Getting rid of the rift, but maintaining resource depletion

tool-geek · 2019-07-29 23:49:21

To simulate resource depletion without the rift (an artificial solution to the problem), rework the "reclaimed by nature" mechanic instead.

When an area is reclaimed by nature, instead of the old mechanic where everything regenerated, this will happen:
1) All inorganic objects will no longer be regenerated - iron, stones of any sort, etc.
2) Organic objects will regenerate depending on the object. Trees and plants will regrow quickly, but oil will take about one year real-time to regenerate (about 500,000 game years), etc.
3) All things built with inorganic material will not be reclaimed, but tools will corrode (recyclable like broken tools are currently), sharp stones are weathered into round stones, etc. Stone walls and floors are fine with the old mechanics, but may start to crumble after 24 hours.
4) All objects made from organic material will either be reclaimed or rot.

Finally, make the eve spawn in the center of "civilization" rather than on the edges to encourage cities and societies to explore and expand, rather than relying on Eves to do that.

Advanced towns will have to setup frontier towns in order to trade for increasingly distant materials. This might make railroads viable and would also increase trading, and traveling merchants.

Also, make any Apocalypse have a limited area. EVE online is a great example of a game world with history because of its persistent nature.

Rifts make this game boring and pointless, other than showing what everyone already knows: when there is nothing to go around, violence and pop control is always the answer.

Hoping this game gets good, it had potential but this game already exists

Edit: also, father and marriages (outside the family) would be sensible, and increase trade and communication between towns (men would have to travel in order to find a wife)

Last edited by tool-geek (2019-07-29 23:57:58)

Morti · 2019-07-30 00:03:55

tool-geek wrote:

EVE online

Good game, I was DJ for EVE Radio back when Rinny Wee, DJ Dolby and Scott Manley were onboard. Back in the Days of Exodus, RMR and Rev.
Had my own mining and industrial corp too, churned out megathrons every other day and used the profit for radio contests.

Good times, but I'll probably never go back. I blew too much money and time on implants and learning skills to go back and find they're all pretty useless now.

jasonrohrer · 2019-07-30 00:33:27

Well, nothing NEEDs to get reclaimed by nature.

Before, it never was. Reclamation was added about a month ago.

But then people got further and further apart, as the center got stripped bare, and they could never find each other.

So, reclaiming the center, once it is abandoned, is a way to keep people close together. Otherwise, they can't find each other to interact.

In the original game, there was no eve spiral (all Eves at center) and no reclamation. That was 15 months ago, and after about 2 weeks of churn in the center, it really started to be boring in there. So we've already kinda tried your suggestion (albeit with some differences, since nothing was reclaimed in the center, and you're suggesting partial reclamation, but back then, a lot of stuff grew back, even Milkweed).

Now reclamation is turned off entirely. What you build last FOREVER, as long as you all stay alive.

In your suggestion, if the center gets stripped bare of inorganic stuff, how is a new Eve supposed to bootstrap there? Just primitive bootstrap? Like munch wild berries? Farming with skewers? No tools? Oh, there are rusted tools left over? But all the raw iron and stones are gone?

There's also the whole Eve Window thing now, which we never had before, where Eves only spawn at the start of a run. After that 2 hour window, all babies are born to someone (preferring mothers not lineage banned for them, if possible, before considering all mothers except donkey mothers).

So you could imagine the same experiment running without the Rift to limit it. Just no resource reclamation, and no Eves after 2 hours. See how long you can all last.

But people could keep spreading for unlimited resources, so there would be no negotiation or trade.

There never has been any negotiation or trade in the game. That requires scarcity. Infinite is the opposite of scarcity.

(Well, not infinite.... 36 quadrillion maple tress)

Maybe there WOULD be scarcity in the center, but who would stick around in the center? No, people would move out to follow the resources. Not only would they have infinite, eliminating the need for trade. They'd have no one to trade with, because they'd be so far apart from every other village.

