Open later: Top cap for yum

Booklat1 · 2019-03-15 15:34:30

Spoonwood wrote:

Booklat1 wrote:
They are precisely the right numbers And a best case scenario. Bonus on food eaten prior to potatoes say nothing about the food itself.
And that still doesnt explain it being impossible to match milk, crop per crop, with or without prior yum
Every math you've ever presented here was wrong, but im willing to take the bait, which was the right way to calculate yum for potatoes?
For the yum numbers you have to take into account the fertility numbers also via the yum. Given one player with the same yum as you, two bites of a potato is better than milk for fertility purposes.
Booklat1 wrote:
Fires more easily allow for the 0.5 factor to fertility, yum competes with other towns' females's yums.
Since it's so easy other females in other towns will do it. It's where the women of your family sit in the fertility line that matters.
Booklat1 wrote:
without wild foods there's a lot less to yum and wild means running in the cold.
If the settlement depends on wild foods for yum. It doesn't have to though. There exist more than 20 non-wild foods in the game.

Almost everything you said is wrong.

Fertility does depend on other lineages (0.5 means highest yum on server), eves compete with towns and town yums are usually bigger.

there are 20+ foods but most after sheep or cows or knife, not as an eve, specially one close to camp and heat. High yumming for fertility is not viable here.

And potatoes may add yum better than just milk but again, growing corn for both milks and popcorn allows for the most yum per crop. It's milk plus skim, plus butter, plus popcorn plus an extra corn. thats 6 people at 2+, 3 at 4+ and one at 5+, better than potatoes's 5 people at 2+.

Poatoes are not a good food, even for fertility its better to grow corn first.

heat matters more easily than Yum early game, both for food efficiency and fertility. Efficiency also is needed directly to allow fertility as lack of food causes girls to leave camps/die.

Léonard · 2019-03-15 16:37:33

Spoonwood wrote:

No, it's not, because such foods can get made and then eaten for yum for fertility reasons, and fertility is not selfish.

Wasting pips away for the sake of your own fertility is, by definition, selfish.
Keep in mind we're talking about inefficient foods here.
So effectively what you're doing is you're wasting a bunch of pips (which could have been preserved by cooking an efficient type of food instead) to benefit your own fertility.
If instead you had produced a net increase in pips by making an efficient food then the whole village could have used those pips and in turn benefit from the yum bonus as well instead of just you.

Spoonwood wrote:

Inefficiency is meaningless without fertility. A whole village that just drank milk will have lower fertility chances than if they have a more varied diet. The more varied diet comes as more likely to ensure their survival.

You're trying to defend making wasteful foods for the purpose of yumming when you could instead make non wasteful foods also for the purpose of yumming.
What?
So you're trying to give the town a varied diet while simultaneously wasting a bunch of pips away which could instead have been used to feed and make more people benefit from your work.
The point being that you can increase the overall fertility of your village without wasting pips and yet you choose to waste pips anyways.
What part of this doesn't spell out inefficiency for you?
A whole village that just drank milk is better than a whole village who didn't benefit a single bit from you wasting their pips away.

Spoonwood wrote:

Additionally, if the person can get useful work done in their late 50s because of yum, I'm not so sure they were being all that selfish.

I can get useful work done in my late 50s regardless of yumming or not.

Spoonwood wrote:

That can already happen with enough people cooking for yum and organizing the village for purposes of yum.

Which, as my whole post points out and as my suggestions try to solve, is overshadowed by you selfishly making inefficient foods instead of efficient foods.
Why do you insist on defending making inefficient foods instead of efficient foods? Are you evil or something?

This, by the way, is an unworkable strategy.
You're trying to make your village more fertile which means have a higher birthrate which in turn means more mouths to be fed.
And you're doing that while simultaneously wasting pips away which could have been used to feed those new mouths.
You're increasing the population while simultaneously decreasing the food supply.
Are you evil? Is your purpose to create the biggest famine ever recorded in OHOL history?

Spoonwood wrote:

No, it doesn't make elders dependent on them. The elders aren't yumming enough if they are dependent on berries.

