a multiplayer game of parenting and civilization building
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mods, please
People didn't stand on desert/swamp borders their whole life before, they mostly stood in desert because it was medium warmth, compared to grasslands being quite cold. What if settling in grass+savanna+swamp became as good as settling on biome borders, instead of completely nerfing the only way that settlements managed to work up to now, with a small desert nerf? For example make deserts as bad as grasslands. Make clothes really valuable by helping against all terrains. Why kill off jungles completely, when villages in jungles were unsuccessful and not the norm up to now?
quoted for truth
This is literally all Jason should have done, and we told him so.
Also, it is NOT difficult for an Eve camp to survive. Just go on a low population server, don't take children and Eve chain. So, no, there is no 'should' here. Not on all public servers.
Spoonwood, buddy, I love you, but that is not a surviving Eve camp. That's a camp that died when you died, and then you found it again.
I get that's how you like to play, and more power to you, but you're playing a different game than the rest of us. On any other server, there is no Eve chaining, and not taking children means your camp has failed.
Trying to address the OP:
I only started playing a couple of weeks back. Loved what I saw of the game from videos and the trailer. Started playing and it was a learning curve, but it felt manageable. I am a sucker for punishment and tend to play some "hardcore" games. But this new update has made the game far less fun to play.
I thought I was getting a civilisation building game with a survival undertone. This last update makes it feel more of a brutal survival experience where you aren't just fighting the elements and environment but now one single player can bring many hours of other peoples work to an end. If I wanted that experience I would just go back to playing Rust or Unturned where hours/days of work can be undone in a matter of minuets.
The way the game is right now feels something sick and sadistic. Is the game supposed to only be for the elite and not inviting to more casual players? The response to any complaints about the new update seems to be meet by pretentious elitists that think they are something godley because they play a game with a average population of 130 people and has lost 10% of the player base in the last 30 days.
Being Eve has always been hard and has always been intended to be hard. Jason doesn't expect that most Eve starts will be successful. So in that respect, the game is "for elite players", although it doesn't take that long to learn how to Eve successfully. New players are going to fail hard, but with some experience under your belt you can get the hang of it, and it's a lot of fun developing your Eve skills. But on the other hand, I don't think that Jason has ever intended for survival in a developed town to be hard, the occasional crisis notwithstanding. Town living has been very forgiving, allowing casuals to have fun in a variety of ways. So in that respect, no, the game is not "for elite players". However, town living requires there to be a handful of experienced players who are very productive; those few productive players carry the burden of all the casuals.
For a while now, successful Eves have built their towns on desert, because the desert temperatures were much better than the cold biomes. This made Eve starts somewhat easier, but more importantly, it made maintaining a town much, much easier. The good temperatures in the largest areas of town meant that food consumption from the casuals was low, which meant that the few experienced players were better able to support them.
The biggest change (the only meaningful change, really) in this latest update was to eliminate the good-temperature biomes. So now, the few pros can no longer carry entire towns full of casuals, and the casuals can no longer be unproductive.
I'm certain Jason didn't intend for the entire game to become "for elite players". But eliminating the good biomes has made the game much, much harder in every stage. It's not harder for the elite players, who can survive anywhere under any situations. But it is harder for the towns, and it's harder for the elite players to carry the whole towns, and as a consequence it's harder for the casuals who find themselves in these stretched-to-the-limit towns.
Casuals are going to be a lot more frustrated. They're going to have to learn how to survive, and they're going to have to work harder to ensure the town survives... or the towns won't survive.
Ignore the troll.
for f*'s sake just ignore him
It's this way with any game.
The mass of players are terrible at it, and have little reason to learn enough to get better.
Most people who would bother to read and post on the forums are sufficiently invested in the game to learn how to play well.
In crowed bigger towns the labor cost can increase massively. If I cook stew alone, I can be fast and produce stew after stew. But in a city with too many people I may take 10x the time to produce a stew. First there is no sharp stone left in the city and I don't want to steel it from other workplaces. So i get me one. Then all my bowls get stolen in the middle of making. Then someone plant milkweed in the soil i prepared for the squash seed. Then there is no more soil for a new row for the squash seed.. And so on. Labor costs can increase very high in too crowded citys and I think this can be one reason why citys dies out.
This is a powerful insight.
Might as well put the sheep indoors, too. Is there a difficult-to-remove doesn't-block-movement item that can be placed on top of floors?
