Still thinking about griefers.

boggers · 2018-09-13 12:24:31

pein wrote:

the ossuary wont work
while most griefers are in towns, i seen plenty in eve camps and on gen 3-6 when you don't have tools or pen but people already destroy the progress
the other problem is with bones
once someone dead, you can just take any bone and put inside it, even the eves bones
someone will put all the bones there just because he can
or if its small someone will remove the bones to put someone else there
or a kid will put your bones there cause once you hurt his feelings

Planting flowers on a buried grave to prevent someone spawning there would not have either of these problems.

Redram · 2018-09-13 14:22:05

pein wrote:

the ossuary wont work
while most griefers are in towns, i seen plenty in eve camps and on gen 3-6 when you dont have tools or pen but people already destroy the progress
the other problem is with bones
once someone dead, you can just take any bone and put inside it, even the eves bones
someone will put all the bones there just because he can
or if its small someone will remove the bones to put someone else there
or a kid will put your bones there cause once you hurt his feelings

As far as eve camps, that's just the nature of the mechanic. It's for more advanced towns. Until then you've just got curses. To me it's part of the tradeoff. Banning someone from a region for a long period is pretty powerful. I mean we're talking banning that player's account form the region. It shouldn't be easy. I think variety of effects, durations, and availability makes for interesting diversity.

I was envisioning the ossuary as holding only 1 person's bones. Basically like an urn or chest. Not an entire crypt. There's no penalty just for putting bones in it. You have to add the 'special sauce' or whatever. So a lot of work to do it for a lot of people. Have your kids bury your bones if you don't want them put in an ossuary. But yes, you can switch out the bones. Ideally ossuarys would be a hard to make/maintain, maybe limited quantity item, so the town might decide they want to keep out a newer griefer. They risk letting the old one back in that way, and you have to renew the sauce. It doesn't carry over to new bones. Switching can be a calculated risk, or an ignorant act. That's life. But, in order to make it more difficult, it can be made a two-person act to open an ossuary. One person uses a long shaft to pry open the lid, the other person has 1 second to get it the rest of the way off. After one second the lid goes back on. Possibly using a second tool like an adze, to make it harder for one person to do. This reduces the ease of griefers emptying ossuaries. They can still smooth-talk people into helping them. Again, more interesting than pie chases, to me. You can use the same thing for moving the ossuary itself. And it should slow you like a boulder, to make griefing it harder.

All issues are solvable. You just have to approach it from the angle of trying to make it work, rather than trying to discount it.

As for people having pride in having ossuaries everywhere, so what? If they're all active then that person can have that pride while they're eveing or griefing small camps on the margins of society. It's not like they don't already take pride in their acts, and it's not like they'll all have the same name on them. Nobody other than them will know. But ya it can be other methods. Cursed plants or whatever. It's mainly the idea 'ban from region with investment of time and material' I thought ossuaries would tie nicely in with rare resources, and would be another cool thing to have in buildings. It really saddens me that the game doesn't really encourage buildings at all right now.

Last edited by Redram (2018-09-13 14:25:47)

MultiLife · 2018-09-13 14:39:17

Some great points in this discussion but also badly thought out punishment stuff. Good discussion anyways.
Overall I'd say at least no to prisons and cuffs stuff like many have suggested over time as griefers just disconnect.
I think making griefing boring, slow and not worth the kicks is the best way to limit it. I think the progressive curse and server time-outs are good enough?
I have no idea what people mean when they talk about being fair to griefers, what, why? Yeah sure redemption but... you reap what you sow?

Destrucity wrote:

If your game relies on griefers to be interesting, then there is a fundamental flaw with the game.

+1
I'd rather fight and kill monsters than other players honestly. I don't like to be "town guard" as it feels like babysitting to me and not some "most dangerous prey hunt" game... I didn't come here to play PvP, I want to play PvE and do farming and stuff. Yes PvP can be a thing ofc I am not against it. We do need it. It's just the last thing I want to do in OHOL.

boggers · 2018-09-13 15:43:58

I get where you are coming from Redram, and agree for the most part, I just think thematically who wants to build elaborate temples to asshats? I agree about the lack of buildings too, people should build more, but it is resource and time intensive, why waste that on griefers? Better to just put them in the dirt and make sure they don't come back.

What I'm proposing (daisies) only takes a shovel, a bowl of dirt and a rare spawn so it would even be available to an Eve who knows where the wild daisies grow.

