Anti-fence meta

Amon · 2019-04-18 17:58:08

I think most likely property actually developed through the concept of fatherhood. Human units were very communal, and all men contributed to every child.

Why should this man contribute to all children if he knows that only that one is his? Animals are very selfish and when that uncertianty is gone, he'll work to provide his child a future, and not those of others.

There's a big differance trying to handfist a concept and trying to evolve it naturally. Honestly in this game there is also the factor of, will the players play as expected of them?

I had not have the time to play with the fences yet. I'm going into them skeptical but open to see what they do, or rather what we do of them.

Last edited by Amon (2019-04-18 17:58:54)

Grim_Arbiter · 2019-04-18 18:00:24

I'm in. But i will leave open, non owned gates alone.

futurebird · 2019-04-18 18:01:32

Well, if I had real infinite food and wasn't worried that my town would starve there are SO MANY things I would do. I'd build roads and airports. I'd make a yum station with a wide variety of foods. I'd make neat buildings and use some of the cool ideas about jungle buildings with fires in closets. I'd make a radio in one town and bring the supplies for a radio to another and try to get them talking. I'd make neat clothing and color it. I'd move the nursery out of the bakery I'd...

And some of the time I've done these things, but in each case I noticed that the town started dying out and then I felt bad for not paying more attention to my kids (being on a horse when I had them, just dropping them off at the nursery)

I'd feel bad if the berries ran out and a bunch of kids starved. Yes they were probably "noobs" but I've starved too that way once or twice. I'm not a super expert player, but you are better off if I live than die because I make of point of trying to help the town and know a few ways to do that.

And even an very advanced player can die if there are no clothes, no berries, and it's a town where the wild foods are picked clean and the carrots are in an odd location. This is more true if you don't play with zoom. I think a lot of the people with no sympathy for 4 year olds who starve when the berries run out are playing with the zoom mod, which makes the game so easy it's almost boring. (but at the same time it makes planning a town and building much more enjoyable since you can see what your are doing)

Last edited by futurebird (2019-04-18 18:03:30)

Booklat1 · 2019-04-18 18:27:28

futurebird wrote:

And even an very advanced player can die if there are no clothes, no berries, and it's a town where the wild foods are picked clean and the carrots are in an odd location. This is more true if you don't play with zoom.

I never used zoom. And tbh, if im a naked baby in a big town with nothing not even food I just /die, but this never happens because at the very least i can scavenge/stand on a fire until grown.

FeignedSanity · 2019-04-18 18:34:18

Booklat1 wrote:

FeignedSanity wrote:
...
no one OWNS a fence or land just because they decided to infinitely multiply twigs into a fence. This aside, the issue is more with gates as the only way to overpower them is with murder.
this mechanic is spammable, hard to counter after set up and incentives hoarding. Any decent player can build a chest offtown or hide personal tools behind trees if needed, only to give back later. Now any dumb queen can claim a bakery if pop is low enough for it to pass.

I figured it went without saying that a gate and ownership would be implied. I was referring to someone who took the time to set up a fence AND a gate. If you OWN the gate (meaning you made it(game mechanic)), then you OWN the land inside the gate (and fence) and anything on the land. You are the defacto owner because only you are able to gain access to it.

In my head I was imagining a scenario where a few people tried to set up their own little 3x5 or 7x7 plot of land somewhat close to town, (but not in it) and then you, or someone else, comes along and smashes then all up because you dictated that "no fences allowed". I personally find this objectionable.

Maybe this came down to misunderstanding. If you were simply referring to people randomly building fences through the middle of the city, or trying to unilaterally claim ownership the town bakery or a communal resource; then that's far more understandable.

As a side note, putting stuff in a chest offtown or hiding behind trees doesn't guarantee any security (especially considering the "tiny tree" mod I've heard about). This fence thing would.

Personally, it seems like they'd work well enough. Overpowering through murder (if diplomacy fails) is fine by me. If someone is hording and everyone has a problem with it, deal with it like you would anyone else who is causing a problem. And as far as the "dumb queen" scenario, the maximum population you could get it to pass with no possible objections is one. And if she's the only villager for 30 minutes, I'd say let her have it. She wouldn't be imposing on anyone else, and it'll be gone when she dies.