That oughtta do it, yep
You can get an everlasting hot rock even without plates. You need eggs and a weak skewer.
Put the egg on the rock. Let it sit there because you have no plates. Ten seconds later you have a burned omelette. Scrape it off with the weak skewer within 100 seconds. Now you have a flat rock with its timer reset, and you have two minutes to put another egg on it.
Use a weak skewer because it won't get used up. If you use a normal skewer, after a few times it will break and you'll need to get a new skewer.
Make a weak skewer by hitting it with a round rock to make a home marker, then use a sharp stone to cut the marker down.
if walls are beyond the 8x8 grid, do they matter?
No. But note that the grid moves with you, so when you move closer to the walls, they will matter again.
to put it another way, if you are in the middle of a 15x15 floor with no walls around it, or a 15x15 room with floor, is there a difference?
No.
Or will there only be a difference for those at the sides of the room (because their 8x8 box goes outside of a floor area)?
Correct. Those near the edge of a walled room will get the full convection bonus and the full biome reduction. Those near the edge of an unwalled room will get a reduced convection bonus and will get no biome reduction at all.
What if you light a fire, will it heat up more if there are walls versus no walls?
If the fire is in the middle of the 15x15 room, no.
If the fire is near the edge, the radiant heat from the fire will be the same in both cases, but that only goes a short distance. The convection heat from the fire will be rather different between the two cases. There will be more convection heat added to each tile if there are walls than if there are no walls, for two reasons.
First, without walls, the airspace includes the tiles in the 8x8 grid that extend out past the edge of the floor, whereas with walls, the airspace stops at the wall. That means that with walls, the airspace is smaller. The smaller airspace means that the heat from the fire is more concentrated, so more heat is added to the tile you're on.
Second, the walls increase the average insulation of the airspace. That means that more of the fire's heat is retained within the airspace and less heat leaks out of the airspace (where it disappears).
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But note that biome reduction is probably even more important than either of these two convection heat effects (this is my estimate; I haven't done any calculations). And in the case where you are near the edge of a 15x15 floored "room" but there are no walls, then you will get no biome reduction at all, because your airspace includes tiles outside the "room" and those tiles have no floors, and only airspaces that are completely covered with floors get any biome reduction at all.
Standing in the middle of the 15x15 floored "room" gives you full biome reduction, even without walls, because your airspace extends only to the 8x8 grid, and that grid is entirely floored; the lack of walls don't matter.
omg genius
These gateway time-out messages happen from time to time, and they are usually short in duration. Wait a while and see if it starts working again.
Minor clarifications, not detracting from your points:
Bananas respawned for a brief time after they were introduced, but when everyone pointed out that this made Eve camps way too easy Jason switched them to not respawn.
Stone hatchets break. They have five uses, and 10% chance to use, which means on average they'll last 41 uses before breaking.
Stone hoes have five uses and 20% chance to use, for 21 uses on average. So they break more often than hatchets do, and generally get used more often as well. So it's common to see stone hoes break, but rare to see stone hatchets break. But they do in fact break, and we'll probably see it happen a lot more often now since Eve camps will have to chop a lot of kindling to keep a fire burning to keep babies alive.
When stone hatchets or hoes break, all you get is a broken stone tool. You don't get any stones or rope or wood back from it, it's just garbage that decays in an hour.
So since walls have 90% insulation : https://onetech.info/885-Stone-Wall
Bear skin rug has 95% : https://onetech.info/656-Bear-Skin-RugAnd having closed space is not practical because of tile occupation for a kitchen/forge for example,
is it better to make no walls and all the floorings bear skin or do walls have an other advantage compared to flooring?Also if you have a tile with a wooden floor/bear skin rug and a wall on top of it does insulation stack or does it only count only the wall?
The insulation value of the space is [ (R value of the walls enclosing the space) + ( 4 * R value of the floors in the space) ] / (total number of tiles in the space)
But notice that here "space" doesn't mean the room, it means the 8x8 grid surrounding wherever you are standing. The main purpose of walls is to block off that grid from spilling out past the walls into the uninsulated space beyond them.
I think we can do without them just by putting floors everywhere.
Yes you are misremembering the temp bar.
Thanks! Good to know. Memory is fickle.
Hey. the part about a fire indoor but without floor. A fire still heats up this building right? And a fire also heats up a building that is bigger then 8x8 if all doors closed. right?
When a door is opened. Is the head gone instantly?