The key to my suggestion is that it is not too difficult to set up but it only works as long as people keep maintaining it by watering the daisies... maybe every 30 mins you have a 5 minute window of "wilted daisies" where they must be watered or die, so if a player tries to secretly banish another player by planting daisies on them outside of town, or if someone starts arbitrarily planting daisies on every buried grave in the graveyard (which they can only do once per 5 minutes due to the rarity and slow timer on the wild spawn itself) then those bans will time out quickly.

A proper griefer would end up pushing daisies beside the berry farm well. It leaves them nameless and trodden on, but over time the more people a town banishes, the more it starts looking like a happy place, but the more water it will cost for upkeep...

Auner · 2018-09-13 17:23:03

how about- if you hit a certain grief point in curses or in killing-- you're character will be forced into a mushroom reality for several hours.

This means you wont be able to see what's the knife or what's food- and effectively make further grieving a REAL task.

Aria · 2018-09-13 18:35:45

Joriom wrote:

boggers wrote:
I think you'd do better to view griefers in OHOL as people showing you exactly where the game is broken.
I love this comment. In IT world griefers are mostly called "Testers" and they're often paid for it
Developer: How can I make it?
Tester: How can I break it?

+1

Redram · 2018-09-13 20:22:43

boggers wrote:

I just think thematically who wants to build elaborate temples to asshats?

Yes, thematically quite true. I was also wanting to propose the opposite - reliquaries - which would increase your chance of respawning in town, but that'd just cause huge fights most likely. Ultimately it seems like pettiness means we can't have nice things.

My problem with daisies and water is, it's just more farming. The game really has enough farming already, and enough pressure on water resources. It'd be nice if there were some other jobs, and more uses for marginal resources like limestone and gold, imo.

As to jason's proposal btw, long overdue. I didn't realize till recently you couldn't curse anyone above 10 points, which is ludicrous. Piling curses onto griefers should have always been possible.

Last edited by Redram (2018-09-13 20:24:45)

Dodge · 2018-09-13 20:53:31

Or the sterile wool pad could be stored in the medical apron, and medics would have a wool pad and needle and thread in the backpack at any time (and knife for arrow wound), which could reduce the murder related griefing a lot.

But would it make it too easy, i dont know (maybe reducing the slow time after murder could balance it)

eatscutebbys · 2018-09-13 21:01:08

Cursed child appearance recommendations:

* Has evil face.
* Any text they try to say is randomly replaced with nonsense.
* Any music playing stops when this child is born.

betame · 2018-09-13 21:11:00

jasonrohrer wrote:

...
Okay.... so here's the plan that I worked out. What do you think?

1. A more visible mark on cursed babies/people, regardless of whether they speak (black speech will stay, but I'll add something that cannot be missed visually).
2. A global database that tracks players' total curse scores, shared by all servers. This total score never decrements. So our top player above would have 114, or whatever, forever.
3. A current curse score that is also shared by all servers. Getting cursed on one server makes you cursed on all servers.
4. Your current curse score decrements at a rate determined by your total score. As your total score gets higher, your current curse score decrements more slowly (more time as marked baby). Currently, everyone loses one curse point per hour. The new formula will be:
1 + ( totalCurseScore / 20 )^2
...

On top of Jason’s current proposal which helps assure bad players are noticeable, we still need help carrying out our intended punishment (exile). We also need fixes for massively exploitable game mechanics, and ways to reverse damages; otherwise the game is set up to encourage players who enjoy griefing and discourage players who enjoy the core game. 
More specifically:

Starving evil babies is unnecessarily difficult. They can jump out of the mother’s arms and run to the nursery spot with other babies. There, they can stack with other babies and be fed with misclicks. I recommend cursed babies be layered to the back of all baby stacks, and perhaps nerf baby movement.
We need help cursing players that are moving or have complicated names. Options like “Curse you brother/murderer/[null]” to curse the closest brother/murderer/anyone. If the ambiguity is a problem, and you really want us to kill them to see their name on the bones, we’ll need help killing greifers (see next bullet)
Killing greifers should be easier with groups because greifers rarely have teammates (just prevent twins+ if they have any curse score) and the non-violent masses are untrained in killing. For example, I like GreatShawn’s cleaner idea of helping someone put on armor. Also, send cursed players to the front of player stacks so they can be seen/ clicked on.

Other than that, I think Jason’s current implementation looks good;
The curse/murderer/victim stats show that most cursed players are killed way more than they are cursed — killing without cursing gives them a free shot at working evil in their next life. So the addition of memory with the TotalCurseScore helps point out mass griefers that were dipping under 10 CurrentCurseScore often, while still allowing innocents to redeem themselves.
Visible marks will help prevent griefers from being undetected — if you had only one life, everyone in your community would know you were evil.

