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#151 Re: Main Forum » Food Consumption vs Temperature » 2018-11-25 02:24:37

Out of date; see: temperature thread

Perfect temperature  22.0 sec/pip             164 pip/hr
Worst temperature     2.0 sec/pip            1800 pip/hr

Naked in Neutral      4.8 sec/pip             746 pip/hr
Insulation 67.3%      8.3 sec/pip             433 pip/hr
Coat & all furs      12.4 sec/pip (ins 86.75) 291 pip/hr
Clothed + rug        18.0 sec/pip (ins 100%)  200 pip/hr

Naked in Desert.      8.3 sec/pip             433 pip/hr
Insulation 60.1%      4.8 sec/pip             746 pip/hr
Insulation 79.2%+     2.0 sec/pip            1800 pip/hr

Naked in Ice          2.5 sec/pip            1437 pip/hr
Insulation 80.5%      8.3 sec/pip             433 pip/hr
Coat & all furs      10.0 sec/pip (ins 86.75) 360 pip/hr
Clothed + rug        15.6 sec/pip (ins 100%)  231 pip/hr

Naked in Jungle      20.3 sec/pip             178 pip/hr
Insulation 46.5%     22.0 sec/pip             164 pip/hr
Insulation 65.2%     20.3 sec/pip             178 pip/hr
Clothed + rug        10.0 sec/pip (ins 100%)  360 pip/hr

Warning: 40%+ insulation is lethal with fever even if you get to a neutral biome. 55%+ insulation is lethal even if you can get to ice.

Got a little concerned for my data. Found a post where Jason said Naked Neutral is 782 food/hr, 4.6 sec/pip. But also another post that confirms 4.8 +/- 0.15.
My in game test gave 4.776 sec/pip, and my code gives the data above, specifically 4.8206 sec/pip.
Checking my Python script. int->float didn't matter.
Retested* in last room of the tutorial and got 4.800 and 4.820(hopefully walls and and a few squares of warm biomes outside didn't matter.) Outside tutorial middle of swamp: 4.783 and 4.808.
*Timed the loss of 10 full pips then divided the time by 10, pressed timer at start and end for accuracy.

To prove the results to myself, I've play-tested this code in the middle of the last room of the tutorial with varying clothes, and the tutorial's fire room varying clothes, door, and where I stand. Also tested outside of tutorial unclothed in middle of large neutral biome, and desert. I'd welcome any other tests y'all wanna do.

#152 Re: Main Forum » Jungle outpost idea » 2018-11-25 01:40:10

Tarr wrote:
Rebel wrote:

Ugly, build with walls and you have me.

Thought you changed pein, your adobe wall sheep pens were great why not make stone walls?

Stone walls are double the cost and give heat. In this situation using walls is moot since it would put you over the perfect temp of the jungle.

Tested, insulating walls have only a small affect on your temp in the jungle.

Outside: 177 pip/hour
standing in corner of 3x3 floored room: 187 pip/hour
1  1  1  1  1
1 .1 .1 .1  1
1 .1 .1 .1  1
1 .1 .1 .1  1
1  1  1  1  1

I'm still for resource saving over aesthetic preference though.

#153 Re: Main Forum » The new mosquitoe bites. » 2018-11-25 01:23:00

arkajalka wrote:

With clothes, it's a rip. Nothing you can do. Don't know if you can survive the bite with clothes if you head to snow right away and don't even feel like testing it cause its such a waste of clothes. Especially when the clothes feel so useless. Just go naked nomad, clothes are for noobs.

If you're bit in the snow it's automatically fatal at around 55% insulation, rather than 40% insulation in neutral biomes. (max clothing is currently ~87%)

Fully gearing myself always felt like a waste of effort; it's too likely I'll get bit/mauled outside of camp where no-one will find the clothes. Now fully clothing anyone is wishing for death. One-two piece nomad has my vote.

#154 Re: Main Forum » The new mosquitoe bites. » 2018-11-24 00:56:51

Getting out of warm biomes quickly matters more than clothes.

