a multiplayer game of parenting and civilization building
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jcwilk wrote:Ah i didn't realize that bells had the ability to move the eve spiral... Does that happen every update? There's no bell that far north though. The highest bell is at y=1686 and the spiral was fine prior to the update
I don't know all the conditions by heart, but last bell is one of the conditions. It pulled the eves back east a bit during a couple of the recent updates. It's not that the north bell is super far up, it's that it was far enough outside the typical bounds to confuse the algorithm once we got moved up there.
Got it, thanks for the info. Maybe this would be a good time to get him to change the way the eve spiral works entirely since marching westward endlessly is absolutely awful as it guarantees everything turns to unreachable dust within the week.
Also relieved that no one managed to get that far north on their own lol, I got a family a good 4k or 5k or so away from the bell one time and it was quite an ordeal... People get very bored of running very quickly lol
If zoom mods and others are removed you wont need to ban me, i will leave voluntarily.
That being said features in some of the mods should be highly considered to be added to vanilla. Specifically zoom, age meter, and accurate distances.
Accurate distances would be pretty trivial to mask from the client, not sure why he hasn't done that if he likes it not being in vanilla. Biggest things for me are probably hotkeys and search, I've always hated just using the mouse... Makes it feel like one of those cheap rushed mobile ports where they just replaced touch with the mouse and didn't get around to utilizing the keyboard at all. Search is probably the most cheat-y feature and pretty impossible to prevent but goddamn it's useful
jcwilk wrote:Now donkeytown is -20k,40k from one of the bells... the hell is going on with the eve spiral? I checked the recent commits and I didn't see anything suspicious... so weird
It's not a code change. The northern bell town moved the eve start point much higher than expected during the last update, and the code doesn't handle being out of it's expected area correctly. We took a jog south, started to zag, and then kept going north.
Ah i didn't realize that bells had the ability to move the eve spiral... Does that happen every update? There's no bell that far north though. The highest bell is at y=1686 and the spiral was fine prior to the update
DestinyCall wrote:When was the last time you saw someone use property fences for anything other than sheep pens? They are pretty much already dead content.
Jason mentioned his attempt to use private property a few weeks ago, as an attempt to demonstrate that private property can make it more likely that your children will survive *in OHOL*. He got killed by some posse who shouted things like 'PROPERTY IN COMMON. SHARE BY ALL" as I recall him saying.
Jcwilk used property fence for his 'bearena'.
There's a property fence bear pen in WBSteve's video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXAiuPi1-Gw
The bear run video was me also xD didn't know he was recording. if you see someone doing weird symmetrical shit with property fences it's probably me
Now donkeytown is -20k,40k from one of the bells... the hell is going on with the eve spiral? I checked the recent commits and I didn't see anything suspicious... so weird
voy178 wrote:DestinyCall wrote:How do property fences work? They are just flimsy sticks stuck in the ground but they are stronger than a stone wall. It makes no sense.
It's stronger than a stone wall because people just can't be nice and play along.
Yes, but how does it work? According to Jason, property fences work like homesteading. You stake your claim to a particular area, and if the community doesn't tear down your fence, then it gains legitimacy as private property over time. But if you get trapped inside of a property fence, why can't you just step over the sticks and escape? I can see how a law-abiding citizen might respect the sanctity of another man's property and refuse to enter it to grab that hoe he wants ... but why would anyone choose to die inside a knee-high fence rather than LEAVE someone's claimed property?
It seems to me that property fences should work more like specialty biomes. The area defined by the fence and property gate should be a "no touch" zone that prevents non-owners from interacting with items on the ground and in boxes or on tables, because anything inside the fence "doesn't belong to you". The way that property fences work doesn't actually make logical sense, either real world or based on the in-game concept it is trying to achieve.
It shouldn't be no touch, it should be touch is a crime. It should make you move slowly like bloody hands and make a !! thingy like that too so people can know when someone is trying to steal.
Preventing people from entering but not leaving would be difficult to get to work because think about an airlock property fence door. The inside door leads to an enclosed space on either side, so should it block from entering, block from leaving, or not block? How does the game know which direction is leaving and which is entering?
Maybe it could say if the enclosed space has no other doors then don't block them in, but then there's probably some circular situation where a series of rooms has multiple doors but they all lead to each other. Even if some super complex rule was determined it would be very difficult to understand for players to use and to figure out how to make a fence so their stuff stays protected
jcwilk wrote:Punkypal wrote:As I said in another current thread, anything regarding the cursing system that gives the individual more power to curse is apt for misuse and abuse. The solution to fix the system is to make the power of the community stronger, not the individual. 10 people all cursing 1 same player should have a multiplying effect. 1 curse should have the power of only 1, but each curse beyond that grows more powerful. By the time you have 10 curses, each one against you is over 50x stronger. The only way an individual's curse should get more powerful is if others also curse the same person you have cursed. That's how it should be.