Last edited by FeignedSanity (2019-04-18 18:35:37)

jasonrohrer · 2019-04-18 18:57:36

Yeah, so the story of the queen who "claimed" the bakery during a low-pop time is exactly the kind of interesting dynamic that I want to create here. Why is this bakery yours, young lady? Oh, because your great grandmother claimed it, when no one was looking? Does that rightfully make it yours?

This kinda stuff:

https://youtu.be/fasTSY-dB-s?t=408

Note that killing someone to clear their gate isn't the only option. You can also threaten them, either individually or collectively. There is stills strength in numbers. So if, down the road, the village decides that this "royal family" doesn't own the bakery after all, they have options.

That story is currently impossible in the game as it stands, because you can just walk off with the pies, and it doesn't matter what people claim about ownership. Yes, walls and locks are possible, but these things are trans-generational projects.

So, I'm looking for a way to bootstrap this kind of stuff without completely overhauling the entire building system in the game.

Grim_Arbiter · 2019-04-18 19:33:13

jasonrohrer wrote:

Yeah, so the story of the queen who "claimed" the bakery during a low-pop time is exactly the kind of interesting dynamic that I want to create here. Why is this bakery yours, young lady? Oh, because your great grandmother claimed it, when no one was looking? Does that rightfully make it yours?
This kinda stuff:
https://youtu.be/fasTSY-dB-s?t=408
Note that killing someone to clear their gate isn't the only option. You can also threaten them, either individually or collectively. There is stills strength in numbers. So if, down the road, the village decides that this "royal family" doesn't own the bakery after all, they have options.
That story is currently impossible in the game as it stands, because you can just walk off with the pies, and it doesn't matter what people claim about ownership. Yes, walls and locks are possible, but these things are trans-generational projects.
So, I'm looking for a way to bootstrap this kind of stuff without completely overhauling the entire building system in the game.

While this is one way to get people introduced into the idea of what you are trying to accomplish, I dont think its going to carry the weight you want it to right away.. my only advice is make more rare items.

You gave an example of pies. If they own all the pies big whoop, i can easily make another bakery and churn out the pies in my life.

Now if they own something I cant feasibly get in that life, or something that I could only get through passing down(something more physical than property rights) you will see more of what I think you want.

Amon · 2019-04-18 19:48:57

To prevent that person from claiming your bakery you make a fence around it to prevent them from stealing your pies and hoarding them within, starving off the village.
Then the third and forth bakery follow.

Maybe everyone having their own bakery wouldn't be so bad. But there's only so much you can do in a life, and only so much space to have all those life necessary functions.
Inefficiency is wasteful. Some can be tolerated in a big system. Too much wastefulness leads to stagnation, it leads to death.
This would be a very very sad existance.

Lets all be communist together.

Last edited by Amon (2019-04-18 19:52:21)

Tarr · 2019-04-18 19:54:04

Amon wrote:

To prevent that person from claiming your bakery you make a fence around it to prevent them from stealing your pies and hoarding them within, starving off the village.
Then the third and forth bakery follow.
Maybe everyone having their own bakery wouldn't be so bad. But there's only so much you can do in a life, and only so much space to have all those life necessary functions.
This would be a very very sad existance.

:^) just place adobe ovens in front of their gate and starve them to death, remove ovens once the gate disappears. Rinse and repeat until no one is dumb enough to put gates down.

In all seriousness, I wouldn't doubt people would grief gates so people can't escape their own made prisons and in fact would encourage it for people trying to lay claim to vital town resources. You don't need to make more bakeries if the "baker" is evicted via skeleton removal from the bakery.

Amon · 2019-04-18 19:58:42

Yeah honestly It's easy to think of a million things how to use these for their not intended purposes rather than their intended purposes.

What resource in this game even is worth protection?
I don't see these currently to be any less of a deathtrap than houses are.

Last edited by Amon (2019-04-18 19:59:22)

jasonrohrer · 2019-04-18 20:03:06

Why do you think that "property rights" entails "starving off" the rest of the village?

The grocer owns the groceries, and you can't just walk in and take groceries. The grocer is apparently hoarding all of the food, and starving out the rest of the town. In fact, the only way I can get food, currently, is to get it from the grocer. And yet, almost no one in western civilization starves to death. How is that possible?

