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#1 Re: Main Forum » Not very accessible for new players » 2019-11-29 00:24:34

I think I have to stop playing this game. I like the idea of this game, but the way how you have to play it is not very intuitive. You cannot play it with "common sense" and it sadly feels like that I am forced to waste time when trying to do some very basic tasks.

It doesn't mean that I couldn't learn how you play it if I just made repetition very many times, but the problem is that you are forced to do simple things in a way that is made to be as complex and unforgiving as possible. For example that iron making queue. I watched a video where someone was speedrunning the tutorial. It took him about 8 minutes to make all the tools needed. If 1 minute is one year, why did he had to use 8 years of constant working to make 1 hammer, 1 shovel, and 1 ax? I bet you could in real life make the same in 2 years if you were in some area that has no winter and you had food and clothes and some sort of a home and there was, for example, iron bacteria in water so that you could collect iron just like that. Also, where are bronze axes and copper swords etc? Those were very common in history and even easier to make than iron tools.

The people who are not speedrunners would have to use at least 20 years for that same thing. So not very efficient and the time scale cannot be correct. Also, if you do forging, you understand what you are doing in real life, but here you don't since there is all kind of little special things that are not explained anywhere and the GUI is not helping you much to do your tasks. In real life you just put coal into your kiln, but here you don't, because you need to have first your bellows next to the kiln to make it work. Even if you were an expert smith irl, you couldn't do the thing any faster in this game. That I think is the problem of GUI.

I kind of understand that everything can be multiplied. So for example, if you in-game collect 1 berry, it can be understood that in fact, you collected 1000 berries and so on. But yet still it's a very unintuitive way of playing a game.

If we had, let's say 100 randomly selected people from anywhere around the earth. No matter their profession. They could be anything. Rocket engineers, doctors, normal folks... etc. And they would be put into a jungle without clothes. What do you think would happen? I think they would start a stone age. In fact, I am quite much sure, that the stone age has happened multiple times in the history of humans. Some folks just are forced for some reason to leave and then they have to start from scratch.

It depends on things what will they become, but I also think that with determined and understanding people, it would take only a few generations after they had quite nice homes and working government, their own laws, domestic animals, etc. If the people were not so smart, or not willing to progress or they were too aggressive or their neighbors were aggressive, or they had diseases or something, then they would just stay in the stone age. To the modern technology, it would take hundreds of years from them.

#2 Re: Main Forum » Story of Eve's escape » 2019-11-28 00:45:00

Coconut Fruit wrote:

Once you are out you can go south or north and if lucky you can meet another person doing smith challenge. Just make a bow and kill her big_smile
Killing in tutorial lmao.

That would be very cruel thing to do. yikes

In fact, I was thinking that if I got out, I would go to the north and free someone else. tongue

That would give her very much more additional time out from the prison and she would be able to go north also and free someone else who would have even more additional free time. I don't know what would they do with that time, but anyways.

#3 Main Forum » Story of Eve's escape » 2019-11-27 20:07:15

Harmi
Replies: 10

Eve was born in a small area surrounded by adobe walls. It was kind of a prison, but not the worst one since there was plentiful of all the possible resources, including all types of food, clay, branches, trees etc. The builder of her prison was even thoughtful to make a room filled with pet snakes for Eve to enjoy. Basically she had almost everything, except freedom. One tree was blocking her way out of the adobe prison.

So Eve decided that she should cut the blocking tree out from her way to be free. To do so, she would need to make an iron ax and shovel because everyone knows that it's impossible to jump over stumps.

It was not a simple task to start doing since it has many different steps from start to finish. At astart she would need to make a campfire, that is a complex technological thing and takes years of her life to set up. However, after a few years, she finally made the campfire and she would start working with the iron. And oh dear how much she was working with it. To make the tools to escape, she would first need to make tools to make tools. She realized that she cannot forge with stone the iron to become anything else than a hammer. So that was her first goal. To make a real iron hammer.

While doing all that, she realized that her life was build up to be a memory puzzle. She was not only prisoned into the adobe prison but also into the abstract memory maze where she, instead of walking, would need to remember everything correctly in order to be able to follow the path of ancients. Otherwise, she wouldn't be able to progress. If she made any mistakes, the memory puzzle would punish her. She, for example, lost the campfire a few times and always to make it back, it would take some precious years of her short life to make it come back.