This has been something that I've been working on over the course of a year, and it's not an easy problem to solve. The limited map is an experiment, and it may be tweak-able to perfection, or it may end up as a gateway to other ideas.

Bear in mind that in an infinite map, even farming is optional. there's infinite food out there for the picking.

Yes, people DO settle down and farm, always, but that's because there's no inventory in the game, so they need a place to put the stuff they're working on, and they can't move all of it to the next berry bush.

jasonrohrer · 2019-07-30 00:58:31

tool-geek, it might be interesting to consider how other mult-player games with persistent worlds handle some of these issues.

Rust is a great example, and a huge inspiration for OHOL. Last I played, it had the following features:

--A finite map, ensuring player interaction (you cross paths with other players sometimes)
--Endlessly re-spawning resources of all kinds. Trees, minerals, even man-made items like guns (found in crates) respawn.

So, yeah, those two things "work" in that the game is playable and never gets in a stuck state. But it's also really limited in terms of what emerges. Pretty much nothing interesting emerges. People grind the landscape to gather resources, and then they build huge bases. The more you grind, and the later you stay up at night when you have little competition, the bigger the base you can build. There is absolutely no trade (because there's no real scarcity---grinding can get you any resource you want), almost no stranger cooperation, and the only player interaction comes in the form of raiding. It LOOKS a bit like a town, where you build your base. But it's nothing like a town. In fact, you hardly ever even see your neighbors. Recently, when playing Rust, you see 200 people on your server, but where are they? You can play for hours without seeing a single soul.

This is exactly the "solo grind" kind of game that people absolutely love (it's addicting as hell to run around collecting resources and hoarding them in your private base), but that I specifically didn't want to make. I looked at Rust and thought, "Why is there no civilization in this game?" Then I made OHOL.

But Rust definitely works, and isn't broken. Oh, and there is no long-term arc. Most servers have regular wipes, weekly or whatever, which makes something of an artificial arc. There is decay of player structures over time.

I'm not sure how spawns work in Minecraft. I don't think stuff ever respawns, but I'm not sure. You can obviously strip-mine the surface, and I don't think trees regrow if you do that. But the world is infinite, so it really doesn't matter. There's always more of anything you need by walking farther or digging farther.

Again, no trade, no real stranger interaction or cooperation needed, lots of solo projects built in parallel (I'm talking about on public servers). Things LOOK like towns, but only because people are building nice-looking pretend towns. Not because people actually live there. I don't think there's decay of player structures, and regular map wipes aren't part of the culture.

But it works, and isn't broken.

Those are the only two games that I can think of right now to compare with OHOL along these lines.

So there are two solutions. Infinite map, no respawns, no wipes. Finite map, respawns, wipes.

Potjeh · 2019-07-30 01:06:51

To be pedantic, people do buy items in player shops, mostly hard to acquire weapons and explosives so they can research them. And yeah, you might not meet many people if you're collecting nodes in the middle of nowhere, but if you actually want to get anywhere you need to get components in radtowns, and you're virtually guaranteed to run into people there even at fairly low server pop.

jasonrohrer · 2019-07-30 01:10:36

Yes, I have seen some player shops. But not many people using them...

Needless to say, Rust is a far cry from the bustling village life that occurs constantly in OHOL.

Potjeh · 2019-07-30 01:49:26

There are some disgustingly large clans on servers like Rustafiied EU Long (like 20 people), but yeah, for the most part you don't really see villages. And the main reason for that is that the playerbase is rightfully paranoid due to immense power of backstabbing, so I'd be careful about making griefing too viable in OHOL if you want actual villages to be the meta.

Last edited by Potjeh (2019-07-30 01:49:48)

Morti · 2019-07-30 02:55:47

Why can't you just be happy with the system we have Jason?
Why do you want to force us to trade?
We're not thousands of tribes of thousands of people, were 20 people in a family, 3-5 families at a time, we were all picking up on each other's habits, finding our place, making things work, picking up each others slack.
It was this way in March last year and it was this way in December, when you had the most people.

