Update broken cant get more iron

fug · 2020-03-29 10:47:56

Dodge wrote:

fug wrote:
You suggested rifts, then rifts 2.0. I asked Jason for contents instead of nerfs and you suggested "islands" for muh scarcity. I'm glad someone is out here licking Jason's balls so the bad content can continue.
First of all chill
Second i never suggested rift it was always oceans and continents/islands
Third if you dont understand that adding "iron walls" will not make things more interesting i cant do anything for you

First of all I've argued with you for what four days now about this issue and look how terrible it had turned out. You don't check anything for Jason but want to argue in favor of the worst possible ideas.

See point one. If someone suggested a fix to the issue you'd argue against it just for the sake of being a pest, (or do you not remember suggesting swords were balanced on release lmfao.)

Three you quote about me suggesting floors when I suggested stoves, furnaces, tool tables, floors, and walls. This idea was based off a better ohol (moelife.)

Jason earned all this venom when everyone but you and him argued against this update trying to tell you guys this would work piss poorly. Neither of you guys play the game nor do you understand it but want to go to fantasy land to base your experiences in.

This scenario is what happens when you only look at numbers and not take into account how a game plays but what can we really expect from Jason. Given ultimate freedom to live and learn he attacks someone on sight and then gets upset he has consequences.

It's easy to break something you don't understand hence why we have so many broken updates.

Last edited by fug (2020-03-29 10:49:06)

Dodge · 2020-03-29 10:59:25

fug wrote:

First of all I've argued with you for what four days now about this issue and look how terrible it had turned out. You don't check anything for Jason but want to argue in favor of the worst possible ideas.
See point one. If someone suggested a fix to the issue you'd argue against it just for the sake of being a pest, (or do you not remember suggesting swords were balanced on release lmfao.)
Three you quote about me suggesting floors when I suggested stoves, furnaces, tool tables, floors, and walls. This idea was based off a better ohol (moelife.)
Jason earned all this venom when everyone but you and him argued against this update trying to tell you guys this would work piss poorly. Neither of you guys play the game nor do you understand it but want to go to fantasy land to base your experiences in.
This scenario is what happens when you only look at numbers and not take into account how a game plays but what can we really expect from Jason. Given ultimate freedom to live and learn he attacks someone on sight and then gets upset he has consequences.
It's easy to break something you don't understand hence why we have so many broken updates.

Yeah you're mixing a lot of different stuff

I never suggested this idea, if you want to be mad then be mad at the person that actually suggested it.

I never argued in favor of this update except when i said "better than infinite iron" but that's about it, i said outposts where broken, and that the meta was killing whites etc to get new Eve's and iron, how is that arguing for the update?

And your suggestion of adding iron walls, stoves, floors or wathever is just not good if there is still infinite iron it doesn't matter, dont you get it?

Also being mad over how an update is played when still broken is just stupid.

The update is currently not the real update it's broken fug.

"This scenario is what happens when you only look at numbers and not take into account how a game plays"

No this scenario is what happens when there is a bug, at least wait before the real update before being upset about how the update plays.

sigmen4020 · 2020-03-29 11:01:32

Wow. This iron nerf ended up being unbalanced and broken. No one saw that coming.

fug · 2020-03-29 11:11:16

Oh please Tarr let my stupid idea see the light of day! We couldn't have known the bad update would be bad!

Again another game breaking bug is introduced because no thought is put into an update. Glad to see your ball gargling has made the game great.

Why didn't you take the time to test or check if the update was fucked up? Oh wait your job is to nod and suck, not to actually play or think about the game.

This is the problem when people who don't play the game encourage bad ideas. Broken messes that hopefully Daddy Jason will fix instead of making people suffer all today with.

Dodge · 2020-03-29 11:14:58

Oh wait you're talking to Twisted nvm my bad.

fug · 2020-03-29 11:17:21

Would make sense you can't hear anything down there. Gargle gargle Dodge.

Dodge · 2020-03-29 11:20:31

fug wrote:

Would make sense you can't hear anything down there. Gargle gargle Dodge.

You're the one who sucks right now

Go make some iron walls on moelife to calm down

fug · 2020-03-29 11:29:39

How about you double check Jason next time you're busy being his yes man. All it would have taken was checking onetech to prevent this but hey, that's time invested in the actual game instead of fantasy land. But hey, you got to break the game while everyone else was busy trying to warn Jason of this blunder of an update. Good job, I never would have thought the way to break the update was to essentially just agree with Jason's dumb idea.

