a multiplayer game of parenting and civilization building
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Water is used to make plants grow. If a plant has already grown you typically don't need to water it (exception trees that needs two waterings, maybe others I don't remember).
The dry bean plant can be harvested by clicking on it with an open hand.
A useful resource is onetech.info - https://onetech.info/1172-Dry-Bean-Plants
I liked your analysis of garlic, thank you.
removing or moving things is fine but it really should be similar effort to undo things, or it makes zero sense. If you spend 90 minutes to make an engine, it should really require a tool that is not so easy to make and it's only one use to remove that engine. SO like make a fire, make a tool, get some resources first, so you don't just walk in a town and steal with a single click then run away with it.
Love this idea.
A Wrench, maybe, that takes at least iron and maybe some rare resources to make. Recipe could be something like:
- use a chisel on a hot iron ingot on a flat stone
- hit with a hammer
- removing the chisel
- hit with the hammer again
If you use it to remove an engine the Wrench breaks.
You could also use the Wrench on an engine sitting on the ground to disassemble it into components.
Trolling and negativity is a defining characteristic of these forums. Without it, these forums would lose the flair that makes them interesting. I personally would have stopped reading them long ago if it wasnt the chaotic mess that it is.
I personally am constantly lurking for another essay thread to wade into late at night with whiskey in hand.
For recipes looking at onetech is always my first call.
Laggy wrote:DestinyCall wrote:Regarding realism, is it actually that realistic to murder someone because talking wastes too much time? That's not a utopian ideal. That's just expecting normal civilized behavior instead of power-gaming.
If someone takes my stapler at work, I don't beat them to death with a toner cartridge ... even if that is the only way to be completely sure it won't happen again. I find a less violent solution.
When your only tools are knives, and bows.
Every problem is solved by killing.
Unlike in the real world, you can't beat the crud out of someone, which is what should happen to certain people early on in their life.
Now we live in some distopian future where people don't even discipline their kids. Creating tons of entitled griefer Karens.
Jason should add punching. I want to settle my disputes with fisticuffs. We could vent our fury without killing - Loser gets a big goose egg and sixty seconds of unconsciousness to reconsider their life choices. Winner gets bragging rights.
Introduce new top-tear items: Boxing Gloves, Boxing Shorts, Silk Robe.
Requires co-operation from all families to craft the set.
Has no impact on gameplay.
I like this idea. Some options that could be used:
1. Some kind of interaction with a fire makes you 'remember' it. Potentially make it so the fire has to remain lit, for EXTRA GAMEPLAY.
2. Some kind of interaction with a well makes you remember it.
3. Some addition to a fire turns it into a 'family fire' and everyone gets a marker.
4. Some addition to a well makes it the 'family well' (which we sort of already have by anture of wells) but this addition would make it display a marker.
5. A new 'town centre' building that anyone can interact with to set their marker, and that their children inherit. Perhaps a pile of rocks, that can later be upgraded to look prettier/extend range of marker/whatever.
I think I like the town centre the most. Family fires are important in eve villages but later become part of the kitchen or nursery and lose that central aspect. Wells are very important but can take a little while to be established in eve villages, and later on tend to be surrounded by farms. A dedicated town centre would be nice.
There have been (at least) five different types of restrictions implemented in the game, and I think they have been useful experiments because *some* kind of restriction is what makes any game interesting.
Those are:
1. Restrictions based on what family you are born to (race restrictions)
2. Restrictions based on what you have previously done this life (tool restrictions)
3. Restrictions based on what you and your family have done previous lifes (gene score restrictions, curses->donkey town restriction)
4. Restrictions on resources based on what has been done in the world (iron mines, wells)
5. Restrictions on technology based on what has been done in the world (newcommen, engine, paver, etc)
Generally speaking, I think restrictions that limit your choices within a single life have been unsuccesful, and restrictions that limit your choices over multiple lives have been succesful.
You were born a certain race therefore parts of the map are magically inaccessible - bad.