Alright, so, the only difference between an elder and a child regarding yum is that elders in theory had time to build up a yum chain before their food capacity went down.
Meaning that you expect them to yum while they're adults. Yet they don't.
Do you know why? I know because it happens to me often.
It happens because while I was working my ass off at whatever project I was tackling, nobody bothered to make milk/skim milk or sauerkraut or bread or whatever.
So I end up with having to fall back on berries once again.

Which again points to the same problem.
Maybe you should have spent more time producing efficient yumming foods for more people in your town to benefit from. Then perhaps elders would yum more.

Amon · 2019-03-15 18:08:59

Spoonwood, having high fertility won't turn you into a baby making machine, it isn't guaranteed to save the village either.

1) Actual Fertility, the ultimate fertility, mind you. Which we depend on for survival of the town is dictated by how many players have recently died and want to keep playing and how many people are currently joining the game.
Server population will rise and fall, cities die when the bulk of the player base goes offline. The new/recycled players will be born regardless of your yum bonus or not.

2) The area/lineage ban also has an effect on this. If you have a high population that hoards up the majority of the children, so when they die you suddenly have a large chunk of people that are banned. This has the possibility of crunching the town, but I think towns die here mostly due to bad luck in numbers (the remaining unbanned players have as much chance to be born in any other town as your town, yum can help here, but you should be building your yum slowly and steadily IN ADVANCE and not just go OH SHIT population is low, lemme monch the green beans and potatoes for a very low, slow, ultimately worthless increase in yum when it could've been so much higher by yumming in advance!).

3) Now, 'Fertility' fertility that we can affect by temperature and food just gives priority to whom the next child gets born, children don't just poof out of thin air when you had a population crunch because you ate some lame foods nobody wants you to eat. (see point 1!!). When the top fish in yum and temperature gets her child, the next one will go to someone else unless they /DIE, but then that specific kid /can/ be your kid pronto! A naked, cold woman will still get children if enough players are getting recycled.

Why towns died from a lack of girls was probably more complex than just yum.
I think the actual lack of girl children just comes from the fact that nobody is taking proper care of them due the perceived 'safety' in numbers and nobody paying attention that all the baby girls went RIP.

So what can we learn from this?
Yum to benefit the town, yum the good food, if no varied food is around, make it! Everyone will win-win, in my last life i've been dong plenty of different foods and distributed it, I bet everyone that was not me was happy with the slight increase of work time undisturbed by hunger
Eat the good foods, there are enough good foods to last a lifetime.

Also the hard cap on village survival is iron usage, not fertility, a village can be still found and resettled, but once the iron is gone, the tools are broken, there isn't much of anything you can do. Having a lot of iron now doesn't mean you have to spend it up on a food that can be replaced by better alternatives EZ, you have to make it last.

Last edited by Amon (2019-03-15 18:12:42)

fragilityh14 · 2019-03-15 19:15:22

have you witnessed a town truly running out of iron, and not having the ability to make a horsecart to find more due to lack of tools? i never have, but of course iron is useless if they're dead by the time you get back from the run. Most civs I see die have iron around.

But, with iron being non-renewable, it is a theoretical hard cap, I'm yet to fail to be able to collect a full load of iron in half a lifetime with a horsecart, and 12 tools last a while. Even just someone on a horse with a backpack could get enough iron to at least get production going again, you just ride until you find new spawn.

DestinyCall · 2019-03-15 20:08:30

I've been in multiple small villages that experienced an "iron crisis" during my lifetime. Many of these towns died out within a few generations. Personally, I think the lack of iron IN the village had a big impact. Even though there was probably iron out there for the village to gather, it does no good to the village if no one brings it back in time. Iron runs are not generally something I enjoy, so unless someone else fixed the problem eventually, it was unresolved.

The ultimate cause of village death is always "no more females" and the most common cause of villager death is starvation by a wide margin. But starvation deaths are complex. Did you die because the village had no food or because the village had no clothing or because the village had no compost or because the village had no iron to make the tools to produce the compost, food and clothing?

Lack of essential tools or lack or iron to make essential tools or lack of people with the skill/knowledge/awareness to make available iron into tools can have many downstream consequences of village productivity. This might not directly kill the village, but it does set the stage for a series of rolling shortages that can easily overwhelm future generations.

