a multiplayer game of parenting and civilization building
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I remember making a quick mockup (https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ … nknown.png) on the OHOL discord back in February just to imagine what it might look like.
That's not a great look. It looks like there's a 'forbidding' slash. Better to just offset ghost a box 'underneath' each, like a drop shadow, except it's the opposite of a shadow. That would also make it automatically and intuitively conform with 2x the length of the current bar. The boxes on top fill first, the boxes 'underneath' fill on overeating.
I don't know why these decisions by Jason still surprise people. This is his MO, just like Destiny said. He doesn't have a plan, he's just reacting to things, and throwing stuff against the wall and seeing what sticks, and mopping up the mess when it doesn't. He doesn't know how to design a survival game, despite his 16 years etc (regardless of what he wants the 'overall' game to be, it's still built on a survival game framework)
Wow, you're really talking through your hat here Jason. ONI is 50x the game OHOL is. Yes it has many times the number of people working on it, and it shows! Way more and better sounds, incredibly more and better animation, art is obviously far superior.
As many people have pointed out, every situational variant of a dog or pig doesn't get to count as a separate thing, nor every slight graphical variation of a rift. Nobody cares about a tied skewer as an object. It's only use is to make an arrow. You only get to count a string, a skewer, a flint, a feather, and an arrow as separate objects. Not all the combinations on the way to an arrow. you don't get to count a bear, and each of the 3 bears with arrows as separate bears. They're just 1 bear. Be real. And, as someone else pointed out, everything in ONI fits and works. There's no useless dogs or pine walls in oni. No top tier tech that serves just to waste resources.
They also didn't take shortcuts in their artwork. Everything has unique art. A normal storage compactor looks entirely different from a smart one. The smart one isn't just the normal sprite with alight on top. The small transformer is completely separate art from the larger one. Contrast this with OHOL where a box sprite is used to make a box, a box with lid, a slot box, a wheelbarrow, a sledge, a CAR, and an *AIRPLANE*. You *really* phoned it in on the slot box, car and airplane Jason. ESPECIALLY the car and airplane.
And they will rework stuff when they make a mistake. They reworked the disease system 3 times at least, and the job system I don't know how many times. I guess that's a perk of having more than 1 person on staff. Compare this to OHOL which is saddled with a poorly chosen tile system that cannot interact with neighboring tiles, and a character system that relies on pre-made faces, rather than randomizing a variety of features to allow people to look more different.
And most of all Klei is not flailing about trying to make a great game, and not really looking like they're going to succeed. They've made it, they succeeded, it's out. Klei is an incredible studio the works really well with their community, and puts a high polish on their stuff. You're really trying to punch far above your weight pursuing this comparison.
this kind of attitude is why we have a tarr monument instead of tarr playing the game nowadays
My favorite part about the Tarr monument is that Jason straight up copied it from Theodor Seuss Geisel. Even copied Mr. Geisel's verse when he added it. A surprising move for someone that previously presented an 'all-original' game, and in the not too distant past was demanding that ohol mobile replace all Jason's artwork, because 'muh legacy'. I think Tarr Galted-out, finally. Good on him.
Jason is as usual somewhat unaware of the problem we're reporting
Oh, he's aware. But you're like children to him (0 game dev experience children). The more he gives in to your whining, the more you'll whine. So he'll offer every solution BUT the one you're asking for. Also he's probably actually made pork tacos. So this is a pine wall situation. He's done it, so he's making you do every tortured step, regardless how unbalanced compared to other similar in-game products. He's obviously never made mutton pies though - maybe not any pies at all - since he's made those dead simple.
I'm not sure how spawns work in Minecraft. I don't think stuff ever respawns, but I'm not sure. You can obviously strip-mine the surface, and I don't think trees regrow if you do that. But the world is infinite, so it really doesn't matter. There's always more of anything you need by walking farther or digging farther.
Again, no trade, no real stranger interaction or cooperation needed, lots of solo projects built in parallel (I'm talking about on public servers). Things LOOK like towns, but only because people are building nice-looking pretend towns. Not because people actually live there. I don't think there's decay of player structures, and regular map wipes aren't part of the culture.
It's kind of hilarious that this is the extent of your knowledge with regard to minecraft. These issues have been addressed, in a pretty successful fashion. But by players, not a 16+ year dev. So I know it's of no interest for you.
I now have SIXTEEN years of experience.
I take it back; that was quite modest of you to round your years of experience to whole years as they are met, rather than informing us of each month as well along the way. I look forward to the addition of juggling to the game! That would be consistent. Might want to do a fiddle next.
I'm not seeing anything creative from anyone of you on this forum.
Oh you hadn't heard? Almost nobody on these forums has 15 years of game development experience, and if you don't have 15 years of game development experience, you can take your creative ideas and shove 'em. Only massive bug/mechanic abuse moves Jason.
