a multiplayer game of parenting and civilization building
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From the new players influx I'd be interested in how many people bought the game, played a little and then put it down for good...
Jason had looked into that in the past here. He found the attrition rate was about 50% per week.
Not your question, but another obvious fact is the overall attrition rate can also be calculated from thundersen's graphs easily:
Whenever the total active population is mostly constant, we are losing the same # of players as players that are coming in.
I'd be interested in the average murder rate per month for September through now. I'm pretty sure it's higher than 1.7%, especially if you filter out SIDS and starvation before the age of ten.
Theres also this thread, which found murder was 4.2% of the causes of death. Dated between curses and donkey town implementation.
Also if it worked as intended, I doubt yet another variant of online pvp "catch the flag" / "hold the base" would be really all that great..
I think similarly.
If this is how the game retains its cyclic nature after the game-development period ends, it'll turn the entire game into the world's worst rendition of "hold the base" while being advertised with the face of a (a the original, 1,000 ft view, parenting and) civilization building game.
I'd like to discuss a specific example. Have you seen San-Cal's university? It's a very large building with ancient stone walls and board floors, built mostly over desert tiles.
Some numbers for you. This is assuming you're in the middle of 10x10 floors, in a single biome.
With 0% ins:
Jungle 171.22367097569818
Neutral 674.8529543646326
Desert 494.2180101036996
With 34% ins:
Jungle 166.92917480926906
Neutral 540.0993030733902
Desert 620.9566859513948
This case happens to be similar to adding ~0.2 insulation.
I'll have to look at the code again, but I'm assuming it's the yum multiplier, not the yum pip bonus, that's looked at.
That's correct.
My takeaways:
When playing, don't waste time getting a perfect temperature; being half-freezing or half-burning isn't terrible.
The same amount of food (read: labor) can support 1 grass folk, 2 desert folk, or 4 jungle folk.
The best cost/reward technology for improving the warmth fertility factor is by far the desert edge or jungle tile.
Clothes can kill you.
Note this gets capped at 100% but only if its on the player's tile.
The heat code gets weird dealing with 125% insulation, but nothing super drastic.
It essentially acts as a heat magnifier.
Can't find any grame-breaking setups, though.
If you surround yourself with them in any biome, you'll overheat.
If you put it between you and a fire, you'll get even warmer.
If you put in on the grassland side of a hot or cold border, it warms you.
Edit1: If you put it on the hot or cold side of a grassland border, it creates a cold or hot area (inverting the norm)
Other cooler tricks any of y'all can find?
Thanks for all your/your colleagues' effort on OneTech!
Extra neat that every sound is hand-recorded by Jason, just like the artwork.
Might want to fully elaborate on fertility.
Your post does a perfect job so I linked to it.
Also the birth cool down sets a cap for birth rate (bell-curve-like distribution from [0 to 5] minutes with a mean of ~2 minutes, based on server code comments)
reserved for addenda
Temperature Changes from Update 195.
(the older curves are the faded ones)Yellow Fever and Clothing
It adds 8 heat to your tile, so your clothing traps it in. Yellow fever is survivable (without assistance) so long as you don't have much clothing and you go to a neutral biome (or ice is even better) quickly enough. The fever lasts 35 seconds, so if you start with all 6 pips you can survive at an average of 5.84 sec/pip.
Biome Ins% playerHeat Sec/Pip Ice 0% 0.5822 18.71 Ice 44% 0.9040 5.84 Neut 0% 0.6340 16.64 Neut 40% 0.9098 5.61due to heat latency, you might also get away with a tiny bit more insulation.
Ask questions; help me explain every detail to you all.
Please don't rant here. There's already another thread that's better suited.
Temperature is a key aspect of the game; it controls food consumption, and contributes to birth rate. And there’s a good block of server code dedicated to its calculation.