Running some numbers, you will loose all 6 pips if your temperature stays over 0.9
With or without clothes, you have a little over 12 seconds to get out of the jungle before getting too hot.

Fever in Jungle pushes your temperature all the way to max.
Fever in Neutral biomes pushes your temperature to a comfortably warm range unless you have over 40% insulation.

#155 Re: Main Forum » Food Consumption vs Temperature » 2018-11-24 00:19:17

Noting here that the relation between food consumption and temperature based on server code is

FoodConsumedPerHour = 3600/[2+20*(1-2*|heat-0.5|)]
cBOK71i.png

#156 Re: Main Forum » Birth system idea » 2018-11-21 20:53:25

YES!

Currently, the birth control mechanic is warmth. The warmer you are, the more likely the next login will be your baby, and every mother has a chance.
But with the addition of Jungles and the lack of meaningful temperature-moderating tech, player heat is a terrible metric for our intent to have a baby.

An automatic intent-to-parent score is a smart solution, and I'd invite player-controlled tech solutions too.

But civs also collapse due to Nocturnal Infertility on lower-rung servers (server1 now has constant population with Steam, but other servers may have population fluxes)

#157 Re: Main Forum » A direction i'd like the game to take » 2018-11-21 19:20:32

Perfect description of the meta in four stages of need:
Farm
Wells
Compost
Transportation

Looking at it, I'm realizing each tech upgrade only takes one dedicated person.
By the math, this game is easy; it's the social element that makes it stand out.

For each topic, I'm with you. Plus my thoughts:
1) No civ stays low-tech because people get bored. People want to play with the environment by crafting new things.

2) RNG + Nocturnal Infertility, which used to be a bit worse before steam, I think.

3) I have no doubt he'll be pulling in more real-world challenges, I can only hope they're smart add more depth than just tedious work.

#158 Re: Main Forum » Any advice for helping out a stagnant no milkweed, no sheep village? » 2018-11-20 20:23:37

lionon wrote:

So i guess one major breaking point of many villages is the lack of building a pen early enough?

Is there an update to date guide for early pens? (Like building them from oven based, or can you make them from graves?)

Pein's got a really good guide up here

#159 Main Forum » Jungle Temperature OP! [OUTDATED] » 2018-11-19 09:00:50

betame
Replies: 3

Temperature is always way closer to ideal than other biomes.
Food consumption per hour ranges from 178 (naked) - 164 (perfect temp, clothed to 46.5% insulation) - 360 (bearskin rug and clothes).
For reference, naked in desert is 433.

Play tests from y'all?
Obviously there's balance, I just hope adapting to jungle's mosquitos doesn't cheapen the value of temperature-controlling tech.

#160 Re: Main Forum » How much does your food cost? » 2018-11-19 06:20:43

Wondering your assumptions on a couple of things like carrot seeds, and whether to till once at the cost of soil. Also maybe add two uses of shovel for every compost (moving dung).

I have my matrix like this, but it doesn't give the exact same results as you, so I'm not sure where I went wrong (looking at berry)

a = soil
b = berry
c = carrot
d = straw
e = dung
f = till
g = water
h = mutton
i = wheat grain

 a.  b.  c.  d.  e.  f.  g.  h.  i
21  -6  -1  -1  -1   0  -1   0   0 compost
-1   7   0   0   0   0  -1   0   0 berries
-8   0  30   0   0  -7  -7   0   0 carrots/seed
-2   0   0   1   0  -1  -1   0   1 wheat
 0  -6  -1   0   1   0   0   4   0 sheep

note: With the water nerfs surrounding the Newcomen Pump, essentially 40 Water ≤ 1 Axe use

#161 Re: Main Forum » Effective Teaching Techniques? » 2018-11-18 18:52:59

Personally, I always start off my children with
"Hi! You are . F for food. Stay warm here. I'll brb" [wrap up project].
"Want any guidance?" "I can teach you anything" tells me if they want to learn regardless of their experience
A tour of town is super helpful!
I always keep an eye out to teach folks who are struggling, or messing things up.
Whoever I need to teach in a life, I always try to go in logical order, with repetition (point 3 below).