Missing tools means time wasted looking for the tools you need or gathering the supplies to make new ones. It might mean the difference between getting sheep or finishing a horse cart before you die or get distracted by a new emergency. Veteran players can survive and work even when the town is in serious trouble, but young children and new players are at high risk of early death during food/clothing shortages. And many important things require someone to be knowledgable at smithing AND aware of the most pressing needs of the town.

When the last axe breaks and it takes too long for anyone to notice, so the firewood runs out. Then, the last piece of kindling is used to keep the center fire lit, instead of firing the forge. No milkweed available for miles around to make a new hatchet. Without a fire and kindling, no more pies. A short famine leads to the last girl dying at age five. And the town dies with a stack of iron and baskets of unbaked pies and a field of ripe berries.

Amon · 2019-03-15 20:08:55

It is a theoretical hard cap for an ideal town. One the tools are gone as said above and nobody makes a new set...slippery slope down the drain goes everything.
Of course, towns will die out way before due griefers, fertility issues, lack of organisation, inexperienced players.
The cap will only rise as we rise up the tech tree I predict.

But technically you can keep a town going by repopulating it with another lineage if it dies out. I sure did a few times.

Last edited by Amon (2019-03-15 20:12:32)

fragilityh14 · 2019-03-15 20:59:13

Amon wrote:

It is a theoretical hard cap for an ideal town. One the tools are gone as said above and nobody makes a new set...slippery slope down the drain goes everything.
Of course, towns will die out way before due griefers, fertility issues, lack of organisation, inexperienced players.
The cap will only rise as we rise up the tech tree I predict.
But technically you can keep a town going by repopulating it with another lineage if it dies out. I sure did a few times.

Intentionally by mapping, or running into it on accident?

DestinyCall · 2019-03-15 22:17:54

fragilityh14 wrote:

Amon wrote:
It is a theoretical hard cap for an ideal town. One the tools are gone as said above and nobody makes a new set...slippery slope down the drain goes everything.
Of course, towns will die out way before due griefers, fertility issues, lack of organisation, inexperienced players.
The cap will only rise as we rise up the tech tree I predict.
But technically you can keep a town going by repopulating it with another lineage if it dies out. I sure did a few times.
Intentionally by mapping, or running into it on accident?

Build a landing strip in a town you like.

Fly back to it later.

Tarr · 2019-03-15 22:32:20

DestinyCall wrote:

Fly back to it later.

Landing strip decays in two hours so unless you are frequently traveling back and forth you can't return that way. Best bet is building a city off a busy city and just returning to revive it any time you spawn back to the big city.

DestinyCall · 2019-03-15 22:49:42

Well darn. There goes my idea to build airports in every town so I could fly around the known world.

Tarr · 2019-03-16 00:26:41

Yeah that's how they were originally going to work but we talked him into making decaying ones otherwise flight would be a constant game of removing bad landing strips around the map. Though I hope he eventually makes a longer lasting one so towns can be more accessible.

Spoonwood · 2019-03-16 01:34:16

Booklat1 wrote:

there are 20+ foods but most after sheep or cows or knife, not as an eve, specially one close to camp and heat.

Close to heat? Heat is as bad as cold these days, so why are you talking about heat.

Popcorn, green beans, berry in hand, berry in a bowl (4), wild onion, wild carrot, domestic carrot, banana (8), burdock, catcus fruit, cooked rabbit, cooked goose (12), cooked berry pie, cooked carrot pie, three sisters stew, cooked berry carrot pie (16), cooked rabbit pie, cooked berry carrot rabbit pie, cooked rabbit carrot pie, cooked berry rabbit pie (20), bean burritos, omelettes, shucked corn (23). None of those require a knife or cows. I didn't include all of the foods that don't require a knife or cows including potatoes, bean tacos, the mushroom, or cooked fish. There exist only 40 foods in the game as I recall. So, NO, most foods do not require a knife or cows.

Booklat1 wrote:

High yumming for fertility is not viable here.

You may as well just be saying that as attempt to kill off early camps.