I had looked through the server’s heat code and wanna explain it to y’all in one place. Player heat is calculated by looking at heat sources/sinks (biome tiles, coals, snowmen) and heat barriers (walls, floors, closed doors, worn clothes). The calculation only looks 5 tiles North & West, and 4 tiles South & East of your player’s tile. Update v195 reduced the heatMap range to 4N&W and 3S&E tiles to save computation time. Note the player’s tile produces an additional 1 body heat (also its insulation is capped at 100%). The calculation is then done by spreading the heat to neighboring tiles, spreading less between insulated tiles proportionally. (Spreading is done for each tile 7 times, between adjacent and diagonal tiles)
The remainder of the guide remains as it was before Update v195
map
= insulation+ heat sources
= player heat
0.2833881863230042
FoodDecrementTimeSeconds = 13.335527452920168 because
FoodDecrementTimeSeconds = 2+20*(1-2*|heat-0.5|)foodPerHour = 269.9555763886703 because
FoodConsumedPerHour = 3600/[2+20*(1-2*|heat-0.5|)]
Here's the graph of that equation:Hunger and Clothing
Fertility Factor* and Clothing
*(Read: Warmth)
note Yum is an additional 0~0.5 on top of the warmth fertility. Greep explains belowYellow Fever and Clothing
It adds 8 heat to your tile, so your clothing traps it in. Yellow fever is survivable (without assistance) so long as you don't have much clothing and you go to a neutral biome (or ice is even better) quickly enough. The fever lasts 35 seconds, so if you start with all 6 pips you can survive at 5.84 sec/pip.
Biome Ins% playerHeat Sec/Pip Ice 0% 0.5063 21.75 Ice 52% 0.8968 6.13 Neut 0% 0.6346 16.61 Neut 40% 0.9100 5.599Example Heatmap
Building and Temperature
How to build the perfect house (put floors under your walls even though it looks weird)
Where to (not) put floors (desert floors cook you) ([slow] fire tiles/ any tile over 0.5 heat should be unfloored)
I realize this door placement isn't aesthetic, but normal door placement doesn't change a lot.Heat Latency
Noting that the heatmaps show the environment's heat, which you'll approach over time.
Data came from my python transcription of the server's heat code. There's official thermalSim files on the OHOL GitHub, I just didn't want to pay for the C++ language.
Graphs use data points with 0.05 step size, linearly interpolated between.
I play tested** a number of values to verify its accuracy:
Play-tested Seconds per Pip | Condition(s)
4.776, 4.800, 4.820; 4.783, 4.808 | Center of last room of tutorial 0% ins.; middle of large Neutral biome outside of tutorial 0% ins.
8.335 | center of large desert biome 0% ins.
5.761 | Center of last room of tutorial w/ shoes and bottom
8.060 | Center of last room of tutorial w/ coat, shoes, and bottom
12.365 | Center of last room of tutorial w/ hat, coat, shoes, and bottom
7.041 | Center of last room of tutorial w/ hat, shoes, and bottom
21.49, 21.53 | Tutorial fire room - tile between fire and center tile (door closed)
12.40, 12.39 | Tutorial fire room - center tile (door closed)
10.68 | Tutorial fire room - center tile (door open)
18.55 | Tutorial fire room - tile between fire and center tile (door closed) w/ 86.75% ins.**Timed the loss of 10 full pips then divided the time by 10, pressed timer at start and end so human error cancels better.
