a multiplayer game of parenting and civilization building
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fences should at least cost kindling and not be spammable.
Nobody would waste the time it takes to gather all that kindling. And anyone that wastes all those axe uses should be killed. Kindling is way more useful to the community as fire and charcoal. He could have made the twigs one-bundle-per-tree, so they weren't magically easily infinite. Could have given an actual use to the currently useless trees, even.
Since he's adding a way to have property my bet is he's going to change how the game works so property actually makes sense
How? How would he do that? He's already stated in another topic that we're not going to get extended life, because one hour is 'what's on the can'. There are two fundamental issues: You only have one hour, and nothing is limited but iron. He can only address the one hour thing by allowing people to chain back into town. That will STILL require that your decendants grant you access.
The resource situation is fixable but frankly Jason has so far displayed a pretty terrible grasp of resource tree setups in survival games. Just think of all the dead (at best - when it's not griefing tool) content that exists in this game - cards, dogs, dice, fish, pine panels, pork, potatoes, on and on. Do you see people growing tomatoes and onions much anymore now that the 'new content' sheen is gone? How about radios and cars? Built for any other reason than boredom? He's continually favored marginal to useless content vs the actually useful stuff that people ask for. Your faith that Jason is going to 'fix property' is kind of a long shot. If he knew how to do that, I think he would have made the property first, then fences. It's pretty apparent he's just tossing this into the wind and seeing where it blows.
cause we have to have a property option, the gameplay is stuck without it
We don't. Players do not live long enough to make this of any use, and there is nothing worth owning individually anyway. The idea is full of imbalance and griefing potential. The fact that Jason is using a game like Rust (which is nothing like ohol) as precedent for this tells you how this is going to fit in ohol.
yes, but IRL our life doesn't last for only one hour
several hours IRL are not even a sec in OHOL, so immediately
That's a silly justification. The game isn't even remotely accurately time scaled - it can't be. Does it take multiple years for carrots to grow irl? You start a fire irl does it go for 5 years on a pile of wood you can carry? Does it take an ingot of heated steel 3 months to cool down irl? irl time scales have nothing to do with OHOL. Game mechanics running smoothly are way more important that trying to scale game time to irl.
If you move poop to pigs, then you have poop and wool produced on different animals, independent of each other. Poop pocalypse addressed. So no more 'too much poop because people want wool'.
Then, after that if clothes are too expensive, reduce the cost of clothes. The notion of having one sheep produce 10x the wool is silly.
Two separate issues, two separate solutions.
Only moving poop to sheep does not cover all our needs. Still, making clothes would be tedious.
That's a separate issue from the 'poop apocalypse', and easily addressed in other ways that have nothing to do with poop.
good luck with that
Good luck with what? It addresses the issues. You do realize that when you build a brick wall irl with mortar, it takes that mortar several hours to solidify? You can literally push over a free-standing masonry wall irl right after it's built.
I think the point Booklat is trying to make is the same he and I made in another thread: When sheep produce so many resources, you're going to have an over-production of at least one of them. Move poop to pigs. Then pigs and sheep will both be able to produce meat, and 1 other thing that doesn't require their death. Then you won't have excess. After they're grown, you just feed them when you want their non-death product - you don't get 2 things every time you feed them, 1 of which you probably don't want. If you want their meat you kill them. Players can then control what is produced perfectly and nothing needs to be nerfed (feed might need rebalanced maybe)
Ya true, I guess that way you only need one food type for each, since they'd each have one product that doesn't require them to be killed, and one that does. Which gives players the control they'd need.
its a fun idea, but breaks balance even more
No more than the overabundance of mutton was really. Dung can only be considered 'free' when it's a byproduct of other things people want more. it's technically far from free. This sort of imbalance is bound to happen when you have one creature producing three resources via a single pathway. It even happens with rabbits, whose fur is more valuable than the meat, so you end up with piles of rabbit corpses. And rabbits only produce 2 resources.
With sheep, honestly Jason should just remove mutton from them entirely, and make pork pies a thing. Then maybe have 2 different feeds for sheep, one of which makes dung, and one of which makes fleece. Give players control over what they produce, and have better control over the game balance.
Hell, since we're getting pens that need a time to become solid, he could just extend the same mechanic to stone walls - once installed they're unstable for maybe 10 minutes, during which time removing them costs just 1 pick use instead of the whole pick. After those 10 minutes they become stable walls that take an entire pick. Seems a lot simpler.
Ultimately, there isn't much point to gathering in excess of your own needs, since you will die soon and probably never return.
Based on the whole graves-as-return-mechanism discussion in one of the other recent brainstorming topics, I think we're eventually going to get the ability to return to your village - Jason responded positively to that idea. Although it's not clear if there will be any way to come back in the specific branch of your family that descended from your earlier life. But if we assume that might be possible, in that context, you might actually make it back to use your stuff again, provided your interim descendants didn't screw it up.