Not running out of lives in itself isn't a problem to be solved. Griefers having less lives isn't really a fix for anything. I imagine a griefer doesn't have much need to use /DIE or suicide anyway. Very few go on murder sprees at young age, and even when they do and maybe are killed around age 20, they would still be regaining lives fast enough to not reach zero. I assume they aren't playing 24 hours a day that is.
Your final paragraph sounds like what you want is for the curse system to be turned into a griefers tool. No thanks.
And as I said in that other thread, I don't think you understand what cursing does. Number of curses is irrelevant and there's no "power" of curses to scale. Cursing is basically like a block feature, imagine someone saying "if five people block you in discord then it should be as if 10 people blocked you" it doesn't make any sense.
I do know what cursing does, and what it does is basically nothing. I know it's a brain buster but I'm suggesting CHANGING how curses work so it does something. Let me try again and I'll explain this time in great detail and teaching basic math also and I'll hope you have the ability to comprehend. I'm going to walk you thru it in a basic terms as I can.
Lets's say you get one curse. Your account would note you have ONE curse from ONE player. That curse would have the effect of one curse with the ban radius of one curse. (as it is currently).
Now lets say you get a SECOND curse from another player. Now your account would record that you have TWO curses. The game would do this math to see the effect on you: 1 (for the first curse) x 1.5 (the multiplier applied by the second curse) = 1.5 total. The 1.5 total would round down (always round do to nearest whole number), so now each player's curse against you still has a normal radius as is currently, but there are TWO players you can't be born near (still the same).
Now lets say you get a THIRD curse from a third player. Here is where curses against you would start to amplify. The math is 1 (for the first curse) x 1.5 (multiplier for the second curse) x 1.5 (multiplier for the third curse) = 2.25 total. 2.25 would round down to 2. What this would mean is that THREE players would exist that you can't be born near, but now the radius away from them is DOUBLE, for EACH PLAYER who had cursed you.
Let's go in to a FOURTH curse. The math is 1 x 1.5 x 1.5 x 1.5 = 3.375. 3.337 That rounds down to 3. So now there would be FOUR players you can't be born near, except the radius is THREE TIMES as large for EACH PLAYER as having only one curse would be from one player.
Do you get it now? I am aware this isn't how it currently works. Jason would have to CHANGE it so it works this way. If he did make it work this way it would be possible for a person who have MANY curses against them to actually be sent to Donkeytown, or at least be FAR away from who cursed them. Currently there is virtually no way to be sent to Donkeytown (I mean there is, you'd have to have curses from well over half the player base for it to happen. Considering some players never use curse, it pretty much can't happen). Also as it is now someone you cursed can be born so close that they can run over to where you are in about 60 seconds. With this system, someone with 6 or 7 curses still probably won't go to Donkeytown due to how spread out players tend to get, but they at least would be so far away that they are much less likely to be back near who cursed them. At 7 curses we are talking 2,200 tiles away. Yea, they can still get back, but it will take them a third of their life. That's 20 years that they can't be destructive. And if they run all the way back and get cursed again, next time they are 3,400 tiles away. It wouldn't take long for cereal griefers to be gone from your play area entirely. At least until your curse against them expires.
One player curseing the same person more than once would NOT increase their multiplier. It would only refresh the expiration time for that players curse against them. The multiplier is only for each active curse from each additional player. If you log on and there happens to be NOBODY online who had cursed you, it would be as if you had no curses (just as it is now) and you could be born anywhere. But of course, the more players that have cursed you, the less likely that this is to be the case.
And for the record curses are nothing like a block feature on Discord, Unless Discord has some way that someone you blocked can exert less than 60 seconds of effort to undo your block. OHOL all a player has to do to get "unblocked" is run back to wherever you are. That can be very quick and easy.
TL;DR - but i skimmed it to see that you backpedaled your suggestion to be talking about curse radius rather than number of curses, something previously unmentioned. Your previous suggestion makes zero sense, your suggestion about curse radius makes some sense although there's still the odd wrinkle of whether it's curses from players online or curses from players offline also.
Changing it to take into effect offline players is a pretty big change because it changes the feature from being a neutral blocking system to a punishment system, which Jason explicit said it was not in one of the posts about it.
Making it be only online players is also odd because suddenly when Jimmy comes online, Bob's radius gets larger. Why does the cursee get more deeply penalized in a part of the map that has nothing to do with Jimmy just because Jimmy came online? And imagine trying to determine whether the system is functioning correctly or not, people with barely any curses on them could suddenly be shot to DT just cause the 6 people (perhaps griefers) that cursed him are all online at the same time.
For a game where player driven chaos is a desired element but where someone should be able to minimize the amount of time they spend playing with someone they don't like, the existing system is fine but the timing might need help. Two hours of gameplay is kinda long for a new token, hence why i like jasony's general direction.
