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#52 Re: Main Forum » Mating Mechanics Would Mean Less Incest Not More » 2021-01-15 02:46:29

I think the key takeaway for the 'truthiness of premises affects the validity of an argument' is that as soon as you assert that a premise is false you have introduced a new premise and hence have a new argument. Assessing the validity of this new argument (it will always be valid because we introduced a contradiction) says nothing about the validity of the original argument. This is why validity is assessed under the assumption that all premises are true, and it's only structural contradictions that are important from a contradictions point of view.


Let's look at an argument with a structural contradiction:

A is TRUE
A is FALSE
therefore X is TRUE

This is a valid, unsound argument, as it contains contradicting premises.

Now we have an invalid argument where the conclusion does not follow from the premises:

A is TRUE
if A is TRUE then B is TRUE
therefore X is TRUE

If we assert that the second premise is false we get a new argument:

A is TRUE
if A is TRUE then B is TRUE
if B is TRUE then A is FALSE <-- this is our new assertion
therefore X is TRUE

We now have a valid argument because of the contradiction, but of course it is unsound.

#53 Re: Main Forum » Mating Mechanics Would Mean Less Incest Not More » 2021-01-14 12:35:11

DestinyCall wrote:

Out of curiosity, Cogito, what do you think of Spoonwood's conclusion regarding the validity of arguments with a false premise?

Like you say, Spoon is starting with the idea that contradicting premises can prove anything. That is, if an argument contains two contradictory premises than it is 'valid', as the conclusion (any conclusion!) follows from the contradiction. Such an argument is certainly not sound.

The reach is in the implication that a false premise necessarily contradicts the others, so that "the conjunction of the premises implies the conclusion" - or at least that is what I think Spoon is saying.

Importantly, declaring all arguments with false premises as 'valid' is a counterproductive thing to do. If I don't know if all premises are true, but I can prove the argument is invalid, then I can move on from that argument. The alternative is that we have to know the truth of all premises before evaluating the validity of an argument, which is just silly.

To steal an example from one of those quizzes, consider this:

> Jim is between fifty and sixty years old. Jan is older than Jim. So, Jan is older than sixty.

This is an invalid argument, because Jim could be 51 and Jan could be 52 and both premises would be true but the conclusion would be false.

Spoon is essentially saying "Well Jim is actually 40, therefore this is a valid argument".

By bringing this extra premise in (Jim is 40) you do introduce a contradiction, and so can prove anything, and so the (new!) argument is valid.

#54 Re: Main Forum » Mating Mechanics Would Mean Less Incest Not More » 2021-01-14 02:57:46

DestinyCall wrote:

If you have made it this far and feel like you have a strong grasp of deductive reasoning, why not take this logic quiz?

https://global.oup.com/us/companion.web … rue_false/

And if you are still thirsty for more logic, you can follow it up with quiz on validity and invalidity!    Can you spot the invalid arguments?

https://global.oup.com/us/companion.web … d_invalid/

And if you smoked the previous two tests, try this even harder (but thankfully much shorter) logic test:

https://global.oup.com/us/companion.web … d_invalid/

Enjoy smile

These were fun! 100% on all smile

#55 Re: Main Forum » Mating Mechanics Would Mean Less Incest Not More » 2021-01-13 02:43:43

DiscardedSlinky wrote:

I declare this thread over.


No more pls.

But discussing how to reason (and specifically evaluate arguments) is fun!

By the way, I haven't checked but it's very possible I used the term 'invalid' informally, informally including both formal meanings of 'valid' and 'sound'. That is, saying something like "this makes your points invalid" is really meant to mean "this makes your points wrong". If so, I apologise greatly.

#56 Re: Main Forum » Mating Mechanics Would Mean Less Incest Not More » 2021-01-11 10:46:17

JackTreehorn wrote:

I'm afraid you gents are just quibbling, waffling about a quarrel that is paltry and trite. I shan't equivocate, this squabble should surcease forthwith.

Hear, hear!

#57 Re: Main Forum » I made a OHOL quiz just for some fun » 2021-01-11 10:41:44

21! Fun quiz.

