal with them? Like, if someone picks every carrot and runs off with it and hides it. And you catch them doing it. And you tell them to stop. And they don't stop. Then what?
That is the only reason that killing is present in OHOL, because I cannot envision how player-generated laws would function without it.
You could implement a reporting and temporary banning system like in other online multi-player games.
I know that's kinda impossible with players being anonymous in game and it's a lot of work for one person but perhaps later down the line?
I like in-game solutions. How about the "murder" weapon takes away your ability to feed yourself? So if you can find someone who will vouch for you and feed you, you're cleared. If not, you have a few seconds (depending on the state of your food bar) to make your case.
If food is scarce and/or people are running off their feet, maybe they won't be able to, but at least you can tell your story.
But also if the background ethics of a civ building game are that murder is the only way to allow policing, ugh.
No mac version yet. Interested but don't have the time to port it myself.
The actual people are prob still in-game so this isn't going to get to them, but had my first experience with an asshole griefer.
Interestingly, he killed me and (I think) got away with it because he blamed me. My Eve grandma died just before I could speak full words, and asked the fam to take care of the town. I wanted to help. We had a pretty decent system going, but were having food troubles. With cooperation no problem.
Haven't been trapped (or seen someone trapped) in a room before. Didn't realize you couldn't walk over open trash pits (knew sheep couldn't). So, points for cleverness, Jason. Not really a sign I'm a newb, that I haven't interacted with this exact configuration before, but if it makes you feel better, eh. Anyway, got out because someone finally filled in the trash hole. That was nice of them.
But. A murderer came to steal clothes. I ran away but grabbed a carrot to run after my aunt with a baby (I think she was the one who had let me out). Found pies were locked away the same place I had been. Realize bro Jason has a knife and he either thinks I'm the new murderer or is acting like he does. I could have gotten away from him, but was male, didn't want my family to starve. Needed to rescue the pies, which meant filling the trash heap, getting the basket of pies, (hoping not to get trapped again), and getting to back to the farm without getting killed. Then he runs up wtih the knife and calls me the griefer. Can't protest my innocence that well while trying to drop off pies AND avoid knife so end up dead.
Interesting but less fun experience. I'm sure the dude had fun but I'm guessing it was a net loss since the other half-dozen people seemed to be playing to maintain/extend the town.
Since communication is so costly there isn't really anyway to explain a situation, especially not while trying to avoid the guy with the knife. Can't really see a way around that.
Net result: asshole murderer with a knife still in game, helpful young adult killed. Too bad.
I personally don't see how memes or unrelated but civil intellectual discussions make the environment "toxic", and frankly, if that turns you off, then just don't read it.
Just want to point out that this is exactly the point that started this subthread, because Jason used the example of "endless memes" as something disruptive enough to moderate, but that if people felt threatened or unsafe or "offended" they should go the police (implying it wouldn't be something for him or forum moderators to deal with). This dissonance baffled me immensely.
So, environments can be toxic, but civil intellectual discussions certainly doesn't make it so. People shouting slurs and refusing to talk civilly makes it toxic. Individuals fighting with each other over specific grievances is something else entirely and not at all what I'm talking about.
Note I haven't consistently seen it on the forums (yet), nor am I on discord. In-game so far I've seen it dealt with promptly and/or dealt with it myself.
There is a huge and important difference between hate speech/toxic environment and merely "being offended", individuals fighting, or "differences of opinions". Having clear moderation rules promotes free speech.
I have no patience for people who are easily offended. I am adamantly opposed to hate speech. That does not mean I want people banned or punished the second they misspeak.
...unless it becomes disruptive to the other discussion. Like, if someone is posting spam, that's disruptive. If someone is posting endless, unrelated memes, that's disruptive.
I'm not in on the details of this fight, nor do I want to be, but this surprised me.
Memes and spam are more clearly disruptive than deliberately alienating and violent words? The "just ignore it" advice applies even more to spam and memes than to hate speech. It seems a really odd line to draw.
Don't get me wrong, it's your parlour, I'm happy to abide by your rules. But, *memes* are more disruptive than language (can't really call it conversation) that is explicitly about driving people away?
Or if you really want to keep the baby, strike out for the wilderness.
Do berries on domestic bushes go bad? Or do they keep alive as long as you empty and water them?
doesn't sound that interesting to me since there is not enough different paths to go but just one, up the tech tree,
feels then rather like being chased, flogged actually
This is my concern. Forcing wheat farming for basket-making is better than endless carrot farming how? And since soil is finite, then sheep farming is required, but sheep farming setup requires a very specific and lengthy path.
