It's kindof a funny story

Dodge · 2019-08-11 19:31:18

DestinyCall wrote:

Dodge wrote:
Spoonwood wrote:
The same thing happened after the 'come together' disaster, which took weeks before it got undone. The whole concept of towns being close together, or any other means by which town walls/fences become desireable, makes for a serious problem/deficiency in game vision.
So you're saying villages should be as far as possible from each other and never have any interaction, how is that interesting?
Yes the previous examples in photos are griefing, but saying that the fences/walls wathever are only to prevent griefing is erroneous.
We build the fences to keep out the extremely high number of sword griefers and feral eves. Not because neighboring villages will organize and launch raids on our village, but because griefers have become organized and attack any village without provocation. If there was an effective way to deal with griefers, the external threat would ramp way down. Without a high level of threat, the effort required to construct and maintain a town-sized property fence would be directed somewhere else and many villages would go back to being wall-less.
So yes ... we build the walls to keep out the griefers. Not because our village is too close other villages but because the griefers are too close to our villages.

If some things change, we might some day have stable villages close to each other that DO launch organized raids on other villages. But I do not think that is an accurate reflection of the current game state.

Yes i never said it was a depiction of the current state of the game, but that's one of the goals with the rift, war swords, fences, languages etc.

If you remove the griefing then that's the scenarios that would happen at one point in the game, it probably did happen in some cases but went unnoticed between everything that was going on.

Spoonwood · 2019-08-11 19:32:16

Dodge wrote:

You're mistaking me, yes in the photos above it's obvious griefing.
The difference with raiding with intent and pure griefing is simple.
One as an intent, a story behind it ( "We raided this village for their engine because our town has oil but is out of iron and our lineage is going to die, every time i tried communicating with them they were hostile, so we had to do it")
This creates a greater and long term story between the two families, maybe they will come back to get the engine, maybe a peaceful arrangement will be made or some form of agreement or trading, offering protection etc.

No, it induces fear in people. Such fear results in less creativity in people and less willingness to build, because of a lack of safety. At least compared to a more isolated setup.

And in a way that's a significant problem with Jason's vision at present. It doesn't keep on encouraging creativity in players. There exists less civilization building in older towns than in newer ones, on average.

Spoonwood · 2019-08-11 19:35:42

Twisted wrote:

Thank you for the reset, Jason. That arc went on for far too long. I think one of the reasons we haven't hit the family limit is because there's just not enough players to get up to 35 different families. Even if there was 0 food whatsoever there would never be enough people to spawn 35 Eves.

I'd wager that the reason for the declining player average is not solely due to mass griefing (although that's definitely a factor), it's because lives in the rift are all very samey. I played a lot less this week specifically because of that.
Pre-rift you'd never know what kind of life you'd have, but post-rift (with the exception of the first ~10 or so hours) there's only one type of life - you spawn in a big fenced-off town with plenty of resources and all the tech, and said town is being attacked both from the inside by sheep griefers and from the outside by wandering Eves. It's not really a unique situation generator anymore when you know exactly what's going to happen before you even spawn in.

This makes for another example of why the death/decline of Eve camps isn't good for the health of the state of this game. It's not only not in line with the core concepts of the game (there exists less civilization building the more advanced a town becomes on average), but also it dovetails with towns feeling the same.

Along these lines, an Eve button really comes as long overdue. But, that would have to work with a system which isn't like the dreadful rift.

BladeWoods · 2019-08-11 19:38:42

Big problems:
Auto apocalypse never triggers
Can teleport items across the rift
Irremovable objects (engine towers and stone walls are the biggest offenders)
Too easy to cut all Junipers making fire impossible
People can keep living perpetually off of wild berry bushes which is I bet why you don't see any drop in average age even when shit goes to hell. Naked people running from bush to bush might even live longer on average than people in a town.