Dodge · 2020-03-29 11:34:52

fug wrote:

How about you double check Jason next time you're busy being his yes man. All it would have taken was checking onetech to prevent this but hey, that's time invested in the actual game instead of fantasy land. But hey, you got to break the game while everyone else was busy trying to warn Jason of this blunder of an update. Good job, I never would have thought the way to break the update was to essentially just agree with Jason's dumb idea.

1. I dont care about checking transitions

2. Muddy veins not my idea

3. Get fucked

You're mixing everything up get your brain checked.

Léonard · 2020-03-29 12:13:17

Dodge wrote:

Yes add 10'000 ways to grill a potato so players have the freedom to do what they want to do about it.
Add as much content as you want and see players do the exact same thing as before just with different shapes and colors.
Shapes and colors woohoo!!!

Léonard wrote:

this fails to take in account the fact that we're talking about meaningful, tech-related content.
Jason really likes to completely disregard that part of the argument. Presumably out of laziness.

Dodge wrote:

Everyone that says "NEED CONTENT" never says what content would be interesting and for which reasons it would actually be interesting.

It's just like he said, Dodge.
Take your fingers out of your ears.

Dodge wrote:

doing the same thing with different shapes and colors.

I don't want to be rude, but honestly this is the worst part of your post.
It honestly looks like an insane reduction to me.
You're reducting "having more options in the game" to "different shapes and colors".

Let me try to explain it a bit more to you.
What's really implied here is "having more technological options in the game regarding means of production and structural organization of cities".
Do you see what I mean now?

When I see discussions in threads advocating for the replacement of huge berry fields by a more efficient, milk-driven food supply chain, I see choices.
I see real decision-making.
More ways of doing the same things.
Or as you like put it "different shapes and colors".

But, unfortunately, as I'm trying to explain to you, these kind of things cannot happen if you restrict what people can do in every way.
It's almost as if there needs to be some sort of surplus in resources for people to be able to take bold risks and have incentives resulting in choices that deviate from the norm.
It kind of reminds me of the success of supply-side economics in America.
Just look at this video, particularly this very passage is very telling.
Cutting taxes (lifting restrictions) enabled people to keep more of their own money and therefor encouraged them to take more incentives (which then enabled economic growth, etc, etc ...).

Humans are very good at this.
If the risk is too high, they will not take it and instead take the most well-established and well-tested route to avoid failure, resulting in the majority of people doing exactly the same thing.
There is no incentive to deviate from the mathematically most-efficient model/route when the game is designed to punish you as hard as possible.
This is all logical if you think about it. There is no way around it, people WANT to and WILL try to AVOID failure.

This is WHY we NEED to reverse this stupid trend of trying to make the game nintendo-hard, only to please just for a couple days the survivalists who never have enough of resource scarcity until they figure out the most efficient way of making things work only for then to repeat it ad infinitum and then go back to the beginning of the cycle where they complain that the game is bland and too much of the same.

Dodge wrote:

it's only going to be another object you craft without thinking about it, there's no decisions to make, no interaction, nothing more than crafting.

Exactly because of these very restrictions you so dearly love. Just as I have explained above.

When your game has reached the state where it is so hard that it's pretty much confirmed that it's just a bunch of expert veterans doing all of the work and carrying the whole village of new players that don't know how to do anything, of COURSE they are going to establish a strict meta and take the most efficient route every time.

It's the only way to guarantee the survival of your village.
Because. of. the. harsh. conditions.

Dodge wrote:

If the reason is "more stuff to do" then it's not interesting because it's just more of the same.

I know I'm gonna sound like spoonwood here for a moment, but do you not see the contradiction in your statement?
You want more decision-making, which requires, by definition, more choices.
Yet, at the same time, you state that "more stuff to do", in other words "more choices" is "more of the same".

This contradiction shows a very clear problem, Dodge.
The problem is your vision of things which is so nihilistic you compare different content with "different shapes and color".