Nothing going on here is surprising given Jason's hubris.
I've been noticing the number of players on when I check has been dipping into the 70s of late, compared to what used to be 90s and 100s. So ya, there does seem to be attrition lately. Which would seem to be a bad trend for a game that requires other players to play. Unless most of that is driven by CCM. Since they still require game purchase (last I understood) if that were the case that would indicate a more steady state as far as game purchases I suppose, depending how many regular players they have. I question whether it really helps to fragment the community though. But then, I don't have the skills (or hubris) generated by 15 years of game development, so maybe I'm wrong. I can only say that I've decided to sit ohol out and wait for the next guy to do it better. Maybe the next guy will have 20 years of experience and forsee the benefits of things like tile interaction, or container variety, or actual useful tech progression.
Well everyone has pretty much said it well but just to reiterate: this won't work under the current regime because everyone is too far away. Even IF you reduced the spawn distance to where people might meet, the work required to make each 'race' livable in their biome for a time would be a significant part of fully independent biome work. AND even if you do that, what happens when the nearby complementary tribes die off early, for any number of reasons? Now you've got nobody in range, and you're tech-locked. Does that honestly sound fun to you Jason?
If everyone spawns very close, and green biome is the only common biome, then everyone is going to end up concentrated in green biomes, in single settlements. What happens when you're born in a green biome btw? You can do anything from any biome? Nothing from any other biome? So now towns are forced to manage a bunch of nurseries bordering other biomes to get specialized babies? Or is the biome gene passed down? So now towns need to maintain population from each lineage? And they already have a hard enough time just maintaining women at all? I mean seriously how is this part going to work?
So at best - assuming everyone concentrates in one green town and can maintain the separate gene lines, all you're doing is forcing people to individually specialize, not have inter-town trade. You're going to increase dramatically the suicide rate, because who honestly wants to be locked into basket making and pottery? Your experienced players are only going to suicide till they're mountain people because all the fun stuff is in metal. Who wants to be a plains person after the town has sheep, and the only thing you're good for is backpacks and stew farming? Who's going to want to be a swamp person when the town already has unending immortal plates and bowls, wheat for baskets, and pumped wells made? Nobody is going to want to be pigeon-holed Jason. That's not an attractive game feature in this type of game.
And in the end, it's not going to cause trade. Again, it's just going to cause people clumping together in green biomes and toiling at their forced specialization, just giving their stuff away because that's the only way the town will survive, and then finally throwing in the towel when the mountain line dies out.
I want to reiterate, right now you can have a settlement come back from a marginal population drop to like, 3 people. Even just one technically. But you're idea would create a much more precarious situation, where you're going to need to maintain a minimum population of what, 6-10 people from 3-5 different biomes? This will crater civilization advancement.
Can't see the resource to interact? Come on, this is the gamiest of gamey gimmicks.
Twisted is right, luxury goods could be used to stimulate some trade, maybe. It would be sporadic, and I don't think anyone would go to war over it. But it may create some trade activity in the right circumstances.
What I think might be even more interesting though, would be if those resources only spawned in the center of large and unfriendly biomes. It could break up the settlement location meta, possibly. So Marble spawns in mountains, silk in jungles, purple plant in plains, gold in arctic, etc. Basically anything but green or swamp biomes. You can settle directly on a resource to control it well, or settle outside the biome in a better spot, but then you risk not being able to control the resource if another family spawns in the area. As long as the resource only appears in the middle of a guaranteed large biome, you set up an interesting choice.
Jason could possibly even adjust spawn mechanics to spawn a few eves within a given radius of a given resource node, essentially moving from node to node in a spiral, and spawning eves in a ring around each node. Gives more opportunity for competition.
Amen Amon. I just shake my head seeing people talking like ropes are the only thing that can or will ever existing for binding. Think outside the box people! Like Amon says, we already have the animal bones, and we already have the crocks. Glue would be a trivial addition. You could involve paper+glue+sand=sandpaper, Jason could make more Dr. Suessian addons for the shopsmith newcomen multipurpose machine. Hell it's already got a 'bore'. Nails via a blade blank+chisel or whatever. The options are many and wouldn't take that many additional sprites.
But, as i've wanted for a long time, I want nice furniture to decay quickly outdoors. It should need to be inside a building to persist. Huzzah! Need for buildings! We can drop the whack-a-mole building temperature mechanic game!
For trade, well, like I suggested last time, you need to give families the ability to control EXCLUSIVE resources. That's how trade happens. Civilization-style 'wonders' that only one town can build on the whole server, thus giving them exclusive monopoly on the resource that 'wonder' creates. These will necessarily involve higher tech. Then you make a wonder-tech web, that involves needing items from different wonders to create higher tech. This necessitates trade for anyone that wants the really good stuff. If you also want war, make it so only a family can take over a wonder from another. Then they have the option of trading or fighting.