So if I lay down a bunch of property fences in the wilderness, and leave them in the non-blocking ...Can someone else claim them? Can someone else claim them before I die, if I didn't come back and reset them before x minutes?
Jason explained this already. The fences are not owned by anybody. They just exist. Anyone can 'repair them' when required. Once they become 'approved' they exist for 20 minutes but can be knocked down with a hatchet. After those 20 minutes, they become indestructible for 30 minutes. Then they become 'rickety' or something (still indestructible), and if nobody comes by and touches them to fix them up in another 30 minutes, they fall down. So basically once they become approved they could be there for up to 80 minutes, without any further 'touching up'. The last 60 of those 80 they will be indestructible. Only the gates are owned. Gates have no effect on fences.
I think that probably as a trail, they won't be very practical, because they probably won't be maintained. So they'll make a trail for about 80 minutes, and then probably fall down.
isn't everyone using oven bases for sheep pens anyway
Yes, but that's a non-trivial cost. You have to go find that clay, possibly in boar-infested swamp, carry back probably single basket at a time, maybe basket and part of backpack. also find the reeds or wheat, combine, etc. It's not nothing, it takes a lot of time compared to a never-ending bundle of sticks that I presume can be gotten from any tree? Not knowing exactly how the stick bundle works, I'd guess two or three minues to set it up with endless sticks, vs maybe up to 30 minutes depending on abundance of clay and reeds. Choice seems clear to me.
And in fact it's a strategic choice because that clay could have been used for more dishes or crocks and the reeds/straw for baskets (aside from dug tule stumps). There are many competing uses for clay in the early life of the town. Not as much after this. Shepherding is an intensive enough job that it should not be particularly difficult for the shepherd to touch a fence every half hour or whatever, they basically are all over the pen all the time - I'd say it's way better to do that, use the clay for bowls and plates, use the reeds for baskets, and replace the endless stick fence with stone or branch fences later.
And right, you still need the tools. But you don't need very many, and the shears are the only sheep-only tool, and you don't technically even need shears for compost and meat - you can get by just slaughtering the sheep for that stuff. The tools are not a big deal.
I don't think the property fence will be OP for sheep pens considering it takes maintenance to keep it up. If it isn't using the property aspect then the village will likely replace it with a more permanent fence to avoid the maintenance hassle.
Of course they will. But in the meantime they've saved a bunch of time and resources with the endless magic stick bundle.
Even just changing it from the magic infinite bundle, to having to pull each bundle of sticks from the tree and place it, get another, etc, would do something to decrease the incredible superiority of this new fence meta.
Yeah, its also A LOT of fun to get OP sheeps early, sheep era is always such a new refreshing experience, not stale at all at this point
I know right? Nothing like obliterating what once was an important milestone in town development (but will now be a trivail thing) in favor of a solution looking for a problem. You don't even have to waste water taking down the old pen now! It just falls down at your touch, or on it's own even!
@ Booklat Don't you see, we need these gated properties gen1! To protect the 3 plates and bowls and the sharp stone from the other two people in town, though you are all mutually dependant on one another for survival.
There's only one way to remove someone from a gate...
So lesson is don't give out permission to a gate without also owning a weapon. Are these gates removable by the owner(s) at all after 'hardening'? Or is it possible that I come back from an iron scouting expedition and find that my co-owner has hatcheted down the gate and installed a new one, and I'm not a co-owner now? I mean obviously it'd have to be a 30+ minute expedition probably. But still. I guess I need to install a different gate for every other co-owner, plus one that is always just me. Of course if I forget to give full permission to all to one of my decedants, now they've got uncontrolled holes in the fence. And will have to replace those gates when the owner(s) finally die. No this doesn't sound like a logistical nightmare at all.
Mousing over a gate shows you the name of the closest owner to you at that moment.
Glad you saw the value in that detail
Also, is there no way to revoke a key from someone?
The idea was intended to work within what I'd previously thought was the 'logical except in extreme cases' standards I thought were in play (but am now discovering were more...guidelines...). So no, no way to 'revoke' a key any more than you can in real life. You change the lock, or kill the person who you apparently foolishly gave the key to. If you're not sure about someone just open the door and let them in, then close it. Don't give them a key.
But I guess if 'quite a bit' harder is too much, that's your judgement obviously. But I'd just point out that if you just make locks work better and let walls be as they've been, then you save the 'quite a bit' of work for the not-fences that don't keep animals in. So then it's 'quite a bit' of work either way.
The problem with leveraging locks for this purpose, separate from the implementation issues, is that locks are useless without walls, and walls are still expensive.