I was a bit upset I didn't get any partial credit on the multiple choice questions sad

#58 Re: Main Forum » Pig farm - Adopt a boar » 2021-01-09 14:36:38

My concern with griefing is actually about the boars being released. That's also why people kill them - to stop them from being released by a griefer once the farmer dies or goes to work on something else.

The theory would be that if you have a locked property pen, inside a non-decaying fence, you protect against both griefers and neglect. Griefers can't get in to steal the boar and release in town, and even if the property fences decay the boars won't escape on their own. Property fences now take forever to decay in any case, so I doubt it's an issue in practice.

#59 Re: Main Forum » Welcome Bakafeck! :) » 2021-01-09 14:30:13

Oh, there is also a crafting help in-game - type /thing to see the recipe for how to make thing. Tab through the options to see different steps (the steps show up in the bottom right).

It's not super intuitive, which is why onetech is so much nicer, but it can help with a lot of little things as long as you know the name.

#60 Re: Main Forum » Mating Mechanics Would Mean Less Incest Not More » 2021-01-09 14:26:45

Quibbling is the exact right term for what is going on here, as in many other threads. Thank you Destiny for finding the word I needed when trying to find the name for the equivocation fallacy! I hadn't considered that equivocation and equivocation fallacy need to be carefully used (I had _assumed_ that it was obvious we were talking about the equivocation fallacy throughout, but alas I think that was a poor assumption); quibbling is a far better term.

Spoonwood wrote:
DestinyCall  wrote:

If I am debating with you, we are engaged in an argument with each other.  One argument.  Two people.  If I use one definition for a term to describe my position and you attempt to counter, but your response relies on a different definition, we are talking at cross-purposes.   It is not possible to reach common ground, because we are essentially not discussing the same thing, despite using the same terms.  Our argument becomes pointless and circular, like Abbott and Costello trying to work out who's on first.

No, they have two arguments.  One debate, two people, two arguments.

It's ok to use both meanings of the term 'argument', both as a discussion between two people, and as a set of statements that follow logically from each other (meanings 1 and 2 at https://www.thefreedictionary.com/argument) but of course it helps to be clear about which one you mean. Let's not quibble over the meaning!

Spoonwood wrote:

When one person makes an argument and another responds with a different interpretation of some term or phrase, the second person makes a distinct argument.  So, there is no equivocation by the second person (unless that person used a phrase or term in more in the course of that argument).

The thing that you're missing here is that the second person will incorporate, often implicitly (ie without restating), one or more of the premises or conclusions of the first person. When they do that, they don't get to change the meaning of the words in just because they interpreted it differently to the intent of the first person.

In this thread when responding to Destiny about the 'afraid' statement you implicitly included that statement as a premise in the argument you were making.

1. DestinyCall claims that they are "afraid [Spoonwood is] not very good at recognizing the weaknesses in [their] own reasoning." <---- this is where you include Destiny's phrase, and misinterpret the word afraid.

2. There is nothing 'real' here to fear.

3. Therefore DestinyCall shouldn't be afraid.  <---- this is where you use a different meaning of the word 'afraid' to what Destiny used. It may be consistent with your misinterpretation, but you don't get to redefine their meaning.

#61 Re: Main Forum » Mating Mechanics Would Mean Less Incest Not More » 2021-01-08 06:44:55

Spoonwood wrote:
Cogito wrote:

One of your premises was Destiny's usage of the term afraid, which is different to how you use it in the second premise. You may not have written it out, but that doesn't mean you didn't create the equivocation when you used a different meaning in your response.

In order to create an equivocation, there has to exist a term used in multiple senses.

I didn't interpret "I am afraid" in multiple senses.

So it doesn't follow that I created an equivocation.

This argument is fallacious too!

You created the equivocation when you used a meaning of afraid different to that Destiny used. I'm not claiming you *intended* to create the equivocation, however an equivocation you have created!

Perhaps more generously, the argument that you created contains an equivocation, so the argument is fallacious.

#62 Re: Main Forum » The life of Queen Santasha: a bit of a read but funny an worth it » 2021-01-08 03:08:48

DestinyCall wrote:

It is Stew.

Stew has the benefit of not requiring animals. It is certainly hard to starve when surrounded by stew pots.