Yeah, donkey towns goes out with the same sign as the base coordinate. We went from spawns below 0 to spawns above 0, so donkeytown flipped.
So does it flip between sw and nw every time the eve spiral dips above and below y=0?
As I said in another current thread, anything regarding the cursing system that gives the individual more power to curse is apt for misuse and abuse. The solution to fix the system is to make the power of the community stronger, not the individual. 10 people all cursing 1 same player should have a multiplying effect. 1 curse should have the power of only 1, but each curse beyond that grows more powerful. By the time you have 10 curses, each one against you is over 50x stronger. The only way an individual's curse should get more powerful is if others also curse the same person you have cursed. That's how it should be.
Not running out of lives in itself isn't a problem to be solved. Griefers having less lives isn't really a fix for anything. I imagine a griefer doesn't have much need to use /DIE or suicide anyway. Very few go on murder sprees at young age, and even when they do and maybe are killed around age 20, they would still be regaining lives fast enough to not reach zero. I assume they aren't playing 24 hours a day that is.
Your final paragraph sounds like what you want is for the curse system to be turned into a griefers tool. No thanks.
And as I said in that other thread, I don't think you understand what cursing does. Number of curses is irrelevant and there's no "power" of curses to scale. Cursing is basically like a block feature, imagine someone saying "if five people block you in discord then it should be as if 10 people blocked you" it doesn't make any sense.
Yeah confirmed. Especially noticeable in combination with curses. Being cursed out of certain areas will make you spawn to a far away mother 10 or more times in her same life as fast as you can starve.
Possibly related, the donkeytown location has also changed from SW to NW... Happened right after the update. Donkeytown is pretty intrinsically tied to the eve spiral since you're always eve there.
Both terrible ideas. Making the curse of any one person stronger or giving single players more curses are recipes for abuse.
The solution is to make getting multiple curses against you from multiple players have a compounding effect.
example:
1 curse is = 1
2 curses = 2
3 curses = 3
4 curses = 5
5 curses = 7
6 curses = 11
7 curses = 17
8 curses = 25
9 curses = 38
10 curses = 57This way, your average player that gets a few curses for random miscommunications or as as "payback" from a griefer will see little effect as currently in the game. A real serial griefer with 10 curses will face the real possibility of having no mother they can be born to and will actually end up in donkeytown.
This doesn't make any sense. The number of curses doesn't matter, only who's cursed you and whether they're near the fertile mother in question or not. There could be a thousand people who have cursed you almost all across the map but if there's still one asshole mother on a horse riding around 200m away from everyone else and hasn't cursed you then you'll be born to her every time.
The OP idea isn't bad but I'd say maybe just shorter restock timer rather than many curses at once. Also genetic fitness has to be fixed, as Sigmen said, it's a complete bullshit rating system that only rewards people for playing a lot. Jason only made one adjustment post-release, it's still completely broken and meaningless.
online? rpg? I can't think of any
maybe Albion online has similarity to that with different professions, cause it's a huge tech tree where you need to choose in order to make anything good
Online multiplayer browser: the west. Back in 2006ish was fun, I played travian and clan wars and was refresshing to go to a semi casual style, but you get bored of it quick I guess.
Single player: there is a point and click game which is quite similar to ohol, virtual villagers. It was even free on giveaway sites. It's just a few puzzles but you can have 4-5 professions and figure out puzzles. It's real time progression with a few modifiers like how fast and how hard it is.
There s some other game I forgot where you could have a few skills and buy stuff, have a wife, then play as your own son/daughter to finish the missions, each tile stepped was a year and you had some genetics too.So far my personal favourite sandbox is Mount and Blade Warband. You got a huge world which simulates on it's own, every action has a consequence, even without you. Then you try to earn money, gather an army, help others to reach their goal and each relation with the lords has an effect, you either get attacked for your past sins or get off the hook by your friends, there is a complex ever-changing commerce (there are some easy patterns tho)
Haven't played mount and blade but heard great things. It inspired the combat system in Life is Feudal which is also a good rec for the thread. Survival game with quite good pvp although the property management was a little iffy
This is my favorite meme so far, made by the Thaulos
Omg... Maybe the best version of this yet, so good xD was dying
I hope we'll eventually see games like SS13 and OHOL spawn a whole new genre.
I think the main blocker right now is that making such a game is pretty hard. They're multiplayer, but at the same time they need tons of content. So you have to isolate the game logic from the other hard parts like networking.
Content is trivial, getting the mechanics right is the challenge. I think sandbox pvp mmos are by far the most difficult to design because of how complex all the permutations of play are. OHOL kind of cheats the challenge by making wipes a regular thing and by moving people around and sidestepping the ownership complexities, imagine how much more complex things are when people expect to have some mechanic to hold on to a piece of the world without blocking others from being able to play.