A fire inside a building still provides heat two ways. All fires heat up the tiles very close to them (radiant heat) and this is true regardless of walls or floors. Inside a building, fires add even more heat to the tiles that are within the 8x8 grid around them (convection heat), unless they are blocked by walls, and they do this whether the space has floors or not, although they'll heat more effectively if there are floors.
Fires inside buildings don't add any convection heat to any tiles that are outside the fire's 8x8 grid or that are blocked from the fire by walls. If the building is bigger than 8x8, the tiles within the fire's 8x8 grid will get convection heat but the rest of the building will not.
Convection heat changes instantly when a door is opened or closed. But your heat is only evaluated every two seconds. So whether you get the full benefit of convection or only a much smaller benefit from convection depends on whether or not the door is open at the moment your heat is evaluated. If you watch your temperature bar you can see the pointer move every two seconds; if you open a door and then immediately close it between those moves, it won't affect your heat. Bear in mind it might affect someone else's, because everyone's pointers move at different times.
I'm copying what I said in this thread over here, since it's probably a better place for a technical discussion:
Make rooms large and completely floored. Leave open spaces in the walls for going in and out. Don't bother with putting doors on them. Place floors outside the entrance for two or three tiles' width. Place fires just inside the entrance.
This will preserve almost all of the convection bonus and biome-reduction bonus for the area inside the walls, even with open doors, and the radiant heat bonus from the fire in the doorway will compensate somewhat for the few tiles near the doorway that don't receive the entire biome-reduction bonus.
In fact, you can dispense with walls and doors entirely with only a small reduction in the heat bonuses. The most important part is the flooring; walls contribute far less to a space's insulation than flooring does. The main thing that walls (and closed doors) do is define the space within which all tiles must have floors in order to get the full bonus. You can cheat this by putting floors everywhere, and realizing that the full biome-protection effect only begins three tiles in from the edge of the flooring.
This won't maximize the heat bonus since it leaves off the insulation from the walls, but floors are so much more important than walls - every floor is counted four times when adding up the insulation totals, whereas each wall is counted only once. It's right there in the code: floor insulation values are quadrupled.
But trying to get a perfect heat environment inside a building while relying on closed doors is probably wasted effort. Doors are a nuisance; let's work around them rather than trying to accomodate them.
Likewise, maximizing the heat bonus of the new room system requires small rooms, due to the 8x8 airspace grid. Any wall that's more than three or four tiles away from where you are standing effectively doesn't exist. So I say screw it. Make large rooms, give up the wall bonus, and rely on the floor bonus. We all know that we need workspaces that are large and uncluttered; let's not drive ourselves crazy trying to work in cramped rooms just to get that last bit of insulation bonus.
We need tons of bowls now, so you can pick berries into a bowl and take it with you to your workspace, so you can get something done without starving and without running back and forth to the berry farm all the time.
Pies are better for this, of course, but with the general productivity fall-off due to the desert being nerfed, pies aren't as common as they used to be.
Make rooms large and completely floored. Leave open spaces in the walls for going in and out. Don't bother with putting doors on them. Place floors outside the entrance for two or three tiles' width. Place fires just inside the entrance.
This will preserve almost all of the convection bonus and biome-reduction bonus for the area inside the walls, even with open doors, and the radiant heat bonus from the fire in the doorway will compensate somewhat for the few tiles near the doorway that don't receive the entire biome-reduction bonus.
In fact, you can dispense with walls and doors entirely with only a small reduction in the heat bonuses. The most important part is the flooring; walls contribute far less to a space's insulation than flooring does. The main thing that walls (and closed doors) do is define the space within which all tiles must have floors in order to get the full bonus. You can cheat this by putting floors everywhere, and realizing that the full biome-protection effect only begins three tiles in from the edge of the flooring.
betame - Maybe you can help me puzzle something out. Previous calculations and measurements showed that being naked in a normal (cold) biome drained food at 4.8 seconds per pip. Jason specifically tweaked the new numbers so that that stayed the same, and I just now measured it myself and got the same result: 4.8 seconds per pip.
But here's the thing - I could swear that the temperature meter is a lot further to the left now when being naked in a normal biome than it was before the update. Even though the food drain now matches our notes on what it had been before.
Any thoughts here? Am I just misremembering where the meter used to sit?
3M subscribers. Hooray, we're about to be flooded with retards.
Well, I'm glad Jason will get a bunch of money out of it.