#63 Re: Main Forum » Mating Mechanics Would Mean Less Incest Not More » 2021-01-08 03:05:43

Spoonwood wrote:
Cogito wrote:

The fallacy you are looking for is called equivocation, and it is an informal fallacy; unlike formal fallacies that have flaws in their structure ("improper deduction"), informal fallacies stem from a flaw in reasoning.

Equivocation involves uses a *single* term in multiple senses, or ascribes multiple senses to a word *or phrase* within a single argument.  I only ascribed to Destiny's use of "I am afraid" a single meaning, that of fear.  Your own summary Cogito indicates that I only used a single meaning with respect to what Destiny said.  Consequently, I didn't engage in equivocation with respect to the word 'fear' or the relevant phrase, even by your own summary Cogito.

One of your premises was Destiny's usage of the term afraid, which is different to how you use it in the second premise. You may not have written it out, but that doesn't mean you didn't create the equivocation when you used a different meaning in your response.

Just to reiterate my main point, this is all irrelevant as to the actual point that Destiny was making, and your persistence in chasing these irrelevant points down while ignoring the substance of the argument is what makes it hard to discuss with you. I don't mind the diversions, but you do have points you want to communicate and the sideshow distracts from that (and distances people who try to engage with you).

#64 Re: Main Forum » The life of Queen Santasha: a bit of a read but funny an worth it » 2021-01-08 01:14:40

What a rollercoaster!

I wonder if the king's decree to dedicate the limited remaining water to berry and carrot based pies is the right choice in general.

A varied diet is the most efficent use of water (due to YUM bonuses) but that needs to be balanced against the work required to produce different foods (in addition to water) and the proclivity of the town folk to eat poorly.

So my question: assuming a severe lack of food and limited water, what is the best food-production order a leader can give that will maximise time-lived for their followers? What other orders should they be giving in addition to this food-production order?

I think Mutton Pies might be a good answer to the first, and the second is to make sure everyone has clothing - wooden shoes at the least!

#65 Re: Main Forum » Mating Mechanics Would Mean Less Incest Not More » 2021-01-08 00:59:07

Spoonwood wrote:

An error in reasoning involves an improper deduction.

The fallacy you are looking for is called equivocation, and it is an informal fallacy; unlike formal fallacies that have flaws in their structure ("improper deduction"), informal fallacies stem from a flaw in reasoning.

Roughly the argument you put forward (very informally, but nonetheless) was:

1. DestinyCall claims that they are "afraid [Spoonwood is] not very good at recognizing the weaknesses in [their] own reasoning."

2. There is nothing 'real' here to fear.

3. Therefore DestinyCall shouldn't be afraid.

Not only is this argument pointless, it falsely equivocates the very common english turn-of-phrase "I'm afraid that" with the concept of fear.

The more important thing is that this whole line of reasoning is pointless. It refutes something that was not the point of the argument, and does not engage with what was actually said.

DestinyCall made three claims - DestinyCall's advice is good, Spoonwood is bad at recognising flaws in their own reasoning, and Spoonwood is bad at admitting mistakes.

Your response was "no you don't" (negation), "you're afraid of something that isn't real" (misdirection), and "I didn't make a mistake, you just think you're superior" (diversion). These are incredibly juvenile arguments, and you can do better.

#66 Re: Main Forum » Welcome Bakafeck! :) » 2021-01-07 23:24:21

Bakafeck wrote:

Thank you so much, dude! I think most of this game's "charm" is going to be from learning through experience, so I'll smash my head into a tree for a while longer first.

You've probably seen it already, but if you haven't, the first stop in your healing-the-head tour should be onetech.info

The game is designed to have an inordinate number (hah!) of crafting recipes, so a searchable database is extremely useful.

#67 Re: Main Forum » Pig farm - Adopt a boar » 2021-01-05 12:32:51

I like it a lot, but I worry it's like leaving a big shiny engine outside the property fence - just asking to be griefed.

I wonder what options there are for making it harder to release the boar. Perhaps a variant using property fences would work, especially for the boxes.

#68 Re: Main Forum » User Story: Ch.3 Bitha Full - The Life of a Mother » 2021-01-05 10:19:21

Love the stories, thank you.

