a multiplayer game of parenting and civilization building
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"Pies are better." "Raw carrots are better."
WHICH IS IT
Inquiring minds want to know.
LET US HAVE A DEBATE
If you have limited space, raw carrots are better. If you don't mind reserving 37 spaces for farmland (35 berry bushes, 1 carrot row, and 1 wheat row), then you can sustainably cut down your water usage by a whole half a pond an hour to make berry-carrot pies.
However, don't cook your rabbits over a fire. Bake it into a pie. Mix it with a spare carrot for some extra pizzazz.
5*4 carrots every 4 mins should be a flat 300 carrots in an hour.
Thanks for your comment, Pasta! I'm glad you like the graphics.
And you're right about the 300 yield. Interestingly, I'm pretty sure that the jump from 264 to 300 comes from planting that extra seed that I haven't used in the diagram. My seed usage was 8 every seed cycle (9 min) instead of your optimal 9 every seed cycle.
Math is fun!
From what Ive seen of the code (and I'm not much of a programmer, so take this with a grain of salt), the reason that stacking things can be so hard is more of an ingrained problem. It might be difficult to fix. In thinking about ways to stack items, there seem to be two ways to do it, based on what I know of the code.
1) make a new stacked object for each existing object. This would take a while, but allow for Jason to individually, precisely and artistically set the upper bound of stacking for each object. Think of stones and stone piles for this.
2) make the ground itself a container. This would be much simpler, but would suffer a few flaws. Each item would be stacked the same way, regardless of how ugly it was. Plus, since items in containers don't interact in recipes, the code would probably have to be extensively rewritten since pretty much all recipes use something on the ground.
So, for now, boxes (boards and rope) are the best we got for advanced civilizations to stay organized.
Ah, shoot. You're right, Joriom. I was in a rush, so I forgot. I stopped at those numbers because even without calculating for compost they were so high.
That correction leads to 0.66 water per carrot pie, 1.66 water per berry-carrot pie, which definitely makes it more efficient. So now we can continue the calculations.
So how does composting play into this (sustainability is important)? You need 68 carrot pies to match the raw carrot output. The water cost for pie crust is 2 water / 3 pies. The composting cost for wheat is 1 water / 9 pies (1/3 water per compost * 1 compost per wheat * 1/3 wheat per pie). This currently means The water cost for the carrots is 68/5 = 11.6 water / hour. Factor in 2 plots for seeding and associated composting cost: 2.66 water / hour. This gives us 14.2667 water / hour (.237 water /min).
Phew. This is fun.
So, what does that leave us with? 0.237 water / min + 68/60*7/9 (0.882 water / min) = 1.119 water / min. A little higher than our raw carrot water demand. Rabbits can make them more efficient, though.
Moving onto BC (berry carrot) pies, You need 29 BC pies to match the raw carrot output. Right now the water demand is 29*1.6667 = 48.3 water per hour, which is good. Doing the same calculations above, we use 3.5 water / hour for composting and 7 water / hour for carrots (6 carrots to feed, 1 to seed). This brings our water usage to 58.8 water / hour or just under 1 / min. That's all the water costs to my knowledge, so I suppose berry carrot pie farms are more water efficient. 12% more, in fact.
Crazy! But I still think carrot farms are the way to go. Much less overhead and you don't have to keep 30+ bushes for pies, and other spaces for wheat.
From my measurements, reed skirts increase the time per food loss from 4.8 seconds to 5.6 - so it helps marginally. It basically means that 6 carrots, berries, etc. will now have the same potency while clothed as 7 carrots, berries, etc. while naked.
I disagree. Carrot farming is more efficient.
https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewt … 2743#p2743
Hey Hans, thanks for your question. A very good one. While doing the calculations, I actually realized that pies are less efficient than carrot farming. That said, they do still allow for good food storage, though not as well as 4 baskets of 3 carrots in a hand cart (8X12=96 per space with the hand cart as opposed to a max of 84 with a rabbit berry carrot pie).
False. You can refill NON-DRY wells. If it dries up - you basically have a fancy wall without any use. You can't put water into DRY well (both shallow and deep).
Oh. I misinterpreted the recipe. This definitely changes the utility of wells. Thank you for pointing that out!
Also - it takes 300s for well to replenish single (single? or more at once? unknown) unit of water. For comparision. It takes 120s for wet carrots to sprout, next 120s to grow full and 300s to seed.
It takes 300s for ponds to replenish single units as well. This does not affect their utility.
TLDR:
Wells are currently useless - just a fancy tileblocker.
This seems to be the case.
From the recipes, you can refill drained wells. Like ponds, they add a water value every 5 min when not dry.
The most important question: how much water can a well provide? From the code (numUses) its 7 for a shallow well (or 6 waters from full without draining) and 14 for a deep well (or 13 waters without draining it).