I like the idea of tool restrictions but in practice it's far too limiting to have forced profession specialisation. Idea: using tools makes you better at them, encouraging specialisation. For example, tools are les likely to break the more you use them.
The curse system seems to work fairly well (your actions have consequences). Gene score works fairly well though might be opportunities to change how the score is calculated and what features it enables.
Resource lmits are generally pretty good, and should be expanded, to replace race restrictions. Technology being gated behind what has previously been built is *THE* key mechanic in this game, and should be expanded to impact resource availability more.
How could this work?
Instead of restricting who can act in each biome, restrict *WHAT* can be done in each biome, and add technology trees that support this. It could be as simple as things like putting a timer on rubber coming out of a tree - you have to process it within a few minutes or it goes bad. The trees are only in the jungle biome, so you have to get the sulphur and bring it to the rubber trees in order to make rubber products.
You could also have some technologies act like wells where they 'tap out' a geographic region around them, so only one of a certain machine can be built in an area, but I don't have any concrete suggestions. Maybe something like you need 'reinforced' ground to build some types of building (like a newcommen hammer) and you can only create one pice of reinforced ground every 100 tiles.
Make our choices meaningful, but let us make the choice.
The post was prompted by it being sold in two stores at the same time at different prices. In other words, I only thought of this when thinking about how the game was at two prices in two different places. It wasn't just about that case.
Fair enough, so we agree that it is possible to do the refund and repurchase in order to get the sale price, and that it is ethical to do so if you bought it while a sale was in progress. Additionally, I think it is unethical to do this if you bought it when there was no sale (and I think it's ethically fuzzy if you bought, for example, just before a sale started).
The difference is between if "the game uses a comic-book style" is meant to mean "I have a specific look that I want the game to have, and I would describe that as comic-book style" or instead "the game is meant to conform to the style guide of the MLA". There is a 3rd option, "I like how comic-books look and want this game to look similar".
If it's the 1st or 3rd then saying "the game doesn't meet comic book standards" is irrelevant, because the game is not trying to match comic book standards.
It is relevant, especially for the 3rd option, to say "Here are some examples of how numerals are used in comic books. Numerals would be super useful becase X, Y, and Z, and if you implement them like this you will still retain that cool comic-book style."
I suspect trying to convince the author of the game that their artistic vision is 'wrong' is harmful to your cause, beyond being simply pointless.
When I read Spoon's initial post I thought the intention was for people who bought the game years ago to get a refund and then rebuy it under a sale, and agree that would be unethical.
As Spoon has clarified the post is about the game being sold in two stores at the same time at different prices, I do not think it is unethical to ask for the difference in sale prices if you bought it while the sale was ongoing (and there is precedent for that in other places). The seller is not obligated to sell the game at the same price everywhere, but it's ethical to get the sale price if you buy something that is on sale.
Great job everyone!!!!
What a great event, such a fun take on the treasure hunt idea.
Coconut Fruit wrote:Cogito wrote:but if the score is tied to other people using the engine then you avoid the problem - an unused engine is worth no points.
I just imagined a game situation - 'Someone holding an engine (or anything) and saying to someone else' "could you use my engine pls? I need some points" xD
How would tracking the making of the engine work?
It isn't always one person who makes all of the parts.
Yeah this is one of the concerns I raised initially in this thread.
The simple option is to only reward the person who creates the 'final' object; this is easier to design and implement and may have the added bonus of incentivising people to complete projects. Has the potential to disincentivise people doing large projects together, but not sure.
If you kept track of who built literally every object, and which objects were used to build new objects, you could create a network of 'useful objects' and do some maths to say how useful each object has been. This could be implemented in a similar way to how the basic PageRank algorithm works, if you're familiar with that idea (the idea there being that interesting pages are linked to by other interesting pages, so you can measure how interesting a page is by counting how many pages link to it, and weighting by how interesting they are).
Just brainstorming here...