Last edited by betame (2018-09-13 21:12:24)

Superfun2 · 2018-09-13 21:18:42

I think jason should reset curse points before the update EX the guy with 141 curses cant redeem himself in reasonable time

Auner · 2018-09-13 22:52:52

Superfun2 wrote:

I think jason should reset curse points before the update EX the guy with 141 curses cant redeem himself in reasonable time

That 141 curses should honestly stop playing.

You don't accidentally kill 141 people. We dont need that angry of a 15 year old in our company

Tarr · 2018-09-13 23:00:25

Superfun2 wrote:

I think jason should reset curse points before the update EX the guy with 141 curses cant redeem himself in reasonable time

The person probably shouldn't have wracked up that many curse points. Nearly the top 10 cursed people are sitting at 50+ you don't just earn 50 points doing nothing. If you want a clean account you can give Jason another twenty dollars and then ruin that too.

Last edited by Tarr (2018-09-13 23:00:56)

Auner · 2018-09-13 23:18:51

Tarr wrote:

If you want a clean account you can give Jason another twenty dollars and then ruin that too.

This is absolutely correct.

Joseph Stalin · 2018-09-13 23:32:50

make a second server for only cursed people

Turnipseed · 2018-09-14 01:25:43

Joseph Stalin wrote:

make a second server for only cursed people

+1

jasonrohrer · 2018-09-14 03:23:23

I agree that there are a bunch of little things that need fixing.

But I still stand by my claim that griefing can take on an infinite number of forms (Joriom posted a list long ago, and it was very long). Even standing there taking away the charcoal when someone is trying to fire the forge can be a real pain. So, while making certain things stackable, or making trees replantable, will help, it won't solve the fundamental problem.

So, I'm tackling the fundamental problem first. No matter what form griefing takes, how can I empower you to deal with it?

Regarding the unnamed griefer, anyone can name them just by standing near them and saying "You are Sammy" or whatever. They become Sammy for the rest of their life.

Regarding the weakness of a game that "needs griefers" to be interesting.... this game is inspired in part by Rust, so, yeah. Human interactions and conflicts are way more interesting than interactions with the environment or a crafting tree. I wouldn't say griefing is the goal exactly, but conflicts between people are going to occur, and they are interesting! Griefing is the most extreme form of this.

Funny idea: selling indulgences. Cursed players can pay me $1 per curse point to have them removed.

I have thought about the Cain banishment. Play the game as a hermit for 10 hours or whatever. But that does kinda feel like me solving the problem for you. A cursed baby is at least a potential source of drama. I mean, it's right out of a fantasy novel... the mother trying to flee from the mob and hide the baby in the forest or whatever. Or the game Ico.

Finally, the cursing IS there specifically to deal with reincarnation. Killing or imprisoning a griefer IRL is sufficient. In this game, they get born again.

The murder mechanics are not there because of reincarnation, but there to compensate for the lack of fidelity in the simulation. Unless you are an eye witness, there's no way to investigate a murder. You can't take fingerprints in this game, or follow footprints, or whatever else. So the game makes this easier by signalling that a killing has taken place (scream) and marking the perpetrator and victim clearly, and giving the victim time to report before dying, etc. In real life, we use helicopters to track fleeing criminals. Here, the murderer walks slowly for a while to give you a chance to catch them.

Think of it like an aimbot in a touch-screen FPS... necessary, given the fidelity of the interface.

FryinggPan · 2018-09-14 05:56:25

jasonrohrer wrote:

Will fix curse paper.

Okay.... so here's the plan that I worked out. What do you think?

1. A more visible mark on cursed babies/people, regardless of whether they speak (black speech will stay, but I'll add something that cannot be missed visually).
2. A global database that tracks players' total curse scores, shared by all servers. This total score never decrements. So our top player above would have 114, or whatever, forever.
3. A current curse score that is also shared by all servers. Getting cursed on one server makes you cursed on all servers.
4. Your current curse score decrements at a rate determined by your total score. As your total score gets higher, your current curse score decrements more slowly (more time as marked baby). Currently, everyone loses one curse point per hour. The new formula will be:
1 + ( totalCurseScore / 20 )^2
2 and 20 would both be parameters that I could adjust, but as an example, someone with a lifetime curse score of 114 would have to play for 33+ hours to have their current curse score decremented by one point. But someone who has a lifetime score of 10 (born marked once) will decrement one curse point ever 1.25 hours.