The forging hammer was only a tool to make other tools but very important one. When she removed the hot iron from the adobe kiln, or whatever and hit it with the rock, it instantly became a smithing hammer head. It was so hot, that it took several months to cool down and become an item that is safe to handle. And only after that, she would be able to take it and install it to a wooden handle to be able to use it as a tool to make the rest of the tools needed.

Now she would leave the adobe prison. She was watching her finished product, untouched brand new smithing hammer head, the key of her freedom, and then it was her time to leave the prison at the age of 60 years.

#4 Re: Main Forum » Well wine is never getting made » 2019-11-27 12:03:42

jasonrohrer wrote:

Not sure what you guys want here....

I've made wine from scratch in real life, and I made it just like it's made in the game, using a clay crock and glass bottles.  I didn't use a funnel, because I had a pyrex measuring cup with a spout that I used to fill the bottles.  More advanced than a glass funnel.

People have been asking for glass blowing and bottles forever.

The bottles will be used for other stuff besides wine in the future, like storing multiple bowls of salt, vinegar, palm oil, etc.

If you've been playing this game for a while, I hope you've come to notice and appreciate the somewhat realistic "maker" aesthetic in this game, where making something in-game feels somewhat akin to making something in real life.  This is unlike other crafting games where you take X wood and Y stone to make an axe.  In this game, you actually build the axe from scratch, step by step.

So I'm not sure how you were expecting to grow grapes and make bottles of wine in such a context.  Obviously, it was going to take dozens of new steps.

Same for pumpkin pie.  Were you expecting me to phone it in and just have PUMPKIN + PIE CRUST?

Surely you're joking, Mr. Tipy.  You have to cook the custard first, and it's going to require sugar.

I think the problem in the current crafting system is that you always have only 1 option to do something when in real life you have multiple. For example, irl you can put the wine into the glass bottle, but glass bottles as an invention is quite new. The wine was not just some sort of "special feast drink", it was being consumed basically daily almost everywhere, in the days when the glass was rare. As far I've understood, the wine was not that kind of wine we nowadays have and call wine. The "good wine" was basically almost like grape juice, not very dense of alcohol. Then they had fermented "old wine", that was probably cheaper cause its more common and typically more for the drunkards. For example in Rome, the soldiers had their daily dose of wine from their government, which was typically cheap watered-down wine. Another old type of alcoholic drink was rum. Rum was being used in ships, cause it lasts for very long without going bad in wooden barrels. It could also be watered down.

Typically wine was being put into a wineskin and taken from barrels. Or something like that. Wine is one of the oldest known inventions. Together with for example cheese. Both are things that you don't need to invent very much. They just "happen" if you accidentally do certain things. (for example cheese will happen if you slaughter a calf and see what's in its stomach. (rennet)
You should be able to use normal wires and strings and if you for some reason want to be very special, you should also be able to use copper or, for the sake of memes, gold wires, I guess. There is nothing in wine that forces you to use copper in the making of process.

Also, I've also made several campfires from naturally dried dead wood from the forest, that I found just lying on the ground and no stone hatched or even ax was anywhere near. Only knife. (you can do it even without a knife) So I collected the wood, made kindling from the wood and set it on fire. Of course with modern fire-making tools, but there is nothing in the process that could prevent cave men also to be burning similar wood, made without a hatchet. You don't even need the fire drill.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9n9rqb-lvY& He is also in video firing a pot without using tongs. You can do the fire with just a stick and your hands. In real life, we can burn anything wooden. Furniture being one example. We can even burn wet wood if the fire already is going.

I know it adds little additional work for you if you have to draw new additional sprites to everything if different items are used. But I guess you could also do it in a way that you use the same sprites for the "key inventions" even when the item was crafted using 2 different tools. I don't see any reason to make the game overly complex to be played.

edit: And also, I like your game very much. I for sure think you've made something special in a good way. However, there always even in good things has some things that could be rounded.

#5 Re: Main Forum » Not very accessible for new players » 2019-11-27 01:37:19

Tbh, learning in-game is not very efficient as far as I know. People are just running around and moving items and you have no deep understanding of what for they are doing what they are doing. Also, you probably didn't see them do all the steps and where they got some items, etc. They also have their own goals and only some minutes to achieve them before they has to leave the game. It's better to watch some youtube tutorial videos such as this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yofDoHL28YI& If you wanna learn faster.
I think I've learned from that video at least same amount of knowledge I've learned from playing the game so far. Maybe more.