If you think about it, having the possibility of choosing between different food supply-chains is just crafting different shapes and colors.
If you think about it, being wealthy and therefor having the option to dedicate your time to producing and exchanging rare luxury items isn't specialization or the beginning of trade and economics, it's just modern people being bored and worrying about things other than their own survival.
If you think about it, the universe is just a set of quantum elements interacting over-time in a deterministic system.
If you think about it, life is just a complex algorithm in that system, and is meaningless.

Dodge · 2020-03-29 12:32:26

Léonard wrote:

...

You use big words but they dont say much in practice.

I'm not against content but it has to be interesting

You know what if you actually have an interesting idea for content then share it.

"When I see discussions in threads advocating for the replacement of huge berry fields by a more efficient, milk-driven food supply chain, I see choices."

You already had that choice before, but guess what since iron was infinite eating berries until the end of days was still the number 1 way to go.

If Jason is able to actually work with iron in an interesting way then that choice between milk and berries will actually be interesting an make sense.

Do you see now? how the content can be interesting or not depending on the situation.

Last edited by Dodge (2020-03-29 12:32:48)

fug · 2020-03-29 12:35:35

The game being unplayable = interesting.

The game opening up more options for things to do = uninteresting.

Okay Dodge. Glad to see your opinions are just about as shit as your suggestions.

Elsayal · 2020-03-29 12:42:45

fug wrote:

The game being unplayable = interesting.
The game opening up more options for things to do = uninteresting.

This is not what he said. He said that changing context may change a lot of things, therefore be new / challenging / interesting.

But I guess you and Dodge want to be ennemies. If one say black, the other just say white.

Dodge · 2020-03-29 12:45:10

fug wrote:

...

You're a content brainlet you never suggested anything interesting then you criticize me for an update i didn't even suggest, are you dense?

If you have a better suggestion then go for it.

Highly doubt it since you still think that iron walls is the way to go.

Léonard · 2020-03-29 12:51:03

Dodge wrote:

You use big words but they dont say much in practice.

More like you don't have the capacity to understand them.
That's why I bother repeating myself multiple times with different words.
So you have a chance to assimilate the concepts I try to explain to you.

Your posts are generally short and barely allow the conversations to progress.

Dodge wrote:

You already had that choice before, but guess what since iron was infinite eating berries until the end of days was still the number 1 way to go.

These concepts included the idea that mechanically limiting people will make them be less inclined to take incentives and therefor result in less variation overall in the game.
Did you get it?

People didn't refrain from making this choice because iron is infinite, that's bullshit and you know it.
Even if iron is infinite eventually towns could still die due to a lack of it because people can't just travel infinitely.

People refrained from making this choice because the only people capable of making it needed to support a whole bunch of noobs behind.
Taking the risk of changing the noob-meta of simply staying in the berry field was too high because the game was made too hard for the non-veterans.

Dodge wrote:

You know what if you actually have an interesting idea for content then share it.

Did you read the previous posts I linked?

If you have truly read and understood them, then that should give you a pretty clear idea of what should be done next.
Adding the option of mass-producing (to sustain higher populations) and storing surplus of resources like I have always been saying to resume.
This recent thread should help you out a bit and a clear roadmap could even be made using it.

Dodge wrote:

Do you see now? how the content can be interesting or not depending on the situation.

Like I keep saying. I am obviously not advocating for dumb reskins. That should be obvious.
If you read my posts, that is.

testo · 2020-03-29 13:00:07

Dodge wrote:

Content is good, it's always nice to have new stuff but it should enable the game to be more interesting and not doing the same thing with different shapes and colors.

Except neither you or I get the monopoly to define what is interesting in the game. Several players have explicitly asked for more colors in this same forum and dyeing the clothing is a mayor moment for several players: they get to prepare all the dyes and mordant and go around town sharing everyone to dye their clothing.

I would say there is reasonable evidence to say that doing the same thing in different colors in the game is actually really interesting and important for many people. You can make a search for all the fashion and color threads, this is not something i´m making up. I could add more examples like the color themed roleplayed gangs and all the petitions to make pigments for paint more accesible.

In the topic of the shapes I would also say there is reasonable evidence to support that people expect variety and find super interesting to experiment using different shapes for buildings, for example. I won´t flood you with the topics about shrines, gardens, buildings, town design and patterns that people have shared around here, what I expect from you is to understand that variety in shapes and colors is something missing but important because they help to give an identity to the culture and civilization we are supposed to be recreating. That is missing important content, even if the gameplay for each village was to be the same.