Farming score would be super easy this way and sometimes could be even harmful for the family (for example if people made unnecessary engines over and over again, wasting water for newcomen tools)
Don't forget a pro player can grief too.
It's possible that creating too many engines is 'bad behaviour', but if the score is tied to other people using the engine then you avoid the problem - an unused engine is worth no points.
I also don't think the score is intended to stop griefing per se, but rather to encourage and reward good bahaviours.
Also implementing something like this would take insane amount of time (adding some kind of score for so many actions, thinking of how big the score should be for each action - these are just a fraction of work that would have to be done)
Adding unnecessary complexity is the biggest pitfall for a system like this and is the reason it probably wouldn't be implemented as discussed so far.
And then what? Score would grow infinitely if people didn't do "bad behaviors"? How do you even tell the game what are bad behaviors? (is killing really bad if most people or leader agree that someone should be killed? - that's the only way to kill right now)
A couple of options:
- the score could decay steadily over time/every life
- only food items are included, and every time you eat something some of your score is transferred to whoever created that food item (and the 'creator' is defined on a specific action, for example the filling of a pie) - this would skew the score-meta so probably a bad idea
- it could be more items, but include this idea of score transference
----
You made me think about the intent of this idea, and I realised that you could probably achieve a similar 'reward' by simply making it so people could see who built/made what. Even if it's only your current-life-name, being able to see 'Jazz Hope' made this pie would be pretty cool.
That feature alone would change the dynamics in-game of quite a few things, even better if you can get an arrow to that person (or their grave!!!). Imagine seeing a loaf of bread, and you pick it up and it tells you 'Jazz Hope' made this so you run over to them and ask them how they made it.
From there it would be easyish to create a report of how many things each person made, and if you could then record when those things are used you have the data to implement lots of interesting systems that surface that information.
A better version however, would be that the score only increases when someone /else/ uses something a player produced
This would require more tracking but would remove a few possible exploits from the previous system
I love the idea of tracking how useful I have been.
Have you thought much about how that might work for complex items?
So we can track who baked the pie I'm eating, but do we also track who made the pie, who grew and picked the carrots, who ground the flour and made the dough?
I'm conscious about not derailing the conversation too much, but I think this is pertinent.
My thinking was that if you are talking in this forum about changes that could be made to the game, it's because you want to play a game that is better than the one we currently have. Additionally, I don't think anyone expects the game to be *simply* rolled back to a previous state, even if they want specific features reverted to a previous state.
So, I reason, people are here because they care about what the game might become.
Additionally, especially with early access games, I think most people realise that early marketing is aspirational - an idea of where the game might end up but not guaranteed. This is a bit nebulous and up for debate, but still I think at this point we know how the development of this game has progressed to this point and have no reason to expedct it to change drastically.
I ask everyone then: what keeps you coming back to the forums?
Spoon, if you feel like you've been lied to or whatever just get a refund and move on, please.
People hang around here because of what this game might become, not because of some marketing we saw years ago.
I think that's why you hang around too, but focusing on "what was promised" is counterproductive. The world has changed, and the vision for the game will certainly continue to change. Come with us, and imagine what the game could be like based on where we are right now, with who Jason is right now.
Fits near a base easier
That's more or less what I expected.
I find industrial farms require lots of space, so I would worry about the two rows encroaching on each other.
20 tiles is just the minimum for which I can justify plow use
I use one row because it halves the number of plough uses required. At runs of 20 it's still pretty efficient.
The initial investment is a pain yeah
You get seven bags of soil per compost and three bowls per bag
I know I have 40 sprinklers so I push a compost on the left and right of 3 10 tile intervals for each row
6 compost for one row iirc if you think about it its not that bad, only takes a few minutes to set up the soil
This seems pretty reasonable.
My solution is to primarily farm renewable crops. No berries, trees, or milkweed. That way, after the initial set up, it's just a small amount of water and kerosene to produce amazing amounts of food.