#6 Re: Main Forum » Not very accessible for new players » 2019-11-25 18:28:01

Kaveh wrote:
Harmi wrote:
Kaveh wrote:

Omg imagine being a veteran player and not being able to do anything but listen to your mom rehash farming to you. You already have to wait 3 minutes before you get to play now (5% of your playtime in a full life), being unable to do anything after or maybe only if you mom tells you so would be horrendous. There are much much more efficient ways to use that time, both for the kid AND the mother.

And that doesn't even take into account that a baby could know much more than its mother. I've taught my mothers many times.

No, that was not the game mechanical thing I was trying to explain. I was trying to show a way that the game would help you to save your time from doing things that seem to not make sense by making crafting mechanic, simpler to get, and then lead you to use that same time to interact with other players and make deeper relations with them.

It doesn't mean that building an efficiently working town would take any longer than now. The new system, however, would automatically lead you to do things together with other players. That would be the result of more explanating GUI.

And the "teaching" I am speaking about, necessarily doesn't mean that you would need to in chat explain how to use a hammer. The kid would "learn" it by for example these 2 steps

1. Seeing someone to use hammer correctly.
2. That person giving the hammer to the kid. 
- Now the kid would be now fully aware of how to use it.
- Maybe you could even make a "classroom" and teach many kids simultaneously.
- In the best possible scenario, in an organized town, It would lead some player to learn all the possible skills available and then teach them to all of the new babies together.

So, if you teach your kids in that way, the town would flourish even if some players were new. But if you didn't teach -or your kids didn't wanna learn, the town would slowly start going down.

Now, with the current mechanism, the town will flourish if there are senior players and it will go down if someone bought the game from steam and joins your town. I think it's not a good way because of those reasons.

Even the grandmas last few minutes would be important if she could stay home and teach new kids before dying. She could teach some new babies to do some old skill and know that the baby knows it and then grandma would die out by knowing that there in the town still is someone who knows how to use some specific tool.

So you basically want to make it so someone can't get a tool before they see someone else use that tool?

Although it is an idea, I don't think it'll work... I see too many issues with it
First of all:
What happens to the first person in the chain? How does someone learn to bake or smith when nobody has done it before them? What if you find an old abandoned town with a lot of tech your town didnt have, but you're unable to use it cuz you never learned (and anyone who couldve taught you is dead)? Or do you want to make it so only one person in your family can get the tool slot without learning from someone else, but everyone else will have to ask them? What if it's a griefer and they just pick up every tool then leave town to live somewhere else but making sure that no one in the family will be able to do anything? Or what if your family has split up into multiple villages, would you have to go find the other village to even be able to use the tool?

Next to those issues, I see a problem with even finding someone to teach you in the first place. What if you want to learn to bake, but nobody is in the bakery to teach you how to use the oven? Do you have to ask everyone to figure out who can show you to do it, and then they have to stop what they're doing just to help you? If you'd go with teachers: you'd need a constant supply of multiple teachers at the same time cuz nobody can learn all of the tools (not enough tool slots).
Also: this still forces me to spend time doing basically 'nothing' but looking/listening cuz I can't do anything myself. I'd much much rather just be able to leave and do what I want to do, cuz time is super valuable in this game.

Edit: Wanted to add that a town will never flourish without senior players. Yes, new players can bake and farm etc, but they won't be able to make a diesel engine for quite a while- that's super advanced tech you won't just pick up by looking at it. You can look it up on onetech, but if you haven't learned a lot of other things before you won't really know how to apply that knowledge (fast). Even getting a newcomen well is super hard now you need collaboration with other people, for which you need to know how to explore & communicate. Stuff like that isn't easy. If a town would exist of only newer players I think it'd run out of water fast and then die out.

Yes, just like in real life, if you don't have a teacher, it's much slower to learn a skill.

So it wouldn't remove your ability to learn the skill, but it would reduce your speed of learning. So by your own as a player who plays Eve, you would maybe learn only a few skills if you learn your whole life, but if you had a teacher, you would learn from the teacher many skills in a very short time.