Violetlily is a professional, and wrote up some great advice here
The rules apply even though children in game are adults, there's just added complexity to how they can follow.

VioletLily wrote:

Okay, so there are a lot of lovely people teaching others on the forums. You all are awesome, but I do believe this could be done more effectively at times. So I am going to try to give you some teaching tips. I'm only doing this because a lot of the information you all give is really useful and I genuinely want what you guys are saying to have the best chance of getting through to people.


As a little background info, I work with a lot with children, and believe me, there is a whole lot of teaching involved with that. I'm not perfect but there are a couple things I've learned from experience that I think could be useful to keep in mind:


First: People don't learn if they become defensive. It only makes them stubborn and less willing to learn, even if they know you are right. It is human nature.

Anything that can be seen as a personal offence will make someone defensive (eg. Anything negative directed at said person). Some people may also become defensive if another person says something that can be seen as a personal offence directed at someone other than themselves.

Anything that seems all-inclusive will tend to make people defensive too (eg. "everyone/everyone-in-said-group does this negative thing"). I know that this might sound odd, but even if literally everyone does indeed do said thing, it is best to say something like "some people" instead.

Nothing that makes a person defensive helps said person retain the information someone is trying to teach. In fact, it has this funny way of doing the exact opposite.


Two: People have a harder time retaining information under stress. Anything that adds to a person's stress level will make their learning experience less effective. This includes things like becoming defensive, being pressed for time, being spoken negatively to, etc.

This is actually one of the reasons it is so hard to learn in this game. People tend to feel rushed because their life is so short. That is why I agree with what Tea mentioned earlier about letting new players take their time learning. This is also one of the reasons why it is so important to talk kindly to people you are teaching.

Many of the smartest, most well behaved children I have come across have been those with parents who know how to teach patiently, calmly, and kindly. It may seem counterintuitive to some, but it truly proves to be the fastest and most effective teaching method - for any age


Three: Repetition can be an excellent teaching tool, especially in the absence of non-verbal communication or visual references. Say you are trying to teach someone in-game why they shouldn't eat all the carrots. You could say:

"No carrots means no compost
No compost means no soil
No soil means no food
No food means mass starvation"

This is a very simple, concise way to explain the consequences of their actions that's fits well in the in-game chat. (Skipping the first part of all but the first sentence, starting with "means", would work too, if you are young and can't say much.) The repitition of words and phrases make it very easy to remember. This is why Dr. Suess's "Green Eggs and Ham" is one of his most popular books. It's the repitition. It makes it easy for kids to understand and remember, therefore making it an excellent tool in helping kids learn to read.

As a warning: Using repitition in excess with adults could sound patronizing as it is often seen as a teaching tool for children. So use with caution outside of the game. Inside the game, it is a very fast and effect way to teach if you are short on time.


Four: Many, many people learn visually or kinetically. Simply explaining isn't enough for people who don't learn well by reading. This includes reading on the forums. So show them by having them watch you and/or by doing it themselves. Let's say you are trying to teach someone in-game why they shouldn't feed other people:

Have them eat a berry. Then tell them to eat a different food, like a pie. (Berry in bowl might cause confusion) Tell them to look at bottom left of screen. They should see a +1 by their food bar. Tell them that is yum bonus. You get it when you eat a chain of different foods. They ate a Berry and Pie. The higher the chain, the less you need to eat. Now have them eat Berry again. They broke the food chain. Now the bonus is gone. Feeding others can take away their bonus, which isn't nice.

This not only tells them, but shows them why they shouldn't feed people, making it more effective.