Every tile has a temperature, ranging from freezing to cold to zero to hot to burning. Your temperature is mainly determined by the temperature of the tile you are standing on, which in turn is mainly determined by the biome of that tile. However, your temperature is also affected by the clothing you wear, while the temperature of the tile you are standing on is affected by fires, walls, and floors.
In addition, there is something called "biome shock" that has a large effect on your temperature when you move from one biome to another. And finally, yellow fever also has a large effect on your temperature. Both of these will be discussed after we cover the basics.
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Clothing:
In the simplest case, where you are standing naked on a single biome, outside, with no nearby walls, floors, or fires, your temperature will rapidly become the same as the biome temperature: freezing in the arctic, hot in the jungle, burning in the desert, and cold in the four normal biomes (grasslands, plains, swamp, and badlands). This is called "reaching equilibrium" with your tile.
Clothing does two things. First, it raises your equilibrium temperature above the temperature of your tile. It makes you warmer on cold tiles, which is good, but it also makes you warmer on hot tiles, which is bad. Edit: As of 2/19 Jason has changed this so that clothing only adds heat when you are on cold tiles, and does not add heat when you are on hot tiles.
Second, clothing slows down the rate at which you reach equilibrium with your tile. If you are naked, you will reach your tile's temperature quickly; if you are clothed, you will take much longer to reach your tile's temperature (or rather, somewhat higher than your tile's temperature, because as noted above, clothing raises your equilibrium temperature). If your current temperature is closer to zero than your tile is - for example, if you were standing near a fire but then walked away into the cold - then that's good. But if your current temperature is further away from zero than your tile is - for example, if you walked in from the cold to stand near a fire - then that's bad.
Fire:
The effect of fire is straight-forward. Fire heats up the tiles that are close to the fire. The closer to the fire, the more the tile's temperature is raised. This is good in cold biomes and bad in hot biomes.
Buildings:
Buildings have two effects. First, they enhance the way that fire heats up the tiles inside the building, in a rather complicated way. And second, they reduce the effect of the biome, in a different rather complicated way.
Airspace:
First, there is a new concept called your "airspace". Your airspace is the 8x8 grid of tiles around your current location, excluding any of those tiles that are separated from you by a wall. If you are outdoors, your airspace is the entire 8x8 grid. If you are in a small room fully enclosed by walls with no open doors, then your airspace is that room and not any of the tiles outside the room. If that same room has an open door, and the tiles outside the open door are within the 8x8 grid around you, then those tiles outside the room are included in your airspace.
If you are inside a large room, in the middle of the room, and the walls of the room are far enough away from you so that they are outside the 8x8 grid around you, then your airspace is the entire 8x8 grid (as if you were outside). If you are in the corner of a large room, then the tiles outside the room on the opposite side of the walls in your corner are not part of your airspace, but the rest of the tiles in the 8x8 grid around you, the ones inside the room, are part of your airspace.
If you are outside and next to a wall, regardless of whether that wall is actually part of a completed room or building, as long as that wall blocks off some of the tiles in the 8x8 grid around you, then those blocked-off tiles are not part of your airspace.
Airspace Insulation:
Your airspace has a certain amount of insulation separating it from everything outside the airspace. This is determined by two things: the degree to which your airspace is bounded by walls rather than by empty space, and the degree to which your airspace has floors.
Each wall making up the edge of your airspace adds a certain amount of insulation. Each piece of floor within your airspace adds a certain amount of insulation. What matters is the average amount of insulation around the borders of your airspace, i.e. whether your airspace is surrounded by walls or is instead surrounded by open space, combined with the average amount of insulation on the floors of all the tiles in your airspace. The more open space your airspace is surrounded by, and the more empty floors your airspace has, the less well-insulated your airspace is.
Fires in buildings and near walls:
Here's the first effect of the airspace: any and all fires within the airspace will heat up the tile you are standing on, even if they are not particularly close to your tile. How much each fire heats up your tile depends on how big your airspace is. The total amount of heat from each fire is divided by the number of tiles in your airspace, so if your airspace is large each fire will only have a small effect.
Furthermore, how effective the fires inside your airspace are depends on how well-insulated your airspace is. If your airspace is poorly-insulated (lots of open edges instead of walls, and lots of tiles without floors) then most of the heat provided by the fires will be lost and will not heat up your tile. If your 8x8 grid (your airspace) is entirely out in the open, with no walls or floors nearby at all, then the fires inside that airspace will not heat up your tile via this extra mechanism (which is called "convection"). They will still heat up your tile normally, if you are close enough to them (which is called "radiant heat").