14 ponds per hour? Sheesh. I got 5.5 ponds per hour (66 water per hour, as you can just use 3 reeds per hour for composting, which minimizes water consumption). I suppose this doesn't factor in pies and the like.
https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=476
This is a periodical where the most up-to-date survival techniques and methods will be illustrated and posted. Feedback and criticism are appreciated! Letters to the editor can be submitted via reply on this thread.
======================================================
With the carrot-pocalypse coming to an end after this weekend's update, players have invented new ways of farming that defy the old standards, while other players have come up with unique habitation patterns to keep civilization going. In this volume of Modern Survival, we start things up by highlighting farming techniques, past and present, as well as some fun ideas about future techniques.
FOUR TO FEED, THREE TO SEED:
This classic farming technique helped amplify the output of many a farm. First mentioned in the forums by Hallon and illustrated by secondchild, this technique optimized efficiency by hacking how it takes 3 times as long for carrots to seed than to grow. Uncle Gus calls it "brilliant!"
OUT WITH THE OLD, IN WITH THE NEW:
However, as the game ages, so too will its rules. Versions 62 and 63 brought new farming mechanics as well as new content. For instance:
> Compost piles made from a bowl of mashed berries and carrot now provide 3 rows of soil, instead of 1.
> Seeding carrots use up soil, requiring 1 berry bush for every 3 seeding plots to be renewable.
> Seeding carrots provide 10 new seeds for each row, increasing seeding carrot potency.
> Seeding carrots grow in 9 minutes instead of 14.
> Wells and cisterns have been added. Wells are basically constructible ponds, and cisterns are basically mass water storage.
> Temperature mechanics have been "changed." - per Jason, possibly influencing food demand and the effect of clothing.
(Opinion) DOMESTIC BERRY BUSHES? STILL NOT WORTH IT:
Now that composting is necessary for carrot farming, and berry bushes are necessary for composting, is it now worth the time and effort to plant domestic gooseberries? I'm still not sold on it. Think of it this way: a vigorous domestic gooseberry bush will, in one hour, produce 6 gooseberries simultaneously! However, you only need 4 berries to make a bowl of gooseberries for composting. Wild gooseberries have the same production capacity, with the major difference being that wild bushes generate berries once every 10 minutes. In other words, when timed correctly, a wild gooseberry bush can generate 3 new soil every 40 minutes instead of every hour. That's 33% more efficient! Perhaps this would help in wetland farms, but most farms wouldn't need that.
MICROFARMING:
Who says farms need to be super-efficient? To optimize for long term success, they need to be ready for the next generation. With xoomorg's idea of wetland-specific microfarms, the goal becomes having a small area for new travellers to advance through the tech tree quickly in the comfort of a pre-built guaranteed food source.
THE NEW GOLDEN RATIO:
Worked out by PastaFasta55, the new epitome of optimization comes in the form of the good old 4:1 ratio. Best of all, it's intuitive!This optimization takes advantage of how seeding now takes twice as long as harvesting (while providing double the seeds) to grow 4 carrot rows twice for every seeding carrot (BONUS! You have one seed leftover for giggles). Sustainability worked out here.
Graphic below:
PUT SOME CLOTHES ON:
As can be seen above, the benefits of clothes are undisputed. Even putting on a loincloth and a hat (3 furs, 4 milkweed total) can reduce your food intake by 33%. When you add a shirt to it (4 furs, 2 milkweed extra), you've cut your food intake by half. That's crazy!
PAYING THE PIED PIPER (EDIT: hehehe, OH THE IRONY):
I've been hearing lots of things about the usefulness of pies. Plutocrats with their wool sweaters boast of their resourcefulness while chowing down on their pies like they own the world. Well the world is laughing at you, because pies are useless! With the 4:1 farming ratio, you produce roughly 36 food per min, while using 1.1 water per min and 8 plots. Water is the critical bottleneck right now, so optimizing for that will be, well, optimal.
Carrot pies provide 32 food, and berry-carrot pies provide 76 food (counting the extra berries). That means, to equal the same food output as raw carrot farming, you'd have to make 1.13 carrot pies per min OR 0.48 berry-carrot pies per min. The dough from wheat alone requires 2 water units, so we can rule out carrot pies (as water used would be greater than 1.1 per min). Factoring in berry farming (which uses 1 water more per pie), we arrive at 1.46 water per pie (still doesn't factor in water for carrots). Rabbits might overcome this problem, but do you really want to harvest 30 rabbits every hour? How is that sustainable?
So my point is proven, I believe, that pies are less efficient than farms. Granted, if the food bonus is lowered, then pies MIGHT become more efficient. But how efficient? Some preliminary calculations tell me that the bonus would have to be ELIMINATED before it becomes a better option. So, in the interim: enjoy your carrots, plebs.
CORRECTION:
I will be posting this in a future update, but the discussion in the forum and more detailed calculations have shown me that pie-making outright more water-efficient than carrot-farming. However, pie making (when using domestic wheat) can create intense soil requirements (especially carrot pies, or berry pies of any kind). Modern Survival emphasizes sustainability in reverence of the Tenets, and as such, composting soil for those pies can become especially water-demanding.