Booklat1 wrote:

Poatoes are not a good food, even for fertility its better to grow corn first.

Potatoes make for the best food for trips with a decent yum bonus for someone trying to maintain his or her yum bonus on a trip.

Booklat1 wrote:

heat matters more easily than Yum early game, both for food efficiency and fertility.

Not if it's natural heat, that much stands as certain.

Booklat1 · 2019-03-16 01:55:01

Spoonwood wrote:

Booklat1 wrote:

there are 20+ foods but most after sheep or cows or knife, not as an eve, specially one close to camp and heat.
Close to heat? Heat is as bad as cold these days, so why are you talking about heat.
Popcorn, green beans, berry in hand, berry in a bowl (4), wild onion, wild carrot, domestic carrot, banana (8), burdock, catcus fruit, cooked rabbit, cooked goose (12), cooked berry pie, cooked carrot pie, three sisters stew, cooked berry carrot pie (16), cooked rabbit pie, cooked berry carrot rabbit pie, cooked rabbit carrot pie, cooked berry rabbit pie (20), bean burritos, omelettes, shucked corn (23). None of those require a knife or cows. I didn't include all of the foods that don't require a knife or cows including potatoes, bean tacos, the mushroom, or cooked fish. There exist only 40 foods in the game as I recall. So, NO, most foods do not require a knife or cows.
Booklat1 wrote:
High yumming for fertility is not viable here.
You may as well just be saying that as attempt to kill off early camps.
Booklat1 wrote:
Poatoes are not a good food, even for fertility its better to grow corn first.
Potatoes make for the best food for trips with a decent yum bonus for someone trying to maintain his or her yum bonus on a trip.
Booklat1 wrote:
heat matters more easily than Yum early game, both for food efficiency and fertility.
Not if it's natural heat, that much stands as certain.

Are you actually braindead? I've mentioned fire many times, thats the heat im talking about.

theres no reason to yum high while traveling because you'll be too cold to be fertile, even if there was an absolute need you could just mantain yum with wildfoods, bread, burritos, all largely superior to potatoes in literaly every aspect but having 2 yum per slot.

And fuck off with suggesting I'm trying to kill camps, it's the second time you suggest this despite literally everyone telling you you're one wasteful prick. I dont even post about my lines often. Potatoes are a meme, awfully bad even with impossibly high yum. No one prepares 5 fucking potatoes to go on a trip and no one gathers iron so a jerk can burn through it with potatoes. Listen to literally everyone here, stop rping gourmand or at least understand its just rp, not an efficiency focused style.

Spoonwood · 2019-03-16 01:55:11

Léonard wrote:

If instead you had produced a net increase in pips by making an efficient food then the whole village could have used those pips and in turn benefit from the yum bonus as well instead of just you.

Not if that food already exists around camp.

Léonard wrote:

You're trying to defend making wasteful foods for the purpose of yumming when you could instead make non wasteful foods also for the purpose of yumming.
What?

No. I reject the premise that wasteful foods exist. If you don't understand that I reject that premise, then it's no surprise that you express puzzlement.

Léonard wrote:

So you're trying to give the town a varied diet while simultaneously wasting a bunch of pips away which could instead have been used to feed and make more people benefit from your work.
The point being that you can increase the overall fertility of your village without wasting pips and yet you choose to waste pips anyways.

You can't increase fertility as fast by insisting on what others call efficient foods. Seven of the eight pie types, for example, can easily precede milk.

Also, any player down 5 pips who drinks milk only gets x1 yum towards their fertility. If the same player ate green beans or popcorn first (assuming none of those foods eaten) and then something else immediately can immediately have x2 yum towards their fertility.

Léonard wrote:

What part of this doesn't spell out inefficiency for you?
A whole village that just drank milk is better than a whole village who didn't benefit a single bit from you wasting their pips away.

Your example means no fertility via the yum bonus for the whole village. Better? But that low of yum will put almost the entire village at the bottom of the yum line with respect to fertility. And if they are naked, it's even worse. So, such a village would have fewer children over its lifespan than a village yumming.