Floors and Biomes
If your airspace is completely covered in floors, then the effects of your tile's biome are reduced. If you are on a freezing or cold biome, and your airspace is completely floored, then the severity of your tile's biome is reduced, effectively making your tile warmer. The effective coldness of your tile's biome is reduced by the degree of insulation that your airspace has.
The same is true if you are on a hot or burning biome and your airspace is completely floored; the effective heat of your tile's biome is reduced by the degree of insulation that your airspace has, effectively making your tile cooler.
Note that this works even without walls (although without walls, your airspace's insulation will be less and so the warming/cooling effect will be smaller). Note that it does not work, even with walls, unless every tile in the airspace is covered with a floor.
Biome Shock
Whenever you cross a biome border from one of the freezing or cold biomes into one of the burning or hot biomes, or vice versa, you suffer something called "biome shock". In general, your temperature will immediately change from being cold to being hot, or vice versa. Exactly what happens is a little complicated.
Edit: as of 2/22 the way Biome Shock works has been dramatically simplified. The section quoted below is how it worked when I first wrote this post, but now none of it is correct any more:
Consider the case where you are in a cold biome, and cross into a hot biome. Your temperature will immediately change to that biome's natural temperature, moderated by the amount of clothing you have. If you are naked, you will immediately reach that temperature. If you are clothed, you will immediately reach a fraction of that temperature (i.e. still above the zero point of ideal temperature, but not as hot as without clothing). This takes place without any consideration to whether your new tile is inside a building, near any walls or floors, or close to a fire.
The same thing happens when going from a hot biome to a cold biome. You will immediately reach the cold biome's natural temperature, or with clothing a fraction of that temperature (i.e. still below the zero point, but not as cold as without clothing).
There is one important constraint, however. Even if you have clothing (which would normally make your immediate new temperature close to the zero point), your new temperature will always be at least as far away from zero as it was before you stepped into the new biome. So if you are fully clothed, but freezing (because, for example, you have been in a freezing biome for a long time), and step into a hot biome (like a jungle), your temperature will immediately go to burning (even though a jungle's natural temperature is only hot, not burning).
After the immediate change, your temperature will continue to adjust to the new tile's actual temperature as normal, including any considerations from buildings, walls, floors, and fires. And as usual, clothing will slow down that adjustment.
As of 2/22 Biome Shock works like this, as per Jason's description:
When crossing from a too-cool to a too-hot biome (or vice versa), you shock to the mirror-image position on the temperature meter. Clothing does not affect this. After flip-flopping on the temperature meter, you then gradually go up (or down) towards the biome's target temperature. This gradual change is slowed by clothing, as usual. This means that crossing a biome boundary will never cause a sudden increase (or decrease) in your hunger rate.
Fever
If you get bitten by a mosquito, in addition to dropping everything you are carrying, you will have an additional amount of heat added to you above and beyond whatever other temperature would you otherwise be at.
In order to not starve, you'll need to lower your temperature as much as possible. If you are already on a cool or cold tile, you may be fine, although you may want to move to a colder or freezing spot if possible.
If you are on a warm or hot tile, you will need to move to a cold tile ASAP. Here is one case where you can use biome shock to your advantage. When you cross from a burning or hot biome tile to a cold or freezing biome tile, and you have fever, you still suffer biome shock but the clothing modifier is ignored and you are not prevented from having your temperature get closer to zero. This is a special case just to allow people to survive yellow fever.
Note that if you get yellow fever on a cold biome (due to mosquitoes being present in a foreign biome, which can happen), if you then move to a freezing biome, biome shock will not take place and your clothing will prevent you from more rapidly cooling down. Biome shock only applies when crossing from hot or burning biomes into cold or freezing biomes, not when crossing from cold biomes to freezing biomes. You may need to first cross into hot or burning biome, which will trigger biome shock and cause your temperature to go to the max hot, then cross again into a cold or freezing biome, which will cause your temperature to go to cold or freezing (plus the fever penalty). Note that this move could itself be dangerous.
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I tried to make this explanation as simple as I could while still being complete. Please point out anywhere that I might have overlooked something or simply gotten something wrong. Also note that Jason could make further changes at any time, so if you're reading this from the future please accept my apologies for it being out-of-date.