Aside from the visibility, i think thats an amazing thing. As someone who like the challenge of getting cursed, i find the anonymity and sneakiness of not being able to talk.

Dodge · 2018-09-14 06:05:36

"Unless you are an eye witness, there's no way to investigate a murder." A magnifying glass or other object that gives you clues on who did the murder (hair color, man or woman, life stage, skin color etc) could work also for cut trees,bear caves etc

A watchtower or portable telescope could help spot griefers more easily by giving a larger view of an area ( https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=3747 )

Doctor Steve · 2018-09-14 06:33:05

Like I said before, I would love to see some different kinds of weapons. Examples:
-- Lances, for horse battles/ to deal with the problem of griefers running off on horses
-- Throwing spears (I know we already have a bow and arrow but a throwing spear would be good for hunting too)
-- Clubs, for when you don't really want to kill someone but you do want to hit them (could knock out a griefer momentarily and give
the players the ability to carry a player, with slowed movement, while the clubbing status is on the clubbed player)

Sure more weapons would mean more ways to grief but it also means more ways to stop it.

Also, I had an idea for a visual representation of a curse: what if the cursed babies could come out gray-scale? It's not a HUGE difference and not entirely 'cool' either, so it wouldn't be much of an enticing reward for griefing. (Apologies if this has already been suggested)

Last edited by Doctor Steve (2018-09-14 06:34:02)

boggers · 2018-09-14 10:21:47

jasonrohrer wrote:

So, while making certain things stackable, or making trees replantable, will help, it won't solve the fundamental problem.

You can't fix people.

BTW, the only reason to cut maple and juniper en masse is to destroy a settlement. You could make chopping them 100% likely to damage the axe.

jasonrohrer wrote:

I have thought about the Cain banishment. Play the game as a hermit for 10 hours or whatever. But that does kinda feel like me solving the problem for you.

I put forward "Pushing Daisies" as an idea on banishment earlier in this thread, spread out over a few posts. It isn't solving the problem for us, but it does give players the tools to solve it.

It would be an additional system that works alongside curses. Preventing a player from spawning within travel distance of a planted marker, but only for as long as that marker is refreshed at the cost of one bowl of water every hour, so that excessive over use is detrimental to a town.

Some would choose to exile all cursed children without question. Some may decide to exile noobs, or exile people who RP as racists or paedophiles whether they are cursed or not. Banishing baby suiciders actually helps both parties.

Being exiled in one place is not a big deal. Being exiled everywhere is.

It requires the bones of the person to be exiled - so they must have been caught - but if a baby sees bad behaviour and remembers the name and finds that player's bones later in life, the survivor can use the bones to exile the dead. It also requires a shovel to bury them and a rare component that has a time gate - a wild flower that spawns no more than once per biome and can only be clipped once every 5 minutes - this prevents excess use while ensuring the option to exile is always available within the lifetime of a grave.

The number of planted daisies in a town would imply a lot too, I think.

Plus it makes for a nice metaphor. ie, "You're gonna be pushing daisies soon, Gramps."

edit: An alternative. Once off, zero maintenance, 4 hour exile marker: Salting the grave.

Last edited by boggers (2018-09-14 10:26:16)

janitor · 2018-09-14 12:25:20

I just wanna say when a cursed player is injured, their text becomes red like anyone elses, which I think can be confusing for people trying not to heal the greifers

pein · 2018-09-15 07:29:16

how to make a suggestion:
you are not you, you are a general player in the suggestion
consider the other side of the coin, what would you do if you are the one punished
what would improve your behavior?
cause there is already tons of new rules that kill cursed babies and kill everybody who kills and protect noobs for every cost, even if they indirectly kill other people, etc.
all i hear is: 'oh i never will be cursed cause im good person' maybe you will look like the murderer, maybe you will pick up his lcothes and someone will mistake you with him, then convinces a larger population to curse you, maybe you will kill someone by accident and after a lot of drama curses will fly and people think you lost in aruments
maybe a game breaking bug will curse you by accident
then you realize that you cant prove innocence and only angers you to the point that you kill more people than before.