Léonard wrote:

Spoonwood wrote:
That can already happen with enough people cooking for yum and organizing the village for purposes of yum.
Which, as my whole post points out and as my suggestions try to solve, is overshadowed by you selfishly making inefficient foods instead of efficient foods.

I already disagree with you on the meaning of the word selfish. No, a fertile woman trying to increase her likelihood of having children that she plans to care for is not seflish.

Léonard wrote:

Why do you insist on defending making inefficient foods instead of efficient foods? Are you evil or something?

I mean you and others apparently want less fertility in camps, and insist that people trying to have children are "selfish". I don't think I used loaded language like that.

Léonard wrote:

This, by the way, is an unworkable strategy.
You're trying to make your village more fertile which means have a higher birthrate which in turn means more mouths to be fed.
And you're doing that while simultaneously wasting pips away which could have been used to feed those new mouths.
You're increasing the population while simultaneously decreasing the food supply.

No, it doesn't work that way, because cooking increases the raw amount of pips available. And cooking in general comes as the way to improve the yum supply also.

Léonard wrote:

Alright, so, the only difference between an elder and a child regarding yum is that elders in theory had time to build up a yum chain before their food capacity went down.

No. An elder can get to a yummy food faster than a child.

Léonard wrote:

Meaning that you expect them to yum while they're adults. Yet they don't.
Do you know why? I know because it happens to me often.
It happens because while I was working my ass off at whatever project I was tackling, nobody bothered to make milk/skim milk or sauerkraut or bread or whatever.
So I end up with having to fall back on berries once again.

So the problem lies in people not making a diversity of foods? I think I've repeatedly advocated that people make a greater diversity of foods, while others have insisted on their precious and highly questionable 'efficiency' standards.

Léonard wrote:

Maybe you should have spent more time producing efficient yumming foods for more people in your town to benefit from. Then perhaps elders would yum more.

Well I use to make popcorn, green beans, and plant potatoes in towns less often. It would have come as better if I had cooked all of the pies, or seven of them probably, but I didn't realize how powerful that can be with respect to yum until after the big server update, and since then I have played much in the more populated areas.

Spoonwood · 2019-03-16 02:04:44

DestinyCall wrote:

When the last axe breaks and it takes too long for anyone to notice, so the firewood runs out. Then, the last piece of kindling is used to keep the center fire lit, instead of firing the forge. No milkweed available for miles around to make a new hatchet.

But I don't think this likely to be a problem with the iron supply. It's a problem with either the smiths who want to push multipurpose newcomen engine technology or with people not going out to get iron. Or it's a problem with farmers who don't grow enough milkweed (and the people who use milkweed for clothes when there exist sheep and shears). Half-bell tower base sheep pens come as another culprit. If a smith doesn't make multiple axes, hoes, and possibly also shovels, when barely any lie around, and instead makes an engine and tries to set up an oil rig, that's probably a clue.

DestinyCall · 2019-03-16 06:16:24

Yeah, that particular example was a supply chain problem that started with a broken tool. Lack of iron in the village can make this kind of situation worse, but it doesn't have to be the root cause.

The bigger issue with iron as a non-renewable resource has more to do with what happens when the iron supply runs low and nearby iron has been depleted. You go further out and search for more iron. But then that iron is gone. So you further out and search harder. Even though iron is technically infinite, if you search far enough, it is functionally limited by the distance and time involved with the search. Increasingly long iron shortages place stress on the town, tool loss compromises supply chains, and eventually one too many shortfalls will kill the town. It might not be a lack of iron that actually ends the line, but iron is definitely one of the major possible contenders due to the relative difficulty of finding it and the fact that it must always be gathered, rather than produced. In theory, most of the other critical resources can be produced by the town with the right tech and construction. Water can be pumped, trees can be planted, dirt can be composted, food can be grown. Only iron comes from the wilds and must be sought out from further and further fields as the town gets older.

Of course, you can also lose the last carrot seed or the last milkweed seed, which can end up being just as disastrous as running out of iron, if the wild ones have all been picked.

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#51 2019-03-15 15:34:30

Re: Open later: Top cap for yum

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Re: Open later: Top cap for yum

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