Five: People tend to learn to exhibit the same behavior they are treated to. This is why physical punishment isn't anywhere near as useful as people would like to think. It seems like the faster method, but it tends to cause more trouble than it solves, and should be saved for extreme circumstances if used at all.  A child who was often dealt physical punishment is more likely to become aggressive themselves. (Not to mention the phycological issues that go along with it... Please be nice to kids)

How does that translate to the game? Killing a new person who makes a mistake makes them more likely to become an actual griefer. There have probably been a few griefers who were born this way. In fact, killing at all for any reason makes others more likely to do it themselves. This is actually the greatest griefer recruitment tool. Do you want to prevent murder? Try to avoid killing anyone yourself. Again, this may sound counterintuitive to some, but please only kill if absolutely necessary (say, if someone else is already on a murder spree then you can kill him/her). Also, killing people causes them stress. See #2

Likewise, treating people well makes them more likely to treat you and others well in return.


I know these aren't perfect, but hopefully this helps. Feel free to adapt them how you wish. I can guarantee that people will be more open and receptive to your teaching if you follow some of these. Happy teaching everyone!

#162 Re: Main Forum » How to make a livestock pen 3 » 2018-11-18 18:22:51

Bump. By far the most complete and easy to follow.

#163 Re: Main Forum » Discussion about end of lines » 2018-11-18 18:16:12

Psykout wrote:
Lily wrote:

I would have to look but I am not sure that is actually true, since desert is usually really hot. I think naked in the desert is further from center, then fully clothed in grassland. Though I am not positive.

I do agree grassland should be warmer though.

you are correct about being in the middle of the desert for sure, but to skirt it and be at the most ideal state in the game feels off.... If I am head to toe covered in rabbit fur clothes in a green forest I would expect to be better off than naked on the edge of a desert.

I looked into it a while back, testing things out in tutorial and towns to verify my python heat script:
out of date, see current temperature thread

Naked in neutral             4.8 seconds per pip                    746 food per hour
Coat & all furs in neutral  12.4 seconds per pip (insulation 86.75) 291 food per hour
Naked in desert.             8.3 seconds per pip                    433 food per hour
Insulation 67.3%             8.3 seconds per pip                    433 food per hour
Theoretical 100% ins.       18.0 seconds per pip                    200 food per hour
Perfect temperature         22.0 seconds per pip                    164 food per hour
Worst temperature            2.0 seconds per pip                   1800 food per hour

I'm not sure what you meant by sealskin giving +1.75% insulation, as its weighted insulation is 10.5 as can be seen on OneTech, giving a 4.3% consumption reduction in neutral biome vs naked.

#164 Re: Main Forum » Water Sustainability » 2018-11-16 18:13:06

Some easy points of confusion were in your math:

Shallow wells do regen every 30min, but each new charge has a 6% chance to use, making it average at 16.67 water per charge.
Likewise, a pond regens about 5 water every 30 minutes
and deep wells provide about 40 water per 30-45 minutes.

Food points decrease every 2-22 seconds, as Jason explains here

jasonrohrer wrote:

In the code, the default for minFoodDecrementSeconds is 5.0

But in the server settings folder, that is currently overridden to 2.0 seconds.  Thus, the range should be 2.0 to 22.0 seconds.

(4.8s if naked in neutral biome)

#165 Re: Main Forum » Water Sustainability » 2018-11-16 17:59:52

I had that same thought about sustainability a while back, and threw some linear algebra at the question.
"Soil=Sustainablility: Composting Guide and Maths"
In an ideal case, each deep well can support at worst 1 person, and averages around 4 people.

Iron isn't irrelevant anymore though since the Oct 27 nerf for shovel (-60%), iron (-50%), soil (-12.5%), and water regen (-20%). Before steam release, we adapted to the change (the extra labor threw us off for a bit).

#166 Re: Main Forum » Mini guide: Pips per min aka calories » 2018-11-13 10:01:09

I'd note that the max/min food decrement time in seconds is set to 22-2, as Jason explained here

jasonrohrer wrote:

In the code, the default for minFoodDecrementSeconds is 5.0

But in the server settings folder, that is currently overridden to 2.0 seconds.  Thus, the range should be 2.0 to 22.0 seconds.