So how would you play this?

- You will spawn as Eve and you right away start learning some basic survival skills, let's say, for example, 3 different skills.
- You will have a kid and you will teach the skills to your kid right away and the kid will learn, let's say 3 additional skills and teach them to you (Eve).
- Now you both would have 6 skills.
- Then Eve has another kid and the kid will be taught all of those 6 skills and then he would learn additional 3 skills and teach them to Eve and his sister.
- Now everybody would have 9 skills.
- Then Eve dies and her first daughter already has a kid who will learn from the other people.
- If some knowledge will be lost because of bad town management, people will have to learn it back in a hard way.

Where do I think this would lead naturally?

- In a town, they would need to have someone who knows what's happening and they would be leading and organizing it to a better future.
- Everybody would have some profession.

To make it work, there however would need to be some features to allow players to interact with the game. You should, for example, be able to see the skills other people have and what you have.

#7 Re: Main Forum » Not very accessible for new players » 2019-11-25 13:09:58

Kaveh wrote:

Omg imagine being a veteran player and not being able to do anything but listen to your mom rehash farming to you. You already have to wait 3 minutes before you get to play now (5% of your playtime in a full life), being unable to do anything after or maybe only if you mom tells you so would be horrendous. There are much much more efficient ways to use that time, both for the kid AND the mother.

And that doesn't even take into account that a baby could know much more than its mother. I've taught my mothers many times.

No, that was not the game mechanical thing I was trying to explain. I was trying to show a way that the game would help you to save your time from doing things that seem to not make sense by making crafting mechanic, simpler to get, and then lead you to use that same time to interact with other players and make deeper relations with them.

It doesn't mean that building an efficiently working town would take any longer than now. The new system, however, would automatically lead you to do things together with other players. That would be the result of more explanating GUI.

And the "teaching" I am speaking about, necessarily doesn't mean that you would need to in chat explain how to use a hammer. The kid would "learn" it by for example these 2 steps

1. Seeing someone to use hammer correctly.
2. That person giving the hammer to the kid. 
- Now the kid would be now fully aware of how to use it.
- Maybe you could even make a "classroom" and teach many kids simultaneously.
- In the best possible scenario, in an organized town, It would lead some player to learn all the possible skills available and then teach them to all of the new babies together.

So, if you teach your kids in that way, the town would flourish even if some players were new. But if you didn't teach -or your kids didn't wanna learn, the town would slowly start going down.

Now, with the current mechanism, the town will flourish if there are senior players and it will go down if someone bought the game from steam and joins your town. I think it's not a good way because of those reasons.

Even the grandmas last few minutes would be important if she could stay home and teach new kids before dying. She could teach some new babies to do some old skill and know that the baby knows it and then grandma would die out by knowing that there in the town still is someone who knows how to use some specific tool.

#8 Re: Main Forum » Not very accessible for new players » 2019-11-25 02:13:36

Why would you anyways move the spark somewhere? Shouldn't you have the tinder already there when you are using the stick to make it smoking from the friction between wood and stick? Then you move the smoking tinder to your campfire to make fire by blowing it.

You're maybe right that the learning queue would start being annoying if you have to repeat it every time you start the game. But I still think that some game mechanical principle would need to be invented to make the game understandable for new users.

#9 Re: Main Forum » Not very accessible for new players » 2019-11-25 01:59:25

Ah, now I understand the background for this better, thanks for clarifying. smile

Yes, I made the tutorial through and I think I also made a fire in there, but it still doesn't make sense and I am still struggling to do it since it's for me hard to remember if the steps don't make sense for me. I am literally thinking of how I would make fire if I was in a forest. And collecting leaves wouldn't be step 1. In fact, it wouldn't be a step at all.

#10 Re: Main Forum » Not very accessible for new players » 2019-11-25 01:34:57

Tbh, as a new player, I've never understood why people seem to think that to survive in this game is hard. I've found it relatively easy to stay alive to that 60 years whenever I want to. You always find something from nature or the village to eat. So you can just literally run naked around and collect food and live "happily".  Also, wild animals can be avoided easily by just standing on some items. So I learned I think in my second or 3th session, everything I need to know to survive 60 minutes in-game and be that naked barbarian in your village who is collecting stones or something similar dumb.