Dodge · 2019-08-11 19:43:17

Spoonwood wrote:

Dodge wrote:
Spoonwood wrote:
The same thing happened after the 'come together' disaster, which took weeks before it got undone. The whole concept of towns being close together, or any other means by which town walls/fences become desireable, makes for a serious problem/deficiency in game vision.
So you're saying villages should be as far as possible from each other and never have any interaction, how is that interesting?
Yes the previous examples in photos are griefing, but saying that the fences/walls wathever are only to prevent griefing is erroneous.
I didn't say that fences/walls are the only way to prevent griefing.
I didn't say that villages should be as far away as possible.
However, villages should not be so close that griefing by town outsiders becomes so easy.
A 700x700 rift clearly makes it so that griefing by town outsiders is easy, and it resulted in an easily discernible drop in the playerbase, so it's a flawed concept.
Also, it does come as more interesting to build towns up than to fend off outsiders. So, it would be more interesting to have towns as far away as possible from each other, because it makes so that each town has to come as self-sufficient, and has players *interested* in building up a town and maintaining it. It's interesting to have towns far apart, because you can kind of measure your own progress more easily that way. It's also interesting, because you have the ability to do that instead of worrying about griefers trying to kill people, destroy items, block off oil rigs, make multiple diesel water pumps near each other, etc. In other words, such would be interesting, because instead of encouraging that people have to fear outsiders and cope with that fear, such a system would enable more creativity in the playerbase. So, that's how it's more interesting.

"it's a flawed concept"

Just because it still has some issues to be fixed doesn't mean the whole concept is "flawed", it needs adjustment for sure but it's not flawed if it can be fixed and improved...

"So, it would be more interesting to have towns as far away as possible from each other, because it makes so that each town has to come as self-sufficient"

That's where you dont understand, you usually play your own game on low pop server and just build a town to make it look nice, you want a building game with no interactions between different players from different families or no interesting stories going on.

" such a system would enable more creativity"

How does not dealing with any issues enables creativity?

Do you mean creativity in terms of making a berry field look nice?

If that's the case you dont understand that "civilisation building" doesn't mean only making buildings or nice plank floors or a diesel engine, it's about building civilisations as a whole, the economy, the politics, the ressources, the families, the history, the culture, the rules etc.

jasonrohrer · 2019-08-11 19:44:36

Twisted wrote:

Pre-rift you'd never know what kind of life you'd have, but post-rift (with the exception of the first ~10 or so hours) there's only one type of life - you spawn in a big fenced-off town with plenty of resources and all the tech, and said town is being attacked both from the inside by sheep griefers and from the outside by wandering Eves. It's not really a unique situation generator anymore when you know exactly what's going to happen before you even spawn in.

Before I left town, I did see some interesting situations inside the rift, including large-scale spatial organization that was never really possible before (like the diagonal roads leading to the central Tarr monument, where all kinds of stuff had been built). The space was still huge, but there was a sense that there was some permanence happening, and long-term situations.

If all towns were the same, it sounds like that's because all towns were resource-rich and not stressed, right? I mean, stressed by griefers, but beyond that, not stressed in terms of "how are we gonna get enough resources to survive??" That is where unique stories are supposed to come from. Towns each having their own survival arc and rubbing up against other towns that have slightly different situations.

Dodge · 2019-08-11 19:53:56

jasonrohrer wrote:

Twisted wrote:
Pre-rift you'd never know what kind of life you'd have, but post-rift (with the exception of the first ~10 or so hours) there's only one type of life - you spawn in a big fenced-off town with plenty of resources and all the tech, and said town is being attacked both from the inside by sheep griefers and from the outside by wandering Eves. It's not really a unique situation generator anymore when you know exactly what's going to happen before you even spawn in.
Before I left town, I did see some interesting situations inside the rift, including large-scale spatial organization that was never really possible before (like the diagonal roads leading to the central Tarr monument, where all kinds of stuff had been built). The space was still huge, but there was a sense that there was some permanence happening, and long-term situations.

If all towns were the same, it sounds like that's because all towns were resource-rich and not stressed, right? I mean, stressed by griefers, but beyond that, not stressed in terms of "how are we gonna get enough resources to survive??" That is where unique stories are supposed to come from. Towns each having their own survival arc and rubbing up against other towns that have slightly different situations.

People are ressources too, but right now everyone that spawns in a village can do the exact same as everyone else, it's not like the last engineer died and you have to travel to another village to steal a pump or try to trade for one, or kidnap him so he can operate the diesel iron rig to get more iron.