...

With max food capacity of 20, that currently gives you 7.3 minutes between meals if you are at ideal temperature.  Naked in most biomes, it's 1.6 minutes between meals.

I wanted this difference to be pretty dramatic.  Otherwise, why wear clothes?

I play tested some values when I was confirming my python script:
outdated, see current temperature thread

Naked in neutral             4.8 seconds per pip                    746 food per hour
Coat & all furs in neutral  12.4 seconds per pip (insulation 86.75) 291 food per hour
Naked in desert.             8.3 seconds per pip                    433 food per hour
Insulation 67.3%             8.3 seconds per pip                    433 food per hour
Theoretical 100% ins.       18.0 seconds per pip                    200 food per hour
Perfect temperature         22.0 seconds per pip                    164 food per hour
Worst temperature            2.0 seconds per pip                   1800 food per hour

#167 Re: Main Forum » the n word » 2018-10-14 01:17:28

I, Niguel Marchewka
was named the n word just now for bing the mid-toned child of a light skinned mother.
My mother stood around the domestic berries with a bow; I ran to another mom as soon as possible, explaining my case and sending tytyty. I also saw my mom take the last berry off a wild bush roll Then by the time we needed the bow for sheep, the bow and arrows had been lost.
She later called me a F*G
I asked her why for each instance. No response. Others chimed in that it was rude and ignorant.
I cursed her at the end of my life.
(After I brought in the first lamb. To the pen I made. With the bow/arrow/rope I made.)

Point being: Players who use slurs tend to be as bad at playing OHOL as they are at being empathetic irl. And they will be rejected from any community except their own.

If you don't reject them out of your community, they are your community.

For those who don't comprehend that using slurs is naive/undignified and will limit your options in life: Those slurs are meaningful, powerful words because of their historically oppressive context. Using them in a casual - non-ironic* - way is flippant of that history and makes people view you as rude or uninformed. Whether they tell you or not, they've lost respect for you (or they're ignorant too).

*@ShadouFireborn, right. Gotta be careful with irony too. I'd meant when in-group members subvert the meaning of a slur to diminish its power, to desensitize, and to satirize the oppressors. It works within my community, but humbly my scope is limited. Removed to avoid dangerous confusion.

#168 Re: Main Forum » Is Heat Working Intuitively for You? [OUTDATED] » 2018-10-07 03:22:54

Heat was updated 10/5!
For players joining after: Discussion before this was when standing on a tile instantly gave you that tile's heat (the heat you now get when you stand there for a long time) until you stood on a new tile.

#169 Re: Main Forum » Is Heat Working Intuitively for You? [OUTDATED] » 2018-10-04 00:30:15

Wow just saw this. So excited!

jasnorohrer wrote:

Cooling clothing IS possible with the current engine, because objects can give off negative heat.  Like, an ice block sitting on the ground could produce negative heat (the opposite of a fire).  An ice shirt could do something similar.  This is a bit of a stretch in thermodynamic terms, but I guess they're really just heat sinks.

I've been hesitant, so far, to use this for straw hats.... because they're not really icy or heat sinks.  But I suppose it would feel good to put one on in the desert and cool off.

However, the entire thermo model is going to be overhauled in the near future.  It's way too finicky as it stands.

#170 Re: Main Forum » Is Heat Working Intuitively for You? [OUTDATED] » 2018-10-04 00:03:56

@Morti
I like that concept and I think someone else does too...

jasonrohrer wrote:

I did like that the warmth of a fire "stays with you for a while" when you walk away.  Maybe the center cell should have memory only...

There's even a sort of framework for it in the code already; held items (even in containers), and clothes (right?? never intended to be just rValue?) can contribute to our Player Heat Output (though all held items/clothes right now have a Heat Value of 0). And there is some memory of what our last meal was too!