Dodge wrote:

A lot of games have huge amounts of content but are just plain boring.

I don´t understand what are you implying here, maybe you are trying to get the point about content not being the essence of this game?
I agree with that, the core of this game are the interactions it creates and how people get together to survive, or as Jason put it in a few words "I want a puzzle where each part of the puzzle has its own motives and goals..." or something like that. But note that most of the playerbase is not asking for a huge amount of content. Just varied content to explore. For example Tattoo shops where an amazing content addition. I believe i´ve never had people jump in or get more excited easily than when I say "hey lets make a tattoo shop", even if they don´t even know how to make black dye or make a tattoo. Just like colors and shapes: tattoos are useless for surviving. Completely and utterly useless, you don´t get food or any kind of value from them and you even waste thread and rope for some of them, not even counting the water wasted in making black dye. And yet several people love them, new people love to "be the tattoo guy" and explore how many tattoos there are. Seriously they go around town giving tattoos to kids and there is no shortage of tattooed people that leave their clothing just to see their character with a few damn dotted pixels. Another great "content" addition? Playable pine walls and pine floors, as simple as that. How many towns have you seen without pine floors since they came up? How many different shapes have you seen for the pine walls? even the infamous pods of zucc town where interesting.

All that points to one thing: this game can get a lot of simple content that is not necesrily boring to the players. I believe you value scarcity and challenge to survive as "interesting" and I have it on you to have said something among on the lines of "it is boring if every resource is infinite and there is no challenge to survive". Well, i would say you are just defining what you find boring as a person, but just as we don´t get to define what interesting is we don´t get to define what boring is.

The underlying problem here is the lack of perspective Jason has regardless of content addition. Several times he has made huge claims about the number of unique craftable objects and whatnot in the game but we all know the n unique transitions of a sheep are just sheep as content. Im not trying to look down on his work, I know he works hard in this game. But last week it was readily obvious that he sees almost anything new as content, when he highlighted how he had made dozen of new piles of objets. Do we really consider pile of clay new interesting content?

Dodge wrote:

Everyone that says "NEED CONTENT" never says what content would be interesting and for which reasons it would actually be interesting.

I believe the forum is literally filled with ideas and proposals, from new clothing items to diseases and crafting. And many people have just given up making suggestions at this point since its pretty much a dead effort to elaborate on something that won´t be even look at as an idea. When I say need content im pretty open to play with whatever I get to try and experiment, from property fences to pine walls. Why would it be interesting? Idk, I like to craft and try new stuff. I even consider shoveled rabbits interesting content since you get to move them around.

Last but not least, I can tell you that 2ohl, molife, YAH and crucible managed to make some new content to try. It is not that much what we are asking here.

Dodge wrote:

If the reason is "more stuff to do" then it's not interesting because it's just more of the same.
For example you can add an "iron stove" to the game so there is more stuff to do with iron but if there's still an infinite quantity of iron then it's only going to be another object you craft without thinking about it, there's no decisions to make, no interaction, nothing more than crafting.

Except again, you are just trying to force your view on what is or is not interesting. Some people find wine interesting content, they get to learn how to make glass and make a new crop. Is it a good food? nope. Is it fun? Well it seems it is, given that a lot of people like to cheer around or even roleplay as the drunken villager, crafting can be interesting while it goes related to a story and players interactions. Not everything is about a decition to make (do I take a glass of wine or not?) but about the character you play in the story. Afterall "you are part of something bigger" was supposedly the motto of this game, no?

Dodge · 2020-03-29 13:12:01

Léonard wrote:

...

Way too much text that dont say much interesting

Anyway your solution is this right?:

"Adding the option of mass-producing (to sustain higher populations) and storing surplus of resources like I have always been saying to resume."

First of all why you want to sustain higher populations when most villages have 5-7 players 10 max?

Second if there is a surplus of everything then what is the game about? What are you going to do with your life? You just take a bunch of ressources from the stock and go make yourself a tiny little house with a garden?

When i'm saying player choice i dont mean the choice to go build an altar or make a birthday cake, sure those things should be in game but i'm talking about players making decisions together, organizing a society, having to make decisions with consequences.

Not decisions based on "what do i feel like doing in my memelife" "maybe i could roleplay a gravedigger or a traveler" that's the choice you're talking about right?