If you have more than 6 ponds within 20 seconds of you, and you aren't hurting for wild berry bushes, rabbits, or compost: than by all means make pies. Pies, in terms of productivity and ease of use, have loads of benefits that carrots don't have. You can stuff 3 pies in a backpack and be a shepherd, trapper, forger, without the inconvenience of interrupting your work every 3 minutes to grab more food. I believe I've done the community a disservice by not emphasizing the role of sustainability in my calculations.
Also, wool keeps you warm less effectively than fur. I hadn't done any research on it and just assumed it was a higher-tier clothing option. I was also incorrect on that.
[sarcasm]If you're interested in learning how to make a fool of yourself (its really quite fun),[/sarcasm] then please read the thread in its entirety. I deeply appreciate the challenging discussions from Matok, Commoners, Potjeh, PastaFasta55, Tebe, and asterlea. With intelligent discussion, integrity, and a desire for truth, we can conquer all problems together!
Wait...hang on. I really enjoyed your post until I realized that it is kind of useless (I think, correct me if I'm correct.
Every farm requires an initial investment of some amount of seeds and at least 9 minutes. Maybe you could just start out with 3 plots, leave 2 for growing.
It'd be interesting to see how many naked people can be fed with ~40 carrots per minute.
You newer whipper-snappers around here haven't seen our previous discussions about this.
https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=293
https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=320
https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=191
The easiest solution I see to this is that an Eve only gives birth when in the presence of an Adam. Meanwhile, grown Eves and Adams spawn in equal proportions, preferably in pairs together.
Fate has dealt me a cruel hand. When I've lived, my mother usually dies and I'm a male.
If someone is holding a loaded bow or a knife, that's probably a sign that they want to use it. They have to be close to you to kill you, so keep your distance.
I stumbled on a totally walled-off milkweed garden that was luxurious and protected from filthy industrial hands.
That is some devious shit.
That's a good point, haha. I suppose that is actually the biggest obstacle to implementing it.
But in my defense, if this game were theoretically on another planet, its totally possible for a planet to have a rotation thats so slow it takes a few years.
At the very least, I think it could be an organic way of keeping biological time. If a full cycle was, say, 10 minutes, then we could better keep track of how old we are, and I wouldn't have to use a stopwatch. While there are obviously physical signs of aging, it would be most helpful during that middle period where few changes occur. I would likely plan differently knowing I had 30 years left as opposed to 20.
I love this idea! You've given it some good thought, no doubt. While it would make a great intro mechanism to keep fires going, if I remember right, animal lard was the predominant source of wax. Now that we have boiling water for dyes, I bet tallow and such will be coming soon, such that it could be a really industrious way to produce wax.
Right. Sorry, I see that now.
I didn't mean that rabbits were viable and sustainable in the long run, I definitely agree with you there. I was referring to the initial struggle to survive, when you're a hapless Eve first dropped into the vicious snare of Eden.
It doesn't make sense to be so cold during the day and use up so much food. While obviously surviveable, it creates a steep learning curve, especially with the new update. This could be fixed by making a day night cycle where daytime temps are slightly warmer, but nighttime temps are colder than what we see now. This maintains overall difficulty balance while creating a window of opportunity for advancement.
Obviously, the biggest problem with this is that players born during the night would have a harder time surviving. I suggest maybe having the different servers be on different times, and births could only happen during the day?
Something like this:
Server - Time
1 - 0
2 - 2
3 - 5
4 - 7
5 - 10
6 - 12
7 - 15
8 - 17
9 - 20
10 - 22
At this point, births might only happen between servers 4 and 9.
I believe this is the next logical step that Jason had in mind, making berries worth more food than carrots. In order for a successful village to begin, we can't be a monoculture and focus solely on carrots. I had limited success on one life by transitioning more to rabbits and berries from only carrots.
Did you find the clothing in the village too? I imagine that probably made it easier.
What is that vat tax? 4-5€? So, Jason should take time away from content and programming to install a new payment system (with a currency that could be worth tomorrow half of what it is today), because some people don't want to give their government a few extra dollars?
Vat is mandated by the EU, with rates determined by its member states. If retailers aren't charging it for purchases, it's because they already included it in the cost of the game.
I just want to chip in here, and say that defects are actually more common in urban settings...
This is false. Disability is correlated with poverty and age.
http://www.globalization101.org/world-r … ability-3/
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/articl … ne.0012129
Jason also updated domestic berries to give us more food than wild type. When they're taken care of, they can live forever, right? It seems like incorporating domestic berries into a growing farm will have to be the way to adapt to the carrot seeding problem.
There have been stories and legends of biome changes, tile by tile. But no. Ultimately, anything you make and place into the world is there forever. It's kinda weird to think that some joe schmoe could be using the same exact hammer I made a few days ago.
What does this mean? I'm not program-language-savvy, but I expect it means that the food bar is improved less by eating and thus more food is needed overall.
https://github.com/jasonrohrer/OneLife/ … a755678f4c