CatX · 2019-08-11 20:02:02

jasonrohrer wrote:

If all towns were the same, it sounds like that's because all towns were resource-rich and not stressed, right? I mean, stressed by griefers, but beyond that, not stressed in terms of "how are we gonna get enough resources to survive??" That is where unique stories are supposed to come from. Towns each having their own survival arc and rubbing up against other towns that have slightly different situations.

I agree, it seems that right now what causes lack of resources is
- griefers killing all sheep
- griefers cutting down important trees
- griefers locking away items

We don't need griefers to create tension like this. Personally I don't think we need a finite map either, all it would take is something like seasons... For example, winter might mean no baby sheep, no farming, frozen pumps... Griefers are not needed to create this kind of tension.

sigmen4020 · 2019-08-11 20:02:32

Maybe a better form of reset would be a return of the Eve window, but also have the possibility of multiple arcs at the same time. For example if there are only very few families left in one arc a new arc starts its Eve window. Eventually that old rift will die out due to a lack of girls for example and everyone would be playing in the new rift.

If this system was implemented it should probably be limited to two rifts at a time, that makes the most sense.

jasonrohrer · 2019-08-11 20:07:00

Here's a new graph for you, with an extra one at the bottom:

Maybe... maybe.... the families were a little thin right there near the end. But didn't it get bad before that?

If I set the failure condition to 2 players per family (after the Eve window) it would have ended too early, maybe?

But yeah, I guess Players/Fam is really what I'm trying to get at here. That's a sign that things have gone bad, I think. Maybe 3 should be the threshold there.

Dodge · 2019-08-11 20:10:01

Or abduct the son of a tailor to make him work as a slave in the clothing factory, where he meets an old lady who has pitty for him and decides to let him free, full of anger he then decides to go on a murderous rampage and eventually manages to escape with a rubber cart full of the most prestigious clothes and baskets with the finest pies to bring back to his home family.

Amon · 2019-08-11 20:16:59

pein wrote:

Tree issue

I noticed planting trees is a lot more sucessful if you plant them somewhere obvious like the middle of the farms or another high traffic area. Plus it'll be easier to retrieve wood that way.
Trees However can grow up and grow old and wither within the lifetime of a human.

Dodge · 2019-08-11 20:17:34

There's currently infinite sources of food in the game (mostly berries and cactus), that's the main reason the graph doesn't show any interesting data.

You cant "fail" (at least not after a VERY long time), most of the people alive in the end part of that graph is due to these infinite food sources, if after a certain point we depended entirely on what we have to do, what we have to produce, the graph would be way different than currently.

jasonrohrer · 2019-08-11 20:25:16

Well, that's a question, right....

Is this true? Was the end of the graph mostly people scrounging wild foods?

Twisted said it was "same-y" toward the end, with everyone living in fenced towns with plenty of resources. That doesn't sound like nomadic scrounging to me.

Also, here's yesterday's food log:

Gooseberry	51823	155469
Cooked Mutton Pie	2275	29575
Cooked Rabbit Pie	1849	22188
Bowl of Stew	1545	18540
Bowl of Gooseberries	5937	17811
Cactus Fruit	1810	14480
Carrot	2891	14455
Cooked Berry Rabbit Pie	410	6560
Cooked Rabbit Carrot Pie	378	6048
Cooked Mutton	508	5080
Cooked Berry Carrot Rabbit Pie	188	3384
Slice of Bread	521	3126
Cooked Rabbit	379	3032
Bowl of Whole Milk	238	2856
Pork Taco	175	2625
Burdock Root	326	2282
Banana	321	2247
Cooked Berry Pie	219	2190
Cooked Berry Carrot Pie	162	2106
Wild Carrot	376	1880
Wild Onion	459	1836
Omelette	108	1836
Turkey Slice on Plate	105	1785
Bowl of Skim Milk	296	1776
Bowl of Turkey Broth	142	1420
Buttered Bread on Clay Plate	135	1350
Cooked Carrot Pie	262	1310
Shucked Ear of Corn	419	1257
Bean Burrito	66	1122
Bowl of Sauerkraut	239	956
Cooked Shrimp	106	954
Turkey Drumstick	40	680
Mango Slices	81	567
Cooked Goose	67	536
Popcorn	410	410
Bowl of Green Beans	187	374
Psilocybe Mushroom# remapStart	323	323
Bean Taco	30	300
Half Baked Potato	57	228
Baked Potato	54	216
French Fry	29	145
Cooked Fish	6	108
French Fry with Ketchup	8	80
Spoon of Ice Cream	9	72
Chip with Salsa	9	72
Tortilla Chip	15	60

