a multiplayer game of parenting and civilization building
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Lonewarior811 maybe the group aspect isn't actually necessary.. if there were some kind of 'murder scream' (so people would know what's up -- this is realistic) and if it were possible to use a rope (or some rope-based tech) to tie somebody up, that may be enough to even the odds in a realistic way. I had been thinking that to "subdue" somebody maybe two different people needed to click on the same target within X seconds of each other, but that may be too complicated. Simply being able to tie up an attacker (or Seed Carrot Eater, or other miscreant) and deal with them accordingly -- while not having to carry around a weapon yourself -- might be enough to balance things in a tech-level-appropriate way, while still encouraging the development of societal mechanisms to protect people.
I just don't see much capturing in our time period. There are no written laws just words to live by. Also in a video game no one is going to learn from there mistakes by being tied up and leaving the game unless they were just making an honest mistake. But they would learn not to make the same mistake by being killed multiple times for x actions. Its just a personal learning curve.
For pvp imagine castle sieges where you not only interact with enemy players but with the environment (something like cutting off their food and fire supply). This is just the most basic thing I could think of off the top of my head. I'm sure there are plenty of interesting and unique ways to destroy an enemy although we are currently primitive af.
Is there a 'death scream' or 'murder scream' in the game? When you hear a baby crying a screen or two away, you know that "something is going on". You can choose to react however you like, but it give you some awareness outside of the range of your immediate vision. If there was a blood-curdling scream each time a person was killed violently - either by an animal or another person - it would give you some warning that you were near a dangerous event, and give you a chance to respond as you saw fit; run away, fight back, etc etc.
Another possible change is that you could give people a random chance of fighting back. In reality, if you run around killing unarmed people with a knife, you are very likely to win most fights... but there's a small chance that you run into someone faster / stronger / luckier and they kill you instead. If one time in ten, stabbing someone killed you instead of the victim, it wouldn't eliminate griefing, but it would make it slower and more complex to do it consistently.
Randomly chancing the kill just makes the pvp too complex for a game of this genre and would probably end it for good. I am 99% sure Jason intends for there to be murderers and that we need to learn to fight it properly. Its not like battle field counter-knifing if all you do is just stand there and hope your character beats them. I do agree with the scream because someone could kill someone just one frame outside of your view and then next all you see is a friendly hunter with a bow.
Hmm.. so you're saying that we may just be entering a particularly violent era in our civilization's development and need to deal with it? Everybody should craft a bow first thing? Until we progress to a point where most people are born in advanced towns that have better technological defenses and/or dedicated guards? I'd still hope for there to be some kind of group-defense mechanism.. or maybe a non-lethal "subdue" since that would solve other nuisance issues (like the Eaters of Corn) where people are breaking rules but you don't necessarily want to kill them. If two or more people could "subdue" another person... maybe with rope? They would remain tied up until somebody else clicks to untie them?
I havent fully worked out my thoughts yet but thats the main idea of it. As for for subduing that didn't really happen in ancient times i don't think because eating those carrots could kill everyone. Even more damage than a bow ever could. Food is the most important resource in the game rn and should be treated like it. Can you also explain what you mean by group defense system.
I'm of the opinion that, because this is a game, what we do in it is purely transient, existing only in our minds after we log off. Further, this game does a great job at showing just how fragile human communities are. Poor management can wipe out civilizations just as effectively as raiding trolls. When they survive those factors, Time will destroy them all anyway.
History has its way of dealing with murderers, just as it does with bad leaders and thieves: capital punishment. A town would greatly benefit by having technologically advanced defenses, such as guards with shields, armor, hot oil, pit traps with spikes, etc. that everyday bandits could fall prey to but not make use of (until maybe siege equipment).
In the erstwhile, I agree with lonewarrior811. Other people, even your own children or parents, are simply more elements in this survival game. In fact, they're the most unpredictable elements, just like in real life.
Exactly. But as for the methods of dealing with murderers rn. Seeing as a lone eve can craft a bow just as fast as anyone else it seems op. We need to not think for more evolved states when a lone eve can't cope with one guard in an advanced town. I think as tribal people everyone is the guard since we are all in the same boat and no one has the upper hand. We give it to murders by limiting our defense capabilities. Since we all have bows, the most bows wins.
Again, I agree with you for the most part Lonewarior811 in terms of pushing society to evolve.. but to take it to an extreme, people shouldn't have a "wipe the entire server" button they can press when they want to screw with everybody. There has to be balance SOMEWHERE in terms of how much damage a single person can do. Maybe the current situation makes it too difficult to defend against such attacks, since it's often all over before anybody has realized what's going on. A single village guard is reasonable -- personal bodyguards are not... but that's practically what it would take, to defend against griefer murder sprees. Even just adding some audio clues such as a blood-curdling scream could alert everybody to be on their guard.
yeah audio cues make sense thats a good idea. I just think that pvp is fair (in terms of balance) and maybe villagers rely on one guard too much when back in ancient times the whole tribe fought in defense. We could be jumping a little to far ahead with guards and should try to put our mindsets with the people we play as in our evolved state. Which is how we will probably advance further. To go forward we need to take our thinking back. Think "man has weapon" "man not from area" "man enemy".
Weapons are just extremely lethal just like they were during pre-history. Once we advance, we will develop armor and such. Maybe a tenet should be to never hold weapons near someone unless your a town guard. That means you have the intent to kill.