Play-tested code for Update v195:
desert at 0% insulation: ~ 11.551 seconds per pip
RGrid for room examples
RGrid for room examples
Floors, no fire
0,0,0,0,0,0,0,1,1,1,1,1,1,.85,0,0,0,0,0,0,
0,0,0,0,0,0,0,1,.1,.1,.1,.1,.1,1,0,0,0,0,0,0,
0,0,0,0,0,0,0,1,.1,.1,.1,.1,.1,1,0,0,0,0,0,0,
0,0,0,0,0,0,0,1,.1,.1, .1,.1,.1,1,0,0,0,0,0,0,
0,0,0,0,0,0,0,1,.1,.1,.1,.1,.1,1,0,0,0,0,0,0,
0,0,0,0,0,0,0,1,.1,.1,.1,.1,.1,1,0,0,0,0,0,0,
0,0,0,0,0,0,0,.85,1,1,1,1,1,1,0,0,0,0,0,0,
Floors, Three Fires
0,0,0,0,0,0,0,1,1,1,1,1,1,.85,0,0,0,0,0,0,
0,0,0,0,0,0,0,1,0,0,.1,.1,.1,1,0,0,0,0,0,0,
0,0,0,0,0,0,0,1,0,.1,.1,.1,.1,1,0,0,0,0,0,0,
0,0,0,0,0,0,0,1,.1,.1, 0,.1,.1,1,0,0,0,0,0,0,
0,0,0,0,0,0,0,1,.1,.1,.1,.1,0,1,0,0,0,0,0,0,
0,0,0,0,0,0,0,1,.1,.1,.1,0,0,1,0,0,0,0,0,0,
0,0,0,0,0,0,0,.85,1,1,1,1,1,1,0,0,0,0,0,0,
unfloored, central fire
0,0,0,0,0,0,0,1,1,1,1,1,1,.85,0,0,0,0,0,0,
0,0,0,0,0,0,0,1,0,0,0,0,0,1,0,0,0,0,0,0,
0,0,0,0,0,0,0,1,0,0,0,0,0,1,0,0,0,0,0,0,
0,0,0,0,0,0,0,1,0,0,0,0,0,1,0,0,0,0,0,0,
0,0,0,0,0,0,0,1,0,0,0,0,0,1,0,0,0,0,0,0,
0,0,0,0,0,0,0,1,0,0,0,0,0,1,0,0,0,0,0,0,
0,0,0,0,0,0,0,.85,1,1,1,1,1,1,0,0,0,0,0,0,
floored, central fire
0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,.1,.1,.1,0,0,0,0,0,
0,0,0,0,0,0,0,1,1,1,1,1,1,.85,.1,0,0,0,0,0,
0,0,0,0,0,0,0,1,.1,.1,.1,.1,.1,1,.1,0,0,0,0,0,
0,0,0,0,0,0,0,1,.1,.1,.1,.1,.1,1,0,0,0,0,0,0,
0,0,0,0,0,0,0,1,.1,.1, 0,.1,.1,1,0,0,0,0,0,0,
0,0,0,0,0,0,0,1,.1,.1,.1,.1,.1,1,0,0,0,0,0,0,
0,0,0,0,0,0,.1,1,.1,.1,.1,.1,.1,1,0,0,0,0,0,0,
0,0,0,0,0,0,.1,.85,1,1,1,1,1,1,0,0,0,0,0,0,
0,0,0,0,0,0,.1,.1,.1,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,I welcome any further playtests from y'all.
With v199 Heat Overhaul, the only thing that remains relevant is:
FoodConsumedPerHour = 3600/[2+20*(1-2*|heat-0.5|)]
Here's the graph of that equation:
See CE's explanation of the new heat mechanics
That's completely normal.
Yellow fever is survivable (without assistance) so long as you go to a neutral biome (or ice is even better) quickly enough, without much clothing.
The fever lasts 35 seconds, so if you start with all 6 pips you can survive at 5.84 sec/pip.
updating with numbers; from the python heat simulator I've been using
Biome Ins% playerHeat Sec/Pip
Ice 0% 0.5063 21.75
Ice 52% 0.8968 6.13
Neut 0% 0.6346 16.61
Neut 40% 0.9100 5.599(Playtests appreciated)
Thank you for the extra effort in sharing it!
I'm sure it will help more people than just me - in understanding the game, and practicing Python.
Curious could this also cause playback issues?
An additional benefit is that unavoidable "nocturnal infertility" will be less harsh; servers will share that load equally.
Jason's also plowed through weeks worth of user-reported issues with this update.
Among those fixes, I want to share my favorite deliberate non-update from this week:
The graphs won't lie, and I expect this change to help. Thanks for lending attention!
But there is one daily bouncing issue I predict, which can be fixed by making server 1 size be the largest or by increasing the 50% cap.
We should expect a daily cycle's maxiumum to be ~2.5x its minimum, looking at thundersen's graphs. [It might become smaller if the game spreads more into other time zones]
Therefore,
When the total player population is ever in a range where its minimum is ~28, it will daily trigger server 2 to be removed, and before it hits its daily maximum of ~70 it will trigger server 2 to be added (and doomed).