And if you're talking about choices between berries and milk then it's not really a choice since it's obvious that it's milk but if you have 99 stacks of iron you can eat berries for days and that choice is meaningless.

But if you're limited on ressources then you have to choose wisely on what you are going to do and that's when content becomes interesting. Since one way to use ressources is the right one in that particular situation and leads to success/progress and the other leads to potential loss and failure, your choices have actual consequences and matter.

If you have plenty of everything you think it matters what you do with it?

Ever seen those rich kids that burn money? (literally and metaphorically)

fug · 2020-03-29 13:23:12

Dodge wrote:

fug wrote:
...
You're a content brainlet you never suggested anything interesting then you criticize me for an update i didn't even suggest, are you dense?
If you have a better suggestion then go for it.
Highly doubt it since you still think that iron walls is the way to go.

Keep latching on part of a comment Dodge.

I suggested various iron sinks as a means of getting rid of the state of having piles and piles of the crap which could also lead to quality of life updates such as actual metal ovens such as a coal oven, a steel based furnace, or even walls and or flooring like other versions of the game. Instead of taking the opportunity to make some costly (albeit) small upgrades we could finally have a visual difference from early game and late game. In relation to the mining thing I suggested doing something like fishing where you have a chance for different materials so mining is less about quickly clicking and more "interesting" overall as you'd put it.

We've been using the same oven and kiln for two years don't you think its time for an upgrade? Oh wait, you'd rather the game continuously cut sections out of itself in order for someone who doesn't play the game in the first place to find it interesting. You're pushing incredibly dumb ideas on the game and you aren't the one who suffers for your lack of thinking things through, it's the community and people actually playing the game who suffer because of it.

This is how we're in this stupid situation where you can't get more iron, and if you're any color other than ginger you can't get oil. Everything is being balanced currently around the very best players which leads to new players never being able to make the jump from intermediate to veteran player without a bunch of self teaching. We're losing out being able to teach people more advanced things than farming because veterans are stuck carrying each and every village they spawn in which is goofy.

Locking content behind races is really what fucked some of the game up because it reduced the amount of things people could do for the sake of being "interesting." People loved the fancy clothes update because it let you make all these neat colored clothing which allowed more expression of self and that was cool. Shit doesn't have to be plane levels of tech to make an impact on the game at all, it just has to be accessible. I haven't seen green sets of clothing in months because he basically removed the ability to make it which is pretty lame. This is the same issue we're going to see with iron because "muh scarcity" you and Jason keep pushing. We'll stop seeing tracks, we'll stop seeing spring doors, and slowly but surely the game will become worse because we're again cutting content.

Due to the bug cutting off iron much too early in the lifespan of a village we see exactly how this update is intended to play and it's absolutely terrible. You'd think after six months of the rift it would be common knowledge that scarcity does not make the gameplay of ohol better. The fun of the game comes from the many options, the interactions, the stories, the freedom of choice and not from eliminating pieces of the tech tree. I'd ask Jason to play and see what an abomination the game is right now but he'd probably put about as much effort into it as last time we asked him to try something.

Léonard · 2020-03-29 13:40:25

Dodge wrote:

Way too much text that dont say much interesting

Because you don't read it, as evidenced by the garbage content of your post.

Dodge wrote:

When i'm saying player choice i dont mean the choice to go build an altar or make a birthday cake, sure those things should be in game but i'm talking about players making decisions together, organizing a society, having to make decisions with consequences.

That's literally in the fucking posts I linked.
Like seriously, go read the fucking posts, jesus.

Léonard wrote:

It's a known fact that such type of civilizations historically evolved when the population grew bigger and denser which happened only because people could be even more efficient with production.
[...]
you find yourself with a surplus of food and the problem of distribution arises.
[...]
If you could optimise food production, people could overtake big projects, such as a greater and privatized (via buildings) food production.
They could then use pies as currency. Modern problems require modern solutions.
You would have a primitive form of government. A primitive society with a primitive form of property.

Dodge wrote:

Not decisions based on "what do i feel like doing in my memelife" "maybe i could roleplay a gravedigger or a traveler" that's the choice you're talking about right?

No you retard.
Are you being dense on purpose?
This surplus that you feel makes the game so meaningless is exactly what enables you to create and organize a complex society.