Lonewarior811 that is basically how I was looking at it, though I now realize there SHOULD be some notion of balance. Phate, I meant not just PvP but also griefing -- I WANT the game to let people burn down villages or go on a murder spree. But you're right that a single person shouldn't be able to have that much impact; there has to be balance.
(And to clarify why I think even "pure" griefing is a good thing to allow -- I actually find it fun to find myself spawning as a new Eve and stumble across a ghost town that is abandoned because everybody was murdered while it was at its peak, as opposed to finding one where everybody starved and drained everything.... the griefers do at least generate some "creative destruction" in terms of storytelling.)
Tbh the balance is that people need to learn to start fighting back, like learning to only pick fruiting milkweed. Right now no one prepares for it. We need to start preparing, its another hurdle in evolution. That is why I am positive Jason wants it just the way it is. Also when people keep asking for the ability to take two hits, that is where we will start building armour some day, rn an arrow is lethal and anyone carrying one is extremely dangerous.
I understand that this is a game and it should be fun but it also tries to simulate history and this exact thing happened a long time ago. It's almost like it's just another encounter in the game people have to deal with. Like handling with animals or farming just other humans. Same idea. Treat it like anything else that you need to do for a successful civilization.
The reason for killing them rn is so they dont eat your children
At this point I would think tribe wars would only mean mutual extinction.
Further, the value of cooperation in this game can't be overstated, even if it's just cooperating not to screw things up. I don't think we "win" by any single lifetime, but by seeing the entirety of humanity achieving more technology, longer lives, and longer unbroken lines of generations.
You should watch the video on this website about the 4 reasons for living or something like that it shows that we can focus on other matters and its ok. This game is about the experiences and your personal stories as stated in the description as well as future generations. Also it is very possible that killing another tribe could mean saving your own. I think thats the only logic for fighting anyway. (The video is at the bottom of the home page next to the discord and its called "how to deal with a crisis of meaning").
This is a good leap in technology
THE VILLAGE PEOPLE (what can I do in a village?)
(this is so you can kinda tell what needs to be done - you don't need to stick to a single role)
SIMPLE ROLES (the 'I don't know what to do' roles)
THE GATHERER - requires: a basket
Basic beginner role, if you don't know what to do, grab a basket and get berries and resources from a few screens away.THE BASKET BASTARD - requires: a sharp stone
Villages always need more baskets, go off on your own, don't die, bring back baskets.THE ORGANIZER - requires: knowing what goes where
If the village has enough basket, you can spend years moving things to the right place.THE PRIMITIVE RUNNER - requires: a basket or a dry clay bowl
The primitive runner runs to nearby biomes and brings back specific things - water, fertile soil & seeds.THE 'OH I KNOW HOW TO MAKE SOME STUFF' - requires: game knowledge
This role is responsible for making the basic tools for fire, hunting and pottery.BASIC ROLES (once you've actually started a settlement - most roles are split)
THE FARMER WATERGETTER - requires: tilled rows, seeds & water pouches
Farmers are responsible for taking care of the farm, mostly maintaining seeding rows or SECRET GARDENS.
A developing settlement needs carrots & milkweed.THE HUNTER CLOTHIER - requires: hunting tools and backpack, if possible
The core aggregators of value during this phase - they run off and bring back materials for clothing and skewers.
Hunters should also be the ones crafting clothes at the start of a settlement.THE FIREMAKER SKEWERPERSON - requires: firemaking tools
The firemaker is responsible for maintaining a fire for raising children, cooking skewers & base organization.THE GATHERING CRAFTSPERSON - requires: lots of knowledge and hopefully a backpack
The craftsperson is responsible for managing & collecting the necessary resources for advancing the settlement.
This is a more generalized, split role, until you reach blacksmithing.SETTLEMENT ROLES (for when you spawn somewhere and go 'oh this place looks neat')
THE ACTUAL FARMER - requires: loads of baskets, all types of seeds, farming knowledge
In a larger base, the farmer is responsible for managing all the farm-based resources and seeds & commanding watergetters.THE DEDICATED WATERGETTER requires: at least 3 pouches & basket, hopefully 7 and a backpack
The dedicated watergetter is responsible for keeping water pouches always full & making sure that no ponds are dry.THE BLACKSMITH - requires: a forge, game knowledge
The blacksmith is responsible for managing the production of steel tools.
The smith will probably be the one to manage the kiln to make charcoal & collect smithing materials.THE SCAVENGER - requires: basket & backpack, survival knowledge
The scavenger is a specialized gatherer, going on long journeys looking for specific things that accelerate development.
The scavenger communicates with the village & assists all other roles.THE KNOWLEDGEABLE MOM - requires: lots of game knowledge, a slow fire
The mom is the village's baby-raiser - teaching players who have just spawned as they grow.
As the village should not be constantly spawning babies, it's advised that the mom also does basic cooking & base organizing.THE BUILDER - requires: basket & backpack, one sharp stone per wetland
The builder will plan & build the village's more permanent structures.
To accomplish this, they must walk into the wetlands, collect 7 clay, combine 7 adobe on the spot and return to town.VILLAGE ROLES (for when you spawn somewhere and go 'holy shit look at this stuff')
(not done, please suggest & describe roles from steel age+ for villages making carts and roads)
For the steel age maybe a town guard with a bow or knife because some people are murderers. Also I wanna see some tribe wars. That would be cool.
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