---Note this is the only range it would be a problem.
If server 2 were smaller than server 1, then this will no longer be a problem,
or if the 50% cap were increased, this should no longer be a problem.
Neat, tyvm that's above and beyond.
Interesting I think I'm seeing %birthers increase a tiny bit during infertile hours, representing increased value in mothers competing for babies.
An average birther ratio of 27.5% doesn't change the relative math much; and the exact numbers for each situation could be gathered directly from life-log data.
In summary, the problems reducing birth rate related to this thread can be ranked by magnitude as follows:
Servers bouncing on/off > /dieing to become eve > nocturnal infertility
Saw this post. Jason's server distribution seems to be at odds with his vision.
[...]Every family line is competing for babies. This is a fundamental tenet of the game. [...]
But in order to properly compete, they need a fair chance to be interviewed. By the baby. And baby-keeping strategies need to be more viable. So baby-keeping culture, whatever that is, can develop through inter-cultural competition.
Naked in Neutral 4.8 sec/pip 746 pip/hr Insulation 67.3% 8.3 sec/pip 433 pip/hr Coat & all furs 12.4 sec/pip (ins 86.75) 291 pip/hr Clothed + rug 18.0 sec/pip (ins 100%) 200 pip/hrThis values are creating crazy formula with least square aproximation of quadratic function
https://i.imgur.com/C3CHvvW.png
Would it mean, that at certain added insulation, the hunger would be even stronger than in naked state? I must be missing something!
OUTDATED
Basically, the game's heat caculation is complicated because it takes into account all squares within 4-5 of you. And complicated equations are better approximated with higher order polynomials. (or Forier Series)
edit: actually for this, you'd be interpolating based on given values, so splines might give smooth results
I made that data by transcribing the server heat code into Python, and tested a number of cases in game, but I'd welcome other play-testing to prove this data for yourselves.
The following graph was produced from the code output at each step of 5% insulation, and linearly interpolated.
https://i.imgur.com/dGxRquN.png
But Food per Hour is more informative for gameplay
https://i.imgur.com/jaxZhXU.png
Obligatory warning: don't clothe yourself beyond 40% insulation because then mosquitos will be lethal.
Very agreed.
While the tempCalc is sophisticated (in that it takes into account the shape of the environment/fires/walls),
it treats the heat from the biome/sunshine as if it were our body heat. (e.g. standing on a fire is the same as having a fever; both are trapped by clothes)
My biggest disincentive for clothing in-game is Yellow Fever's clothing-conditional lethality.
irl, computer modeling of heat transfer is common/well-studied. But for a simple game's code, a flat bonus from clothes would be a perfectly adequate solution -- closer to reality than the current implementation.
Regarding temperature, I read that thread that you just linked, and looks like jason plans on changing it according to a quote. Sooo.. I think I'm just gonna be lazy and see what he does xD
Nah, at least not in the near future. The no-temp-run update happened at the close of that thread, and was almost definitely the big change he'd planned. And while snowballs, and the jungle, and (clothed-killing) fever did break new ground, they're no real overhaul. Maybe we'll get cooling clothing if we're lucky, but they definitely don't fit in as seamlessly with the current mechanics. (cooling us down in the desert would freeze us in other biomes, and a centralizing effect would require some lines of new code)
That said, the mechanics aren't the worst they could be. You have my support if you're looking for change or not.
Thoughts on balance:
-Change clothing and temp formulae so it doesn't feel weird
I might occasionally play on this server but I'd totally help. I took some college classes on heat transfer/ modeling, and the code is close but still off from reality.
All depends on what you want it to look/feel like.
I also had a thread about the heat mechanics' oddities here if you wanna rant there.
But until it doesnt require one use of an iron shovel per potato
Icing on the cake is it takes TWO uses of the shovel; one to dig the potato, then another to set it down
(I opened a GitHub issue for the second use tho, because it looks accidental)
Perhaps, the server you were on was taken out of the cue so the only players were manual logins and replayers. (See thundersen's data)
The chat interface also takes up screen space. Which is already limited.