I just don't understand it, why are you trying to make us unhappy?
I know you say you don't care if people are happy or not, but we were, we were content functioning as a family, in every family.

I keep wanting to give you the benefit of the doubt and think you want us to realize good things, but you keep bringing up things like war and trade, those just don't belong in families, and it's too late now to make us not think of ourselves as family.

No matter what people say about abandoning kids, dying on their moms or any of that, it is a fundamental aspect of the game that strangers already care for strangers, and, most of us aren't strangers anymore. We work as a family unit the way we have been doing it since before I even played.

There's not another steam, Jason. You don't get to release your game to the public again, not unless you find some way to get it on something like Xbox Live, Playstation Network or whatever Nintendo is doing, and even if you did, you have to realize you'd lose them again. Why are you advertising flowers, but packaging barbed wire?

It just isn't right.

I'm tellin you, it's too late.

We're happy with 100 tools shared by 20 people, we're happy with 100 crops, worked and shared by everyone.

You MUST know that.

Why not keep things civil, keep things amicable, and let us share this experience with each other, and with anyone else that comes along?

And please don't go giving a talk next year, or a decade from now, or when you are retired and being interviewed, saying something like "Oh, I knew that's what was going to happen. I taught people that lesson." and blab about how you were responsible for something. You aren't responsible for human nature. You're not responsible for the good things good people do anymore than you are for getting malevolent people to realize the errors of their ways, or, for getting kind and loving people to hurt each other. You just made another medium for people to be people. You can't undo a family, Jason.

Why are you trying to undo us?

You're the only person that is going to be here through the whole thing.
It's selfish to be like this.

You think people are going to check in on the synopsis of all this, in, who knows, five years? You think they're gonna go "Oh, so that's how it ended? I remember when I played that game for those 3 months." I remember when I played that game for those 9 months." "I remember when I played the game for those 3 years." "Too bad I didn't stick around to see that part." Is that whats going to happen? Everyone is going to regret not giving you the chance to finish the story? or should they just accept the chapter they were in it and be happy for that?

You know whats more interesting than conflict, Jason; the way family members forgive themselves and manage to go on being a family, where as any two strangers might have set out to ruining each others lives, or any two friends would have never spoken again. You know how families work, right? You'll always be your dad's son. You'll always be your daughter's dad.

Well we have that, and it has nothing to do with any of your door locks, it has nothing to do fences or the swords, we have it because we're playing the same game together, we're helping each other, straight out of the gate. And we've been doing it every hour, every day, since the beginning.

Right now, you;re like a dog owner, that teases it's dog after giving it a bone. You're reaching for that bone, and we're growling, and, it seems to us you're amused by that.

But we're not dogs. We're people. Don't treat us like dogs, and don't give us bones. Just let us be a family. A community, that is a family, no matter what our names are, no matter our skin tone, no matter the job we're doing, or not doing for that matter.

AND ANOTHER THING, stop saying what is interesting, like it's objective. Stop saying that. Stop repeating that interpersonal conflict is interesting, or that trade is interesting, NO THEY AREN'T, not to a family. Not to the kind of family we made ourselves by living with each other day after day. Is that how things work in your family? Does Lauren sell you dinner? You have to pay Mez to smile, or, do her homework? I mean, I don't know, maybe you feel the need to pay your kids money to be good family members.

I don't want to talk about your kids this way Jason, but I don't want you trying to encourage my kids to wheel and deal each other either, nor do I want you encouraging, or even enabling, the people playing my parents from one life to the next to go out and kill each other. Someone said you don't understand the game WE are playing, I'm starting to wonder if that really is the case. Maybe you really don't understand the game we're playing, with your game. Maybe you can't.

So the best thing I can do for you is to try and understand that we are a family. One family.

Try thinking of us as YOUR family, and yourself as a member of OUR family, the way you think of your mom and dad, or the way you think of your children.
Maybe then you won't be so inclined to encourage us to lock each other out of our rooms, or hit each other when one of us gets the last cookie.