@Falsewall
!!! just noticed this answer from that same post way back! I still hope there's some way to correct it. Perhaps client-side calculations? Aren't we sent map updates every time we exit our map grid?

jasonrohrer wrote:

The "hold down the mouse" thing is a different issue, having to do with WHEN the server updates your temp and tells you about it (only when it sends you a player update, which only happens when your move is done).

#171 Re: Main Forum » relatable or not? » 2018-10-03 23:33:01

roflol. This has me slayed. #dead

#172 Re: Main Forum » Better cooking equipment! » 2018-10-03 23:30:15

These make complete sense and I'd be surprised if Jason hadn't thought to add more cooking tools like these to help make recipe trees.

There is so much technology in a kitchen, this could easily become a cooking farm-to-fork sim XD

#173 Re: Main Forum » Is Heat Working Intuitively for You? [OUTDATED] » 2018-10-03 10:25:53

In common, y'all believe some clothes should reduce the environment's Heat Output, or nudge it toward ~1, or at least not contribute to our rValue. Or perhaps simply move our Player Heat toward the Target Temperature.

Also buildings should better reduce the environment's effects, perhaps in a similar way to above (Bogger's suggestion would be like making the wall tile's Heat Output ~1), and floors reducing rValue.

Also for note: fur clothes were never intended to bring us to perfect temp in any biome.

Falsewall wrote:

Feel temp holding while running needs to be fixed.  Can't properly balance temp till it's done.

I see your thread on that now, and I'm anxiously awaiting with you for a verdict on that.

FeverDog wrote:

Maybe the presence of people should generate heat as well.

I'd imagined that too, plus puppies! But perhaps we'd exploit it too much if given the chance? idk.

#174 Re: Main Forum » Is Heat Working Intuitively for You? [OUTDATED] » 2018-10-02 23:53:39

Jk Howling wrote:

Since there's no day-night cycle in this, and no seasonal changes, this is mostly based on what a certain biome brings to mind when thought of, and also in general daytime temperatures. Of course, this is mostly opinion based. While I think of the lush, humid Everglades when I hear 'swamp' someone else might think of something entirely different.

I guessed similarly; where day/night cycles (730/minute) are averaged out for how uncomfortable they are. I did some quick googling to estimate irl biome temperatures, which placed the desert at extreme day-night 100-30F (or 35 degrees average away from room temp), the tundra at a yearly cycle averaging 0F, and the global average temperature for everything else at 55F.

Also I found a great analysis in defense of the current meta by Morti here

In code, they're given "heat output" of 2,0, and minus 0.15, and an additional +1 in the player's cell. This corresponds to 0.8, 0, minus 0.06, and 0.4 heat, which then get spread out to the surrounding tiles. I'm not certain assigning temperatures to these makes complete sense, but perhaps 100, 40, 35, and 70F, again, averaged out to the surrounding tiles.
I use F because it was created for weather, with earths extreme temperatures near 100 and 0.

I imagine the parallel irl biomes similarly to you.

And that strategy looks common to me; as long as you're in a desert, you don't need to worry about clothes.

#175 Main Forum » Is Heat Working Intuitively for You? [OUTDATED] » 2018-10-02 21:52:30

betame
Replies: 13

Hi! I’m here to talk all about heat!
—In OHOL gameplay, code, and IRL.

This is more of a discussion on game design rather than physics (though both are welcome). Heat* management is a core aspect of OHOL game play, since it affects food (ergo play focus), and birth rate. I want to know your feelings on:

Does your heat meter match about what you’d expect irl?
How do you manage your heat? How does it affect your game-play experiences and goals?




Upfront, I am hoping this discussion will help develop the game’s heat* mechanics, but that’s not as simple as making them closely resemble irl. There’s value in “game heat” being somewhat different from “irl heat”: biomes with fewer resources can be balanced by having moderate temperature; building something that moderates your temperature could reduce the drive for survival/food management cooperative goals; managing heat irl may not be challenging enough to make a game out of.

Shoot your questions about heat, too!

*wanted to note that heat is energy, and it’s often used colloquially to refer to temperature. Technically, temperature change = heat divided by heat capacity.

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