People living on pies aren't scrounging, right?

rkrn · 2019-08-11 20:27:52

If trying to trigger a reset using player stats isn't viable, maybe try counting the existing bootstrapping items or resources? Like raw iron, trees, ponds, untapped springs, etc. If they fall under a certain number or ratio, the reset would be triggered? I'm bringing this idea here because basically that was what dragged this arc into it's zombie-mode. Griefed raw resources and no way for the existing resources to sustain enough Eves or families until the 35 family condition was triggered.

This method wouldn't work if natural resources would be tweaked to respawn randomly though. In that case the player/family condition would work.

The aim of the rift and closed space with finite resources is to make the players work together and keep a sustainable civ evolution, not consuming more than needed, but it's an idealistic scenario where you don't have griefers to destroy resources, so maybe a way to add a bit more resources from time to time would work...

jasonrohrer · 2019-08-11 20:31:25

Yeah, I may have to do something like that eventually. That's a pretty deep bit of coding, though, because it involves scouring the 500K tile area. Can't do that constantly, need to spread the scan out over time, etc.

Player measurements (like, how many peeps alive, etc) can be done instantly and constantly.

rkrn · 2019-08-11 20:38:06

It's gonna be a continuous trial and error until you'll stumble upon a good way to take the pulse of an arc from raw data, especially since the gameplay can be so diverse and subjective.

In the end, you got to decide on a way to measure the failure of an arc depending on what the arc is aimed at. So, sustainability? Working together? Pushing forward the tech? Sadly you can't emulate real life in a 60min game, especially trade: it takes several minutes in game to establish a trading relationship, which means several years out of a character's life. Most of the players want a tech-oriented gameplay, but honestly, I'm here for the ride whatever that may be. All these updates are interesting to analyze.

Spoonwood · 2019-08-11 20:44:37

Dodge wrote:

"it's a flawed concept"
Just because it still has some issues to be fixed doesn't mean the whole concept is "flawed", it needs adjustment for sure but it's not flawed if it can be fixed and improved...

The whole concept is flawed, because it leads to more griefing/griefing have a greater effect. Nope, it can't get fixed or improved.

Dodge wrote:

"So, it would be more interesting to have towns as far away as possible from each other, because it makes so that each town has to come as self-sufficient"
That's where you dont understand, you usually play your own game on low pop server and just build a town to make it look nice, you want a building game with no interactions between different players from different families or no interesting stories going on.

No. WHEN I was playing, I would do so mostly on server12 or other low pop servers. Server12 had a sizeable road structure that made it easy to interact with other players. I still wanted interaction with other players, just not as many people at once.

Dodge wrote:

" such a system would enable more creativity"
How does not dealing with any issues enables creativity?

Camps had issues before. So your characterization isn't accurate. They had issues, but not an issue of fear of outsiders.

Dodge wrote:

Do you mean creativity in terms of making a berry field look nice?

That's one form, but not the only one.

Dodge wrote:

If that's the case you dont understand that "civilisation building" doesn't mean only making buildings or nice plank floors or a diesel engine, it's about building civilisations as a whole, the economy, the politics, the ressources, the families, the history, the culture, the rules etc.

What you talking about? This game doesn't have an economy. Politics have been counter-productive... crown wearers haven't been good. Resources come as required for building. There is little to no sense of history in the game. And rules don't matter.

The rift idea hasn't improved those things either. Nor does it open new possibilities.

Spoonwood · 2019-08-11 20:46:23

CatX wrote:

Personally I don't think we need a finite map either, all it would take is something like seasons... For example, winter might mean no baby sheep, no farming, frozen pumps... Griefers are not needed to create this kind of tension.