That said, once you have a lot of food, setting up a secondary tree farm is a good use of sprinklers (you will need about half a hammer to move the sprinklers there and back). I would do milkweed in the same plots as my main farm, and do all of them at once. I would make sure there was enough compost to redo all the plots after the milkweed run. Alternatively, allocate the last 4/8/12 plots as milkweed and replace them each cycle. I've never worked with more than ~16 sprinklers at once so it didn't make sense to farm too many different crops at once - just cycle through as fast as possible.
Cogito wrote:By far most annoying aspect is the soil and hoe uses for the non-renewable farm plots (trees and milkweed).
If you use a plow, you don't need soil except for berries
plows work on hardened rows
You have to make the hardened rows before you can use the plough on them. You can't run the plough on an empty tile and have it make furrowed ground.
So for all farm plots you require an initial investment of 1 soil and 1 hoe use, to make the first tilled row.
Wild plants do not leave a hardened row behind when you harvest them, so every harvest requires a new investment of 1 soil and 1 hoe use. For trees this means chopping the tree down.
Most crops only require that initial investment, but milkweed in particular is very expensive to farm in comparison.
Beautiful.
What was your thinking around bending the pipes around, as opposed to just two really long rows?
You can also create thread and rope with trivial water cost and even trees
I've considered doing a whole forest this way
Point being you can make a lot of slot boxes with minimal cost
Now I really want to see industrial farming of all resources. Once you have 30+ sprinklers you can make a *lot* of resources really quickly, not just food. By far most annoying aspect is the soil and hoe uses for the non-renewable farm plots (trees and milkweed).
A plough uses one "charge" for the entire row, so 1/24th of 1/6th of a tank of kero.
Moving sprinklers is not super easy, but well worth it. Moving a single sprinkler requires 1/200th of a hammer, and 2 storage slots. With backpacks as intermediate storage this is 2/84ths of a truck's storage capacity (21 large items). You can't transport fueled ploughs nor sprinkler pumps, so they have to be emptied, and then they require 2 large slots for the engines, and 2 small slots for the plough kit and pipe. Altogether you can transport 2 engines, 1 plough kit, 1 pipe, and 37 sprinklers (1 pipe and 1 nozzle each) in a truck. Perhaps remove 2 sprinklers so you can fit a tank of kero. This assumes you have enough backpacks, it will be harder with baskets.
Sprinkler and plough systems become cost positive at about 4 plots, however the time to pay down the initial cost becomes much shorter with more plots. With a 30x2 sprinkler farm the water saved would very quickly compensate for the iron and water used to create the system (assuming you need that much food!).
The most important consideration is actually the time savings - with a sprinkler system like that it is trivial for 1 player to feed an entire village.
Storing the produce can be an issue, but that's an issue with normal farms. My technique is to create a lot of baskets with wheat, and to fill the baskets with produce while waiting for next crop to grow. Harvested produce goes into piles two tile above/below the farm plots.
Sprinklers are done in straight lines because:
1. ploughs move in straight lines, as far as there is something to till, on one charge
2. sprinklers and pipes are very expensive to build, so any bends could have been used to make sprinklers instead
Milkweed is generally avoided because each harvest consumes:
1. a bowl of soil for each plant
2. a hoe use for each plant
3. a plough use per line
4. a bowl of water per line
5. a sprinkler use per line
For non-wild/farmable plants you only require the soil and hoe to establish the farm (you still consume the plough/water/sprinkler per harvest)
That said, if you need milkweed it is still more efficient to use the sprinkler, but that's why it's not that common.
When I am leader I focus on coordinating the villagers.
For anyone who doesn't use out-of-game chat, knowing what needs to be done at any point in time is a real challenge. So I make it my job to understand what are the main challenges and tell that to people.
Things like the well is running dry and the next upgrade isn't ready - "Order, we need water carted in, please fill buckets from ponds" or something like that
Sometimes co-ordinating the creation of new buildings, though buildings aren't really that important.
I will also call town meetings so that people who are keen to help can come together and decide who will do what.