Yeah, I think that's it. I think that is what you fail to see. Say what you want at some talk in the notpresent future, about having this all planned from the outset. Maybe get a low budget documentary to be made about the whole process. Just remember, you didn't play all those hours, we did. You didn't say ILY all those times, we did. You didn't refer to another player as Mom, or, Son, (or BB, though I don't personally use that term of endearment) all those times, we, did.

And in closing I'd like to say one more thing to everyone else that happens to read this; please do not take my words to Jason, or about Jason, out of context, and try to use them to spin your narrative about how he is, any, subjective opinion you might have about him. I am not trying to echo the sentiments of the people coming out saying they quit over this or that addition to the game. Nor am I writing this to echo what you, personally, mean to say to Jason when you make your comments to, or about, him. Make your points from where you stand in all of this. And who knows, maybe some of you only have a few dozen hours invested in this, and you don't feel the same way about the other people playing, that's fine, I just hope that for your sake, enough of us are still around, for long enough, that we can pass on this feeling to you.

Sorry this didn't have a lot to do witht he title of your post, tool-geek; just some things that had to be said.

Redram · 2019-07-30 03:09:28

jasonrohrer wrote:

I'm not sure how spawns work in Minecraft. I don't think stuff ever respawns, but I'm not sure. You can obviously strip-mine the surface, and I don't think trees regrow if you do that. But the world is infinite, so it really doesn't matter. There's always more of anything you need by walking farther or digging farther.
Again, no trade, no real stranger interaction or cooperation needed, lots of solo projects built in parallel (I'm talking about on public servers). Things LOOK like towns, but only because people are building nice-looking pretend towns. Not because people actually live there. I don't think there's decay of player structures, and regular map wipes aren't part of the culture.

It's kind of hilarious that this is the extent of your knowledge with regard to minecraft. These issues have been addressed, in a pretty successful fashion. But by players, not a 16+ year dev. So I know it's of no interest for you.

miskas · 2019-07-30 11:54:54

Feedback Regarding Trading

No1: Trading Has to be profitable for both sides to exist.
No2: Costs of trading need to be less than the cost of Production.
(The resources you give has to be in abundance to you but in scarcity for the other person and the resource you get has to be in scarcity to you but in abundance for the other person.
Thus Map resources distribution has to differ greatly for surpluses to be accumulated. One corner has greatly more Oil than the other but the other has greatly more Iron.)

No3: The goods you need has to be tradable.
Which goods of great value can be transported? ( a complete diesel engine is not)

No4: Trade has to be also cheaper in resources and time needed to be executed than Raiding/stealing.

-------------------

Costs of trade:
Time to trade has to be less than the time to produce
Time of communication (add numbers! not words. Also add attention seek scream or doorbells, What if I am outside of your fence ready with goods but you never see me. http://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=7348 )
Time of transportation
Resources need it to make the Transportation(cart) and transaction
Time to Organise (chose which goods can be traded, who will do it, where will do it, with whom, for what)

That's my feedback, I have simple suggestions to make trading more luring in the game If you want them just say it.

One Hour One Life Forums

#1 2019-07-29 23:49:21

Getting rid of the rift, but maintaining resource depletion

#2 2019-07-30 00:03:55

Re: Getting rid of the rift, but maintaining resource depletion

#3 2019-07-30 00:33:27

Re: Getting rid of the rift, but maintaining resource depletion

#4 2019-07-30 00:58:31

Re: Getting rid of the rift, but maintaining resource depletion

#5 2019-07-30 01:06:51

Re: Getting rid of the rift, but maintaining resource depletion

#6 2019-07-30 01:10:36

Re: Getting rid of the rift, but maintaining resource depletion

#7 2019-07-30 01:49:26

Re: Getting rid of the rift, but maintaining resource depletion

#8 2019-07-30 02:55:47

Re: Getting rid of the rift, but maintaining resource depletion

#9 2019-07-30 03:09:28

Re: Getting rid of the rift, but maintaining resource depletion

#10 2019-07-30 11:54:54

Re: Getting rid of the rift, but maintaining resource depletion

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