I think you have a solid idea there.

Dodge · 2019-08-11 20:57:09

Spoonwood wrote:

What you talking about? This game doesn't have an economy. Politics have been counter-productive... crown wearers haven't been good. Resources come as required for building. There is little to no sense of history in the game. And rules don't matter.

Exactly now you understand why having villages far away and infinite ressources doesn't make it interesting, and what are the goals with the future updates.

Anyway if you dont understand that "civilisation building" means more than just making nice buildings, farms and some tools i cant do anything for you.

rkrn · 2019-08-11 20:59:18

Spoonwood wrote:

CatX wrote:
Personally I don't think we need a finite map either, all it would take is something like seasons... For example, winter might mean no baby sheep, no farming, frozen pumps... Griefers are not needed to create this kind of tension.
I think you have a solid idea there.

x2 hell yeah for this

Sopbucket · 2019-08-11 21:19:46

jasonrohrer wrote:

Twisted said it was "same-y" toward the end, with everyone living in fenced towns with plenty of resources. That doesn't sound like nomadic scrounging to me.

I think the nomadic lifestyles came later, after the scarcity of juniper trees made it impossible for some players to advance past basic farming (thankfully there were still plenty of bowls laying around). I know I only started being born into those lives in the last day or two.

Spoonwood · 2019-08-11 21:23:07

Dodge wrote:

Spoonwood wrote:
What you talking about? This game doesn't have an economy. Politics have been counter-productive... crown wearers haven't been good. Resources come as required for building. There is little to no sense of history in the game. And rules don't matter.
Exactly now you understand why having villages far away and infinite ressources doesn't make it interesting, and what are the goals with the future updates.

No. As villages were before, players were NOT playing by themselves. And no, you haven't provided any evidence that the new system is more interesting than the old. At least, if you're not a griefer. The old system had less griefing. The new system had more and will have more in the future.

DestinyCall · 2019-08-11 21:36:22

rkrn wrote:

Spoonwood wrote:
CatX wrote:
Personally I don't think we need a finite map either, all it would take is something like seasons... For example, winter might mean no baby sheep, no farming, frozen pumps... Griefers are not needed to create this kind of tension.
I think you have a solid idea there.
x2 hell yeah for this

I really like this idea too. Different crops could grow in different seasons too.

CatX · 2019-08-11 21:40:36

Dodge wrote:

Exactly now you understand why having villages far away and infinite ressources doesn't make it interesting, and what are the goals with the future updates.

People have different ideas of what interesting is. Some like to /die until they find the best place for them to live. I almost always play the life I'm given, because to me what is interesting is being born into different kinds of environments and making the best of the situation.

In a Rift world, we are bound to meet strangers in every life. I would find it more interesting if in some lives it was just me and my little family, far away from everyone, perhaps struggling to keep the line going because we knew that if the last girl dies, the whole city is lost. While in other lives, the opposite is true, there are so many different families present that we know that even if our family dies out, the town will continue.

I find it more interesting not knowing whether I'll be born to an Eve in the wilderness who has to start from scratch, or to a mother who stumbles upon an old town and decides to bring it back, or in a late game civilization where I have time to learn something new or just waste my time...

My impression was that before the Rift, the reason people didn't come together was not because they couldn't find each other. For example, in one town, someone was killing all Eves to protect the city. There seemed to be an Eve spawning point nearby. We didn't need the Rift to bring us closer together, we had the Eve spiral and a network of roads. Cars and aircrafts.

The reason families didn't meet up seemed to be purely an evaluation of game mechanics vs chance of survival - in other words a question of people's experience with griefing.

If the ability to make peace existed in the pre-rift worlds, my hunch is there would have been a lot more multi-family towns.

As for arcs, towns were dying out before the Rift as well, from lack of iron or oil. There might not have been a world arc, but there certainly seemed to be town arcs.

And yes, pre-Rift I did have lives where I spent my entire adulthood on horseback and only finding traces of people passing through the area, but no living soul. Some might hate those kinds of lives, but I valued them for being different. Call it the joy of exploring.

One Hour One Life Forums

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