If you don't know, every time you pick a kid up you use one pip of your own hunger bar, regardless of if the child is fed or not.

The child is only ever fed if they have two or less pips in their hunger bar - if they are hungry. Picking them up while they have three or more pips will not feed them, but will drain a pip from you.

Experienced players with say 'F' when they are at two or less pips, but they will also get a hungry emote so you can see they are hungry.

#69 Re: Main Forum » Where is this game heading? » 2020-12-14 21:36:33

So, if allowing for storage around the outside, what is the best use of storage in those spots? I personally love tables, so would do something like this (T=Table; B=Box;S=Slot Box)


Storage Option

The mix of Boxes and SlotBoxes can change depending on the room use, but I prefer Tables over Boxes in most situations as it makes the contents of the container a lot more visible and 'usable'.

Also, based on the geometry of storage options, I think it is better to not have a southern door if you can help it, and to move the side doors to the top. This gives an extra 2-4 storage locations, but obviously can restrict movement a lot so doesn't necessarily make sense for things like the nursery or kitchen.

#71 Re: News » Update: Legacy Chain » 2020-12-05 13:53:39

Yeah, it just needs a way to say "Get reborn to descendants" (new functionality) vs "Start new life" (old functionality).

Who knows what that interface may look like, randomly adding an extra button is not great, but something is needed.

#72 Re: Main Forum » Dear people, » 2020-12-02 00:27:10

I value the thoughts and ideas that people like Spoon bring to the community, and I have personally noticed Spoon becoming better at communicating those ideas.

I personally love a good debate, but unfortunately there are too many bad debates.

Too many conversations that devolve into a high-school 'debate', a kind of sporting competition where it's more important to score points than understand each other.

Instead we should always strive towards 'scholarly' debates, where the primary goal is to understand what the other person is trying to communicate; one of the greatest joys in the world is the realisation that other people have thoughts and ideas that you would never have on your own, and that you can enrich yourself by incorporating those ideas into your own world view.

If you care about avoiding 'point scoring' debates the best thing you can do is make sure you understand the other person's point of view before arguing against it. I find it useful to try and restate what I think the other person is saying, in my own words, before stating why I disagree with it. This can be tricky (the person may think you're weakening their position, for example), but if you both approach the conversation from trying to understand each other it is a lot easier to get to the point where you understand each other's view.

#73 Re: Main Forum » Please help build the road (with instructions) » 2020-11-27 10:08:31

Spoonwood wrote:
NoTruePunk wrote:

I just want to build a road.

You said above:

NoTruePunk wrote:

Hey, I know y'all are using and appreciating the road, but I can't keep up with the pace of the eve spawns on my own. It takes a lot of food and lives, and sometimes I want to do other things in game.

So, I don't think you just want to build a road.

I guess you won this irrelevant point Spoon!

Seriously, it was a phrase of speech. They posted asking people to help them build the road, you go off on a tangent about the impact of building the road, and they say (paraphrasing) "no, actually I just care about the road building, not everything else you're talking about".

You then take one sentence ("I just want to build a road"), out of context, and use it to (apparently) try and score a point in some debate you think is going on. It's so painful to watch you do it over and over again - please, try and meet people at the place where they are. You should keep posting your threads about these big meta ideas you have, but this really is hijacking and the 'point scoring' just makes it frsutrating to talk to you.

#74 Re: Main Forum » Mapping One Hour One Life » 2020-11-26 04:35:57

Spoonwood wrote:

Someone making a shape of a penis, or breast or some other anatomical parts for that matter in game isn't necessarily destructive.  On the contrary, such behavior might qualify as an attempt to try to "build civilization", as art consists of one form of "civilization building" in the real world.  Or do you feel inclined to dismiss The Statue of David and ancient Greek sculpture as part of civilization?

We're talking about an annotation tool that would let you draw on Wondible's map. TTP is a legitimate concern for people who host user generated art, and my point was simply that having local only annotations, that could be shared, avoids that problem entirely.

Personally, I am very in favour of representations of penises, in all their wonderful forms.

#75 Re: Main Forum » Sakura X Ni Holiday Special II » 2020-11-26 04:32:27

Very enjoyable, looking forward to episode 3.

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