Even in communist regimes, food was not just free for the taking by whoever wanted it. It was tightly controlled and rationed.

In a well-functioning village, who eats the pies? The 3-year-old kids? The grandparents? The griefers? If the pies are just sitting there, there will be a bunch of waste.

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs."

The key word there is "needs," not "wants," let alone, "wildest dreams."

Spoonwood · 2019-04-18 20:07:46

Redram wrote:

The resource situation is fixable but frankly Jason has so far displayed a pretty terrible grasp of resource tree setups in survival games. Just think of all the dead (at best - when it's not griefing tool) content that exists in this game - cards, dogs, dice, fish, pine panels, pork, potatoes, on and on. Do you see people growing tomatoes and onions much anymore now that the 'new content' sheen is gone?

I don't know about how people play on bigserver2 all that much, but some people do consider yum when thinking about crops or foods. I use to grow potatoes in some lives for this purpose before the bigserver system exsited (someone on the discord seemed surprised that anyone did that... because of the myth that families die due to a lack of iron as if you could eat it, not having enough killed you, or how much iron a family has affects fertility mechanics... lol). Since yum affects whether or not fertility might happen to you given incoming players and the lineage ban not blocking too many people, then that content isn't outside how the game designer wants people to play the game. Of course though, not seeing people having more crop types for the possibility of more yum though suggests either new players or players not caring much about yum in the game. One player decided to live off of milk for a life or two, because of it's efficiency with respect to soil cost and water cost, and some people claim that milk is over powered because of this.

Spoonwood · 2019-04-18 20:14:15

Booklat1 wrote:

We NEED competition. For water, animals, babies, trees, everything. Why is it that everyone has acess to iron? To rubber? Copper, alumn? Why is it that composting + any pump + nursery fire is an absolute meta covering all our needs for survival?

No, it is NOT an absolute meta covering all of your needs for survival as a family. You didn't include yum which also affects fertility in addition to temperature. Anyways, I hope you enjoy that milk that you're drinking.

Thaulos · 2019-04-18 20:15:00

If you destroy my fences around stuff I made you not only getting knifed yoy also getting cursed.

I'm sure I will not be the only one doing it. I will happily share what I make. But you have no rights to the fruits of my labor.

Last edited by Thaulos (2019-04-18 20:15:34)

futurebird · 2019-04-18 20:17:38

If people are faced with a choice of die or steal, they mostly steal. We don't see grocery stores as "hoarding" because few people are on the verge of starving all the time. That isn't the case in this game, the game is more like a town after a natural disaster, when people take what they need to not die because there is no time or organization to do anything else.

Only surplus can give people the space to slow down and talk about trade, or barter. "bring some water you can have some pie" I'm not saying that to someone who is about to die if they don't eat. Really I just want to be able to do a task effectively and feel useful. Making pies that no one eats isn't as rewarding as making pies that all get eaten. So, I'd just put them outside of the bakery and also reduce the reasons people might have for killing me just to break in.

jasonrohrer · 2019-04-18 20:19:51

Early on (like four years ago) I broke human creations down into three broad categories:

1. Food

2. Shelter

3. Entertainment

A wall is an example of 2. Maybe even a plastered wall, because it will never decay. But a red wall is an example of 3.

If I ever reach the goal of 10,000 objects in this game, they are not all going to be gameplay-viable items from 1 and 2, nor are they all going to be balanced and perfect. OHOL is not that kind of game, and was never intended to be. It is intentionally a kitchen-sink game, where I fly by the seat of my pants and add a bunch of stuff each week.

Yes, I know how to design balanced systems. But in my view, that is impossible to accomplish when adding 50+ new things each week. As things shake out, I do go back and adjust some of the most broken things, but even then, I don't get it perfect, because there's not time to think about any one thing in depth.

If you want to see a game with balanced systems, where ever object was there for a reason, look at The Castle Doctrine. But that game had something like 40 objects total. OHOL already has 2600.

Also, I should say that mixed into the balance are aesthetic considerations. I want this game to feel like making things. It is very realistic, at least on one axis. Carrots are pulled out of the ground one at a time, by hand. Potatoes are dug with a shovel. You also have to mound the plants in the middle of growth. It's just the way potatoes work. Getting rid of any of those steps would make them not feel like potatoes. They aren't just brown carrots.