Check out haven n hearth, it's similar in a lot of ways to ohol but a lot more hardcore and no family stuff just wilderness survival, town building and defense, etc. I think it's still got some momentum but it's been around for awhile and has gone through a few iterations.
I haven't actually played it myself but played its sister game, salem, extensively which is a slightly more hardcore pvp oriented spinoff which eventually got bought by the clan that was dominating it so hard it made the Chinese government look friendly and good natured in comparison. Sadly they stopped development on it a couple years ago so it's quite dead now.
A straight branch
Gomez wrote:NOBODY likes vanilla minecraft. At least not in multiplayer version.
just gonna jump right in here to say that i love vanilla minecraft in multiplayer, dont assume my tastes!
Same, I put countless hours into my server with a few friends... Had a computer functional enough to count upwards or downwards via data encoded in a delay loop signal, lots of monster spawners some based on dungeons others just darkness, golem iron farm, self-harvesting wheat farms. Never saw the need for mods, there was already so much to do with vanilla even back when golems were new
I've run out of lives a few times from /die spamming to try to get back to the right village a few lives in a row. Someone in the village had probably cursed me.
But yeah it shouldn't be possible for a bb under 3 to kill themselves, or there should be a significant penalty for doing so, presumably to meme score, or perhaps /die burns through 3 tokens or something like that... Otherwise /die spamming is way too attractive when you have 24 lives locked and loaded.
Probably about half the births i see end up being SID which is ridiculous.
And yeah, bbs can't move for the first bit but when they can they're extremely difficult to pick up. They should be forced to wait for a second in-between movements to make it so a mother can't be forced to endure the gene hit (SID affects the baby not the mother, running off affects both)
Anyone know whether SID or running off affect a mother's likelihood of giving birth again? I vaguely remember talk of bad mother points that only last through your own life when too many of your children die but I'm not sure if that was implemented or removed or whatever
M night twist - the fact that you can walk up to someone and stab them for no reason and then seconds later have them spawn as your bb patiently awaiting the perfect moment to strike in vengeance... might actually be why that many people play rather than fewer
Always go west IMO. East is likely towards old cities which probably have gutted resources and are dangerous for new players (many of your descendants will be new players) since they won't realize how far they have to run to find food when they're surrounded by what seems to be a rich, albeit empty, city. Also the eve spiral will continue to go further and further from you and eventually it will be too far to reach or be reached by other families, and then it just takes one griefer to end everything.
If you go west then eventually the eve spiral will catch up with you, or you'll catch up with it, and you'll be nearby to wherever the current bell is and are less likely to have your village abandoned and die out (unless they choose to abandon it which they might regardless)
So basically cursing does nothing and killing does nothing to stop serial griefers. Players can grief as much as they like without any real consequences.
It is super depressing how little progress has been made on this issue over the last year. I was really hoping that the 30 day timer would make a real difference, but it sounds like the curse system is just plain broken yet again.
People don't play consistently enough. If 6 people curse you only at most 2 of them are going to be playing next time you hop on, and people don't curse as much as you'd think they would. To really be locked out I think you'd need dozens of curses all from very frequent players, but if Jason wanted them to be banned for that behavior then he would have implemented a reporting and banning system, but he hasn't, and so he presumably doesn't.
Punkypal wrote:It seems Jason thinks it's balanced because there are maybe 10 builders for every one griefer, so it's OK for griefers to have 10x more power to destroy.
This is blatantly false. Destruction is much harder in relation to creation(many items are difficult or impossible to destroy, like ancient walls or waystones)
In reality, destruction is much easier than creation but Jason seems hell-bent on making it require much more work to undue what others have done.
From where I see things, it seems like you can either making things hard to destroy, in which case people will use creation to grief. If you make things easy to destroy, people will use destruction to grief. The natural state is destruction being much easier, so I favor making things like waystones easier to destroy.
I think they meant destruction in a more figurative way... Like destroying someone's creation which may involve creation of a giant pile of donkey shit in the middle of it.
It's important to keep in mind that the game is more than just a sandbox, it's also a functional complex game which means that things like waystones actually have a purpose (an information/navigation hub which outlives everyone involved in its creation) and making them easy to destroy would compromise that purpose. Making them non-blocking (mostly) solves the griefing issue without compromising the utility. They probably also ought to be a lot more difficult to create since something that lasts a long time ought to be quite difficult to make.
It's so cute that you guys still think Jason couldn't have figured out how to get rid of griefers by now. Donkeytown is a fun vacation, barely a slap on the wrist. Ohol is basically a game about creation vs entropy, players take part in both processes
Yet another +1 for bbs to follow mama
Or, crazy idea, we could just have bbs automatically follow mama like everyone wants but Jason is way overfocused on titles meaning something which they absolutely do not.