first off, why you would grief?
maybe you were treated badly in that city so you want to ruin it- this can be a bit childish but work got value, and others making you feel useless or a slave can trigger you. i fed 10 people in a city then i seen baby boom after baby boom and few famines in between while nobody worked
maybe you are bored of that city cause you are born back every time
you just enjoy angering others
you try to retaliate to someone but then everyone else sends you bad vibes
they are bored and pvp interests them more

what would improve the mental stress caused on both sides?
better communication and predictions, resource/pop stats
more content to occupy people
being able to undo/repair most of things
you cant do much about assholes who run away, so give some form of detection against them

what would improve your mentality if you happen to go on wrong side?
playing with similar skill players?
a bit out timeout from play to calm down
better solutions to deal with disputes in a non lethal way
even in box you dont hate your opponent but you fight for the win and the result changes the relationship, you dont have to win always just need to show that you are competent
there is a competition, there are skill match ups, the current game kinda forces you that you cant communicate if someone holds a weapon and you got to deal with them , i think a lot of us would be satisfied if could just punish you once and let you go on your way
improve private property rules, lot of time people are pissed you do something and you dont realize what you done wrong

a task or a way to redeem yourself if you are cursed
for example every time someone 'thanks', 'thank you', 'ty' you you lose a percentage of curse tokens casted on you and build up gratitude tokens
some of us are on both sides of spectrum, you might hate someone one game and love other game, its not fair to punish people for mistakes but dont reward for making an effort

BladeWoods · 2018-09-15 11:44:01

Griefers are strong at murdur too, towns often have only 1 or 2 young females making them easily killable by the greifer. Indiscriminate killing in large towns isn't too difficult to deal with, but there's absolutely no countermeasure to exterminating the females.

And on top of force feeding food to everyone to very quickly waste large supplies of food, griefers can take a shovel and destroy sheep pens in 5 seconds, kill all the sheep with a knife, cut all the rabbit fur, steal tools and just run into the wilderness or lock them up, cut all the wheat so there's no way to get more wheat seeds, build irremovable objects like chests or walls in the way, and especially especially, destroying limited resources like abandoning all the rabbit holes and cutting all the branch producing trees nearby.

Last edited by BladeWoods (2018-09-15 11:45:55)

Kinrany · 2018-09-15 13:45:08

jasonrohrer wrote:

Joriom.... I'm not trying to make the game idiot-proof. I mean, people have power in this game to make bad decisions. And tales of redemption are dramatic and interesting, so I get why people would be tempted to raise a marked baby.

Ooh, I know a quote that is relevant here:

"Was the sixth-year Slytherin seriously hurt?" said Harry.
"Yes."
"Was the sixth-year Gryffindor raised by Muggles?"
"Yes."
"Is Dumbledore refusing to expel him because the poor boy didn't know?"
Professor Quirrell's hands whitened on the inkwell. "Do you have a point, Mr. Potter, or are you just stating the obvious?"
"Professor Quirrell," said Harry gravely, "all the Muggle-raised students in Hogwarts need a safety lecture in which they are told the things so ridiculously obvious that no wizardborn would ever think to mention them. Don't cast curses if you don't know what they do, if you discover something dangerous don't tell the world about it, don't brew high-level potions without supervision in a bathroom, the reason why there are underage magic laws, all the basics."
"Why?" said Professor Quirrell. "Let the stupid ones die before they breed."
"If you don't mind losing a few sixth-year Slytherins along with them."

One Hour One Life Forums

#76 2018-09-13 12:24:31

Re: Still thinking about griefers.

#77 2018-09-13 14:22:05

Re: Still thinking about griefers.

#78 2018-09-13 14:39:17

Re: Still thinking about griefers.

#79 2018-09-13 15:43:58

Re: Still thinking about griefers.

#80 2018-09-13 17:23:03

Re: Still thinking about griefers.

#81 2018-09-13 18:35:45

Re: Still thinking about griefers.

#82 2018-09-13 20:22:43

Re: Still thinking about griefers.

#83 2018-09-13 20:53:31

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#84 2018-09-13 21:01:08

Re: Still thinking about griefers.

#85 2018-09-13 21:11:00

Re: Still thinking about griefers.

#86 2018-09-13 21:18:42

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#87 2018-09-13 22:52:52

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#88 2018-09-13 23:00:25

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#89 2018-09-13 23:18:51

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#90 2018-09-13 23:32:50

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#91 2018-09-14 01:25:43

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#92 2018-09-14 03:23:23

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#93 2018-09-14 05:56:25

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#94 2018-09-14 06:05:36

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#95 2018-09-14 06:33:05

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#96 2018-09-14 10:21:47

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#97 2018-09-14 12:25:20

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#98 2018-09-15 07:29:16

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#99 2018-09-15 11:44:01

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#100 2018-09-15 13:45:08

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