There are various suggestions for "fixing" potatoes, but they all involve short-circuiting the way potatoes feel to grow. I could amp up the food value of potatoes to compensate, but I don't think I have enough room to do that even if I wanted to (if each potato gave you more food than the best pie, it still wouldn't compensate for the iron usage). But besides that, potatoes wouldn't feel right to eat if they were a super food.

So, there are simply going to be some foods that are way better and more efficient than others. That is true in real life.

Amon · 2019-04-18 20:28:18

jasonrohrer wrote:

Why do you think that "property rights" entails "starving off" the rest of the village?
The grocer owns the groceries, and you can't just walk in and take groceries. The grocer is apparently hoarding all of the food, and starving out the rest of the town. In fact, the only way I can get food, currently, is to get it from the grocer. And yet, almost no one in western civilization starves to death. How is that possible?
Even in communist regimes, food was not just free for the taking by whoever wanted it. It was tightly controlled and rationed.
In a well-functioning village, who eats the pies? The 3-year-old kids? The grandparents? The griefers? If the pies are just sitting there, there will be a bunch of waste.
"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs."
The key word there is "needs," not "wants," let alone, "wildest dreams."

Or you grow it yourself. But if everyone was doing everything from start up, we'd get nowhere.
Grocery stores are a more so recent invention and historically you were payed in food/beer for your labour. And even now money is simply a representation of value to make trading easier. But also a gocer's intention is to earn money, not to feed the village. A communal bakery is made to produce food for the village. If a store system were in place; now this could come into an entirely different debates on it's implications.
And the one hour limit into which to cram trading where simple negotations require minute negotations in which once could starve easilly. - This is something I would like to see though.

I think the bigger thing is this is one of the many many many ways to abuse the fencing. And people are inheritingly creative in how to bring chaos upon the world. While I like myself some good drama, that drama is IC and not downright player malice.

As far as communism goes. Your land was forfeit, your best potato field was gone, and the whole valley where people had their individual farms was turned...say into a hamp farm. Everyone now worked there, was payed by how much they worked, but everyone was payed to be live-able.
If you needed something you traded in your labour for it, it was liveable, but people then went over the iron counrtain to buy the things they wanted. Also it's not all USSR and tears.
If some person claimed the bakery, they could easily live off the food f it was well stocked in comfort and not take in any bribes from outsiders who are now starving.
What does the bakery claimant need or want? Money to pay taxes? What reason do they have to trade other than goodwill?

Last edited by Amon (2019-04-18 20:33:06)

Grim_Arbiter · 2019-04-18 20:28:35

jasonrohrer wrote:

Why do you think that "property rights" entails "starving off" the rest of the village?
The grocer owns the groceries, and you can't just walk in and take groceries. The grocer is apparently hoarding all of the food, and starving out the rest of the town. In fact, the only way I can get food, currently, is to get it from the grocer. And yet, almost no one in western civilization starves to death. How is that possible?
Even in communist regimes, food was not just free for the taking by whoever wanted it. It was tightly controlled and rationed.
In a well-functioning village, who eats the pies? The 3-year-old kids? The grandparents? The griefers? If the pies are just sitting there, there will be a bunch of waste.
"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs."
The key word there is "needs," not "wants," let alone, "wildest dreams."

Your right people dont usually steal groceries, but they will steal the expensive things like razors and baby formula. Then resell them and go buy groceries from the same store.

People always abuse the system or try to shortcut the rules, its human nature.

Even in those communist communities people still starved. It was often abused and worked around as well.

If your stuck with people of the same needs you should have the same abilities.. But it's not that simple in life or this game EVER, because everyone else has different abilities, needs, wants, and wildest dreams.

The reason we have any progress in this game is because we mostly understand what we want, and do it until it gets done.

Amon · 2019-04-18 20:36:30

jasonrohrer wrote:

So, there are simply going to be some foods that are way better and more efficient than others. That is true in real life.

Why potatoes are hated are shovel uses, which are very limited.
The way to fix potatoes, which most of the forum goes here spread about is not not tinker potatoes but to move composting to another specialised tool and raising the shovel uses.