The notion of making a large web of 'luxury' items might work. If they are all appealing. We already have tons of useless 'luxury' goods and mushrooms are the only really interesting one, for the laughs. How are you going to duplicate that across a web? I think it would be hard to balance. Is anyone seriously going to trade a car for any number of mushrooms?
Giving regions 'specialties' will not work at it stands. There are too many food types and all the farmable ones - by nature - are unlimited, none is worth trading iron for, since the majority can be produced anywhere. If you limited what can be 'farmed' in a given region, it probably won't matter because every region would still need a complement of local foods, or nobody can survive there to start. Such a region would be strictly for colonization from another town. Jason has already said that he doesn't want to make every region have it's own distinct tech web. This makes sense. Why should he spend 6x the effort making what will effectively be re-sprited items, vs using that effort to make 6x the actual new content? I would vastly prefer new content over re-spriting existing stuff. moreover region specialties will naturally make people settle at region borders, to access the maximum number of biomes. Jason is going to end up having to constantly be re-balancing and chasing exploitative behavior. You can't make the biomes too large or trade will never happen outside of airplanes. Too small and it's too easy to access them all. Wonder-style resources avoid that issue, since you can build the wonders wherever.
As for making people care about their family here and now without return mechanics? Good luck. That's really up to the player. They have to be the type of person that wants to establish rp connections. This already happens. The other type are the job and tech oriented players. I don't think they'll care, without the ability to come back and hopefully continue a project/work at a higher tech level.
Shrinking island is a bad idea. All that will happen is Tarr and the other techno-players will figure out where the center is, and build their town there. In a shrinking map scenario the most valuable thing is the real estate that will be consumed last. So this mode automatically favors those who know how to coord dive.
Limited map may work, depends on a lot of other factors including how trade is set up. But I think you should limit it regardless. I never did understand why you thought the map needed to be 'larger than earth' Jason. Everything is so same-ey it doesn't matter. What's the largest eve spiral that has ever happened? That will suggest a starting point.
I don't like limiting eves. People like to be eves. You'll get more people leaving town to start their own probably. If you limit eves I do agree with whoever talked about allowing marriage to change name of that branch of family. However it should require a spouse from a different surname, not the same. This can give rise to scenarios where two families get into conflict, and some amongst them opt out and start their own new families, far from the war. I could also see it as increasing murder of strange men, who would probably have a tendency to 'steal' women from the existing family. Which is true to life historically, I think. And very bad for the existing family, in the game.
Or the cost of grave digging could be reduced to allow it to be more in line with tree-chopping.
As long as it's code-possible to inidividually adjust the cost of each act - and it seems that is the case - then it's clearly simpler to just adjust the cost of grave-digging - and any other act in question - rather than make an entire other tool. Do we really need another tool head in the lineup?
I would be okay with a non-shovel related way to dispose of the dead.
Yes, a 'crypt' wall would be great. Stone wall plus another pile of stones = empty crypt, with 9 niches for bones. Graveyard size reduced by a factor of 9. Only works on east-west walls, obviously.
I think the real problem is compost. Shovels should be used for digging, composting should be done by a dedicated tool such as a manure fork.
I don't think that really helps the issue. I'd say the issue is that digging graves has no benefit in terms of food or tech progression, or resource gain. It's an 'rp' act. Therefore it makes more sense to make it cost-less. If you leave it costing shovel uses, and make a separate tool for composting, that doesn't fix the issue. It'll still cost iron either way. I think the op's solution makes more sense.
Fencing bears will be nice, fencing off iron veins... a new kind of evil?
Bears are the kind of thing that will be easy to forget and let lapse, unless the cave is literally in town. Iron veins only works as long as the griefer is alive (or rather, for an hour) - I wouldn't worry about it. It would take extraordinary luck and timing for that to work as a griefing tactic.
What makes you think they are infinite?
I wasn't seeing any of it on onetech (and I still don't), so I was just going based off Jason's previously stated objective to make the fences basically free. If you only got a limited number from a branch, that would make them decidedly not-free, especially in the eve camp stage where, depending on how you settled, every straight branch can be precious for quite awhile. Even if limited though, if the branch produced any more than one stick, and the sticks could become kindling, it would be unbalancing.
Also, any chance we could get these sticks made from yew branch instead of long branches? The long branch already has a ton of useful applications. Yew branches are under-utilized by comparison.
Strongly agree. Or at least either/or.