Again, read the fucking posts.
Seriously I'm tired of this.
The discussion hasn't progressed in an entire year because of morons like you who do not bother to read what people say or suggest and would rather spend their day beating a strawman they made up because they are too intelectually lazy to properly debate people's arguments.

I'm not going to bother with the rest of your garbage until you actually read the posts and actually attempt to refute my ideas.
Either actually read what people suggest or shut the fuck up.

Dodge · 2020-03-29 14:16:15

Léonard wrote:

...

I'm not reading all that garbage get to the point instead of writing an essay.

"This surplus that you feel makes the game so meaningless is exactly what enables you to create and organize a complex society."

We had surplus for months and months and it was boring as fuck, was there complex society?

No

Did players organize and made important decisions that could lead to meaningful consequences?

No

Adding a bunch of stuff like fug suggests is not going to bring us anywhere unless the context is different if the game plays fundamentally the same way then your just doing the same thing and expecting a different result.

fug wrote:

In relation to the mining thing I suggested doing something like fishing where you have a chance for different materials so mining is less about quickly clicking and more "interesting" overall as you'd put it.

So you just quickly click until you get iron and trash all the other materials?

Nice...

And even if you're talking about adding a time gate to it + randomizer

With infinite mines since infinite map, players would just wander around the map and click every mine to get their ressources, in other words getting iron would be very annoying and at the same time still be infinite.

Also nerfing the number of veins to limit access is obviously out of the question since it would be shit for Eve's and still too easy for horsecarts advanced civs.

Only interesting thing about your idea is the "jackpot effect" that you get when mining and finally getting the ressource you want but this has nothing to do with how players would use the ressources.

Travel from mine to mine, JACKPOT!!! i got iron, then on to the next mine on your horsecart (and fuck Eve's btw), that's what you're proposing in a nutshell, might as well go to the casino and play the slot machine.

Elsayal · 2020-03-29 14:18:49

Léonard wrote:

fucking .. fucking .. retard ... fucking ... morons ... intelectually lazy ... garbage ... shut the fuck up.

I'm not sure talking like that will help ppl read your ideas, don't you think ?

Dodge · 2020-03-29 14:51:35

cordy wrote:

Dodge wrote:
First of all why you want to sustain higher populations when most villages have 5-7 players 10 max?
I thought all this resource nerf updates/experimentation is "to fix the broken core of the game"....which means you want the game to be better, more marketable, more money for the dev, more players per hour/day. That means fixing the core of the game should also include the ability to support "higher populations".

Yes that's why i think not being able to make outposts like currently is not a good idea.

Technically you could just spawn new Eve's if there is too much people.

But having big civilizations with lots of players could be interesting but i dont think the server can even handle it at the moment anyway.

Even in the big cities we had before when there was too many players it started lagging.

jinbaili83 · 2020-03-29 15:06:08

Core of game will always be broken, this game engine strugles to have any complex systems. Adding wierd non intuitive gimmiks like iron tapout will not help.

Why have map 4x size of Jupiter when only one object can ocupy single tile, a single seed takes as much space as boulder.
This is only one wierd design choice.

Without rewriting most basic stuff, this game will never be more than berry farming sim.

Twisted · 2020-03-29 15:07:29

Dodge wrote:

We had surplus for months and months and it was boring as fuck, was there complex society?
No
Did players organize and made important decisions that could lead to meaningful consequences?
No

...what? Are we even talking about the same game here?

Don Holm · 2020-03-29 15:16:46

DestinyCall wrote:

We do care about resources, Dodge. Gathering and building and making tech is 90% of this game. People can't do anything useful without the right tools. I don't understand why you think we don't care about iron. It is one of the most important resources in the game. When a village has an abundance of iron by the forge it means than many players made an effort to gather up a bunch of the stuff and bring it home with them so the village would thrive.
Of course we care.
There is no need to remove all the free iron from the game to force us to care about each piece as if it was the village's last girl child. That is overkill.

Couldn't say it better!

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#46 2020-03-29 14:18:49

Re: Update broken cant get more iron

#47 2020-03-29 14:51:35

Re: Update broken cant get more iron

#48 2020-03-29 15:06:08

Re: Update broken cant get more iron

#49 2020-03-29 15:07:29

Re: Update broken cant get more iron

#50 2020-03-29 15:16:46

Re: Update broken cant get more iron

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