Some solutions aren't even in the obvious problem object. Some solutions are just plain hidden or caused by a random thing nobody really thinks of. Will this fence fix property issues or will it not? We will see? But it's easy to predict the abuse with a little bit of creative mind.

Some things just aren't as direct.

Last edited by Amon (2019-04-18 20:39:06)

Thaulos · 2019-04-18 20:38:58

Historically before there was money you were actually paid with ingredients and not finished food. Same went for clothings. You bought the materials not the finished product.

Mosopotamians actually just communally farmed cereals. People owned the land they worked on and paid helpers with a quantity of the produce.

Each family then had their own small gardens in which they planted vegetables for a more diverse diet.

There was no centralized bakery nor did they mass produce everything.

Last edited by Thaulos (2019-04-18 20:42:35)

Amon · 2019-04-18 20:41:37

Thaulos wrote:

Historically before there was money you were actually paid with ingredients and not finished food. Same went for clothings.
In addition to that they communally farmed cereals. People owned the land they worked on and paid helpers with a quantity of the produce. In addition to that each family had their own small gardens in which the family planted vegetables.
There was no centralized bakery nor dud ghey mass produce everything.

Of course not, Everyone had their own heath to cook in, but food unproduced is still food albeit in a different state. But in terms of this game, we store and distribute food because it's more efficient to make a bulk on a single kindling. than have everyone waste kindling for 5 pies. -Which is the exact opposite in real life unless you run a soup kitchen.

Redram · 2019-04-18 21:00:41

jasonrohrer wrote:

Why do you think that "property rights" entails "starving off" the rest of the village?
The grocer owns the groceries, and you can't just walk in and take groceries. The grocer is apparently hoarding all of the food, and starving out the rest of the town. In fact, the only way I can get food, currently, is to get it from the grocer. And yet, almost no one in western civilization starves to death. How is that possible?
Even in communist regimes, food was not just free for the taking by whoever wanted it. It was tightly controlled and rationed.
In a well-functioning village, who eats the pies? The 3-year-old kids? The grandparents? The griefers? If the pies are just sitting there, there will be a bunch of waste.
"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs."
The key word there is "needs," not "wants," let alone, "wildest dreams."

I mean, you realize your game is nothing like real life right? None of these are anything close to a valid comparison. It all comes down to time, and life. Irl, we have just one life, so we obey laws and convnentions. In ohol, our lives in game are unlimited. So why not murder someone that ticks us off in game? Even if we get killed, we'll be back, probably in a similar town.

On the other hand we have 1 hour in game. Not years to build up a business, the skills to own the business, and the society with the laws required to successfully pass on that business to our children (much less the years required to establish an emotional connection with these children so that we'd even *want* to pass anything down to them). Our time in game is so limited it's largely useless to try and establish ownership over anything beyond what we can carry.

It's like you're sitting in a McDonalds wondering why nobody cares about their soft drink cup and tray and bag and napkins and packets of ketchup. Why would they? They'll just get the same things the next time they come into McDonalds. They purchased both the food and the containers and condiments. It's all theirs. But they only care about the food, because that's what they're there for. The rest is trappings, easily and immediately replaceable with identical items the next time they come by.

Last edited by Redram (2019-04-18 21:01:36)

Redram · 2019-04-18 21:14:00

Thaulos wrote:

There was no centralized bakery nor did they mass produce everything.

That was not true everywhere, especially in Europe. Communal bakeries were very much a thing until very recently (relatively speaking). People grew their grain, had it ground at the central mill, and had it baked at the communal oven. There were a variety of reasons for this, but it was very much the standard in Europe at least, up until a century ago in places.

http://www.oldandinteresting.com/commun … ovens.aspx

Amon · 2019-04-18 21:15:20

We actually still have some residue ruin millhouses

I think we're clearly lacking in era distinctions since different eras had different how they wnt abou life and then considering that OHOL is post-apoc.

Last edited by Amon (2019-04-18 21:17:12)

Thaulos · 2019-04-18 21:17:55

You are talking about different times entirely. The "middle ages" in Europe are not the same as ancient times before there was money. In Europe a family would own the "communal oven" and rent it out to whoever needed it.

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