If there isn't a little bit of breathing room, we don't have time in-game to develop any ideas. Even pointing out good field layouts or that this tool could help.
The use of trash pits for sheep barriers is a cool emergent thing---but you don't get that rich emergence if you have one specific path in mind.
Not historical sim, totally fine. From a game-play perspective, civ dying because of being too big and over consumed is great. Irreparably destroying things by accident, not so much. On the other hand, if things reset semi-regularly or the world is infinite, then it's not really "irreparable".
Maybe I'm stuck on the idea of innovation being both enabled and demanded by advancing technology. As opposed to forced through artificial scarcity of root resources.
I'm worried that scarcity is going to increase busy work without getting to the interesting effects of trades and cooperation. Communication is already such a problem in game (writing might help, we'll see) and it's the thing that enables human societies to develop.
Maybe I just need to think of OHOL as forum + game environment, rather than wishing the game could support true communication.
Why despawn rather than extremely slow respawn rate?
Or is the new Eve placement algorithm meant to ensure that Eve is in pristine wilderness, and moving toward origin will reveal barren wilderness and useless towns?
This whole one-use nature thing feels very artificial to me.
This is great. I know some friends' pain in playing this is around "not only will I die, I will destroy other people's work accidentally", so this is great.
Eat raw seal! It's very nutritious (Inuit people didn't get scurvy even without access to plants because of seals).
Also we should be able to get water from ice holes. And +1 to ice fishing.
There is no programmatic way to hide the coordinates. There are ways to make it require more advanced programming to get at, but there's absolutely no way of guaranteeing they're hidden.
The sapling nerf has me thinking about this and it's only true in the sense of heat-death-of-the-universe.
Everything runs out ONCE a society's use rate exceeds replacement rate.
Saplings shouldn't run out. But they should get rare as the population explodes and *excessive* use happens. And it should be possible to do things to permanently destroy sources of saplings. But stasis should be possible too.
Forcing things to run out when there's only one naked Eve is making it virtually impossible to develop civilization.
Waves of newbies or kept-babies causing problems as exactly on point, though.
maybe saplings should rarely grow near trees every few hours.
I very much like this idea, particularly if the frequency is related to the tree type. And then if saplings grow into trees, you have the very realistic problem that the forest eventually encroaches on your cleared land.
Ooh, can they be angora bunnies so that we can spin thread off them (spindle + bunny = thread + bare bunny)? And maybe use the poop for compost (at a much slower return that sheep poop, obviously).
bare bunny + time = hairy bunny
hairy bunny + time = overheating bunny
Unlike sheep, the fibre from bunnies is just the undercoat. But for simplicity you could treat it like shearing.
Seriously bunnies are a great resource.
I just set my server to one of the less-used ones, to see if it was 666bot there. Was born to an Eve saying 666. Interesting. If it is a bot I'm not sure how it survives to adult hood.
Respawning multiple times eventually led to being an Eve myself, so at least it doesn't completely block the server.
For realism, reed bundles left abandoned should turn into rotted reeds, which can be threshed for thread.
Also that might be why I'm happy to see adult males in a civ, because sure any female can abandon all the excess babies, but you can't guarantee all the females are on the same page re: population control. So workers that don't have any chance of spawning new babes are pretty useful as a balance.
I really like the idea of finding techniques for civ survival that don't just rely on expert players and communication, but building up efficient ways to raise the weakest, so to speak. Yeah, a civ will die if too many of its members are weak or incompetent. But a truly strong civ can weather waves of newbs and a few griefers, if we know how to work together.
If I only wanted to play with experts, I'd set up a custom server just for my friends. And the game would get old pretty quick. This forced-to-raise-newbs is a fascinating aspect. Even dealing with game-breaking changes is pretty interesting.
Right, the server has no concept of properties. But the game does, and thus hacky methods have to be introduced in order to have properties maintained by the server/code, which has no explicit concept of them.
But the game relies heavily on properties, conceptually.
I love playing with new players. I get to teach them things. So long as they listen.
stump_fertile, ax_40, shovel_cracked are all pretty usefully thought of as properties. Sure, you can worry about the YAGNI of property explosion, but just . . . don't explode the properties until you're sure you need them.
You already are using properties, just in a painful way.
[ETA] It introduces another crafting function, yes. But still pretty elegant.
a + b = c + lambda x: x.use-1