The thing is, you already had the ability to do this. you already had the ability to make a 'safe' work space. But Jason thought people needed the ability to have 'private property' early. Remember that you're going to spend many minutes setting up the fence, getting it to solidify, and then you'll have to 'reset' it every 50 minutes or so. Is it really that much better than simply building a normal walled building that could last the life of the town? Is it better than if he'd just added the gates by themselves, and had people still build the buildings proper? I guess we'll see.
One major issue I notice from looking at the transitions - property sticks should be destructable. Can we get a transition that converts property sticks to kindling using axe or hatchet?
Can you get infinite sticks from one branch? If so turning the sticks into kindling would be OP.
What do intentions matter here? The result is that the grocer feeds the village.
I think his point was to point out that the rl grocer has different motives than the game baker.
The game baker is motivated to feed the village. There's nothing to trade for in any real sense.
The rl grocer's motive is to profit. Whether that be money or barter or whatever.
profit and private property go hand in hand. Feeding the village and private property don't really. They can coexist, but feeding the village does not require private property.
You are talking about different times entirely. The "middle ages" in Europe are not the same as ancient times before there was money. In Europe a family would own the "communal oven" and rent it out to whoever needed it.
You said there was no "centralized bakery", not that 'there was no centralized bakery that was owned by everyone'. Money has nothing to do with it, nor who 'owned' it (and it was not always an individual, sometimes it was the government - thereby communal). Either way it was still a centralized communal oven, in the sense that the whole community used it. You paid with a portion of your bread, or whatever else the baker might want.
The reasons of efficiency and time saved (even skill to some degree) were the same in ancient times, the same in medieval times, and are the same in game.
There was no centralized bakery nor did they mass produce everything.
That was not true everywhere, especially in Europe. Communal bakeries were very much a thing until very recently (relatively speaking). People grew their grain, had it ground at the central mill, and had it baked at the communal oven. There were a variety of reasons for this, but it was very much the standard in Europe at least, up until a century ago in places.
Why do you think that "property rights" entails "starving off" the rest of the village?
The grocer owns the groceries, and you can't just walk in and take groceries. The grocer is apparently hoarding all of the food, and starving out the rest of the town. In fact, the only way I can get food, currently, is to get it from the grocer. And yet, almost no one in western civilization starves to death. How is that possible?
Even in communist regimes, food was not just free for the taking by whoever wanted it. It was tightly controlled and rationed.
In a well-functioning village, who eats the pies? The 3-year-old kids? The grandparents? The griefers? If the pies are just sitting there, there will be a bunch of waste.
"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs."
The key word there is "needs," not "wants," let alone, "wildest dreams."
I mean, you realize your game is nothing like real life right? None of these are anything close to a valid comparison. It all comes down to time, and life. Irl, we have just one life, so we obey laws and convnentions. In ohol, our lives in game are unlimited. So why not murder someone that ticks us off in game? Even if we get killed, we'll be back, probably in a similar town.
On the other hand we have 1 hour in game. Not years to build up a business, the skills to own the business, and the society with the laws required to successfully pass on that business to our children (much less the years required to establish an emotional connection with these children so that we'd even *want* to pass anything down to them). Our time in game is so limited it's largely useless to try and establish ownership over anything beyond what we can carry.
It's like you're sitting in a McDonalds wondering why nobody cares about their soft drink cup and tray and bag and napkins and packets of ketchup. Why would they? They'll just get the same things the next time they come into McDonalds. They purchased both the food and the containers and condiments. It's all theirs. But they only care about the food, because that's what they're there for. The rest is trappings, easily and immediately replaceable with identical items the next time they come by.
What wild food regenerates? Berries is the only one, right?http://onehouronelife.com/foodStats.php
Cactus fruit. Eggs. Rabbits. On the opposite end from food leaks, can we get potatoes fixed? Just one shovel use digs them all and leaves them sitting on the row? So it doesn't take 10 uses of a shovel to harvest a full row? This food stuff seems like it'd better as a separate topic, honestly.
a good currency can be berry bowl with a carrot which is sheep food or compost, which always valuable
Where will this come from? The person who is the 'mint' and owns all the berries and carrots? Will every person have their own berry and carrot farm? Ya, you're definitely going to NEED that compost when everyone has their own farms to maintain. Berries are not ownable - your town will starve out. So do this thought experiment; irl, all the money is just in a big pile in the middle of the city. Anyone can grab it whenever they want. Does that sound like a stable or useful money supply? The bowls would be the defactor limiting factor in that currency system. You can't have the basic newb-sustaining food component be part of the money supply. Your town will starve to death. Iron is the only realistic option for 'money' right now. And there's just no point.
What I am hoping to see is pitbull pens, where a griefer breeds a pen full of pitbulls/wild boars near town, safe from interference, then lets them out to wreak havok. That would be hilarious. Probably hard for the griefer to survive to witness the end result though.