I don't see the wall expense as a problem. Earlier you responded to the problem of no available elders with 'if it's that important, wait for some elders'. Well, if your stuff is that important, then spend some time and make a proper building. Add wooden walls to the game as a cheaper version of stone walls that never become ancient. Butt logs are more transportable than stone, and more renewable than clay. These tools should be available in second generation, third at worst. I still don't see what you think people need to lock up in the first two generations.
Also I would point out that even if the not-fences don't block animals, they're still objects ya? So from one unlimited bundle of sticks I could blanket an area 5 deep(?) to keep the animals in, and it'd be the easiest way to do that yet, even easier than milkweed seeds. Whether or not that'd be worth would depend on exactly how quick you can lay each bundle down though. If it takes elder approval probably not worth it.
How would you propose "fixing" locks? they work as intended.
Oh they were intended as griefing tools? They were intended as wastes of steel and time? I posted about this in the 'architect hat thread three hours before Jason made this one. Guess I'll copy it here:
If you want locks and keys to not be a giant waste of resources, you need to make ingots able to have a small part split off, like how clay nozzles are made. Give a small chance of destroying the ingot if you like (1 in 20 at most) Then the 'steel chunk' can be used to make the locks and keys. Now make it so that once they are placed, the key becomes part of the person. Nobody wants to waste space carrying around a key. That person now opens that door/chest/whatever, simply by opening it in a normal fashion. The player who 'owns' a key to that item can also make a new key for that item, by using a chisel (or whatever) on the locked item. So now you can pass keys to those you want to. Now - and this is key - if all the owners of keys or a locked item are dead, the lock vanishes. So now the worst a griefer can do is one life worth of locking up a room. Oh, and btw, when you look at a locked door or item, it tells you who owns the key(s) (maybe echoes to the room, like reading paper). So by the way you can find out the specific griefer who has locked that item. And if they're still around, kill them, thus unlocking it. The griefer can of course take off into the wilderness never to be seen again. Good riddance, griefer can enjoy their life of solitude and their lock vanishes after they die anyway. Meanwhile, town has 1 less griefer. Congratulations, now locks are convenient, not a waste of steel, and not a good griefing tool.
Note that this makes locks exactly the same as what Jason then suggested - There's no 'key' to encumber you, you can pass a copy of the 'key' to anyone you like, and the lock disappears after you die. Add free to miniscule iron cost, and it's way better lock system than now. I wasn't even sure that it was possible for a locked item to 'know' who has 'keys' on them and remember that, but that's exactly what Jason is proposing. The difference is Jason's idea has 'free and easy' fences - which sound to me like a good new griefing tool - and also possibly magical and inconvenient elder permissions. Also my suggestion requires the town to still have at least 1 ingot of steel around to pass on keys. Jason's is magically forever.
I wonder if they use some kind of AI to assign those? The eyes are coal, the grey hair of the top-right woman is a little like a waterfall. And why is there no mention of the axe, or tools? So weird
I think 'free and easy' is going to make this a bad system. I think it will make it too easy for griefers to abuse. And then fence-building will be considered griefing, just like dog breeding. I think the systems we have would work fine, if you fixed locks. Who cares if you can't 'own' anything for the first two gens until you get lock tools? Everyone needs to share everything at that critical stage anyway, or the town will die.
This coupled with mechanical code locks ...
Why bother with codes when Jason has already indicated that a locked item could remember it's owners and let them in/deny them automatically. Code just adds another layer of inconvenience. If you have permission to use the lock, the locked item functions normally for you, if you don't it doesn't. They key or code or whatever is implied, don't make people have to do yet another step.
Any resource that is somewhat remote can be walled off for 2 hours by griefers. Oil wells come to mind. Easy way to block off bear caves for a time. Easy way to wall off mosquitoes unless they can fly over. Easy way to make a road un-usable for 2 hours. Hard to know what else they'll get away with it beyond that. I think you'll end up with either people not using it, or towns will be surrounded on the periphery with inconvenient 2 hour roadblocks. Also still an easy early sheep pen.
Maybe sheep can indeed walk through any gate...
Just the gates? So I just build a huge pen of the magic fences, and then build a little airlock around the 'magic gate', out of 'real' oven bases/walls/fences etc. Still super-easy gen1 by the sound of it.
And making a fence will be infinite and easy. Just pick one bundle of twigs, and lay infinite proposed fences. The hard part is finding an elder and convincing them that this area of land should really be yours alone. But once they agree, they just walk around your fence blessing each part of it. Easy.
Well, until you said that I did think that the good aspect of this idea is that no griefer pair would bother spawning in at different times in a coordinated fashion so they'd have both an old an young griefer. After that statement, not so sure...you make it sound pretty worth.
Weapons and tools can be locked in boxes. Just fix locks so they're convenient and don't waste iron. So far the only legit things these fences would really be for would be your milkweed example, or a sheep pen, or some other critical resource. I take it you're ok Jason with people now having easy early access to sheep pens? Or can sheep magically walk over these fences, but not people?