The problem for me is the "other things". In one world, progressing, and the "yum queue" or what you call it? So if I really wanna do something for the village or even get clothes, it's incredibly hard to figure out some very basic things. The steps needed to achieve basic things seem to make no sense. That's why I made yesterday that post where I am asking if the crafting recipes with at least icons and inventory could be improved. (Inventory, I believe would be easy to do, since inventory literally works in a similar way as if you had a 9 sprites personal land area "hidden" with you where you place your items. Part of it would be grayed if you didn't have a basket and backpack.)

People don't seem to love so much on teaching new players on stupid things such as "to make fire you need to find leaves" and then being forced to teach the tree type whose leaves only work with this etc. After reading these posts, I've become slightly worried if I could even ask them. (Why would you need the leaf to make fire anyways? Never needed that irl) But if that's what the game wants us to do, then I think the game should show it somehow. I think there are soon more new players than teachers when this game gets its next steam sale.

The teaching that has to be done to every player from parents could be done with some other cleverly designed game mechanic. The game could, for example, limit the abilities of kids so that the parent has to teach every kid. Not that the player doesn't understand how to play the game, but the game character doesn't. I think this wouldn't break the emotional chain in the game. In fact, it would make you love your mom probably even more if you every time had to learn everything from her and it was a game mechanic.

Let's say, if you need to learn to use an ax, the ax, for example, has to be given by some adult who knows how to use an ax. Maybe that adult would also need to show for the kid how to use it on something first. If no one like that is anywhere, you could learn it by yourself, but much more slowly. Or something similar. So in that way, you would know that you learned to use an ax or ride a horse because your mom or uncle taught it to you and your mom learned it from your grandma and she from someone else and Eve learned something very basic painfully slowly, etc.

That would make it interesting because in some future generations there wouldn't be any reason to teach your kids to for example to use that ax. So some "old" knowledge would become lost and then after the catastrophe, it would need to be reinvented, etc.

#11 Re: Main Forum » How to fix OHOL? » 2019-11-23 21:53:32

I understand and even like the minimum UI philosophy. Simplicity is beautiful. But on the other hand, it cannot be expected that all the players learn some command prompt -kind of things to do some tasks.

#12 Main Forum » How to fix OHOL? » 2019-11-23 15:13:32

Harmi
Replies: 14

Hello, let me introduce myself first:
I am a noob, I bought the game yesterday. It doesn't mean that I wouldn't have good ideas and I will share them with you now.

This is a great game, but it has some major core problems that all the players struggle with. The new players and old players, but especially new players.

I've been lurking little on this forum and I've seen that people, for example, wanna born back to some specific family tree, because there is a positive "problem" of steam rushing. However, allowing players to spawn where ever they want to is not a right solution imho. It would only generate few elite families. (those will eventually be generated anyways, but not by that way. This is supposed to be a life simulator anyways.)

Many new players just join the game and destroy entire villages, because they don't know what they should be doing. They don't do it because they didn't want to help. I think most of the players wants to help, but they just don't know what can they do or where to find items they need to help. I am one of those new players. However, I still understand the core mechanic of this game and what I should logically be doing (gather food and technology and let the bloodline continue).

The problem of not achieving those is in these 3 problems in OHOL core mechanics, which I introduce you next.


- Inventory management

The problem of not having proper inventory management is one of the main reasons why people die. It is a huge problem. For example, if you have a backpack and you don't have access to the items in it, you might die because of that. No one in real life dies because of that. If there is some sort of a box on the ground and you have no access to the items in it, it's also a huge problem. Today the "best" solution for this is that you have a huge land area only filled with single random items. How on earth that makes sense?
So if you're for example looking for a needle, you might need to walk more than 20 sprites to the other side of the town to find it lying on the ground. You could also invent a perfect management system for the items, but new players can destroy it accidentally in minutes when they don't know where to put the items. Life simulator shouldn't work that way.

Instead you should be able to create inventories. Chest, backpacks, boxes, and you should be able to look inside of the inventory without taking items from it. Also, you should be able to write signs to introduce players what's inside of some inventory.


- Crafting

The crafting is the next big problem, that in fact goes together with the GUI problems. The game is trying to help you to craft new items by adding recipes, but the problem is that it still is very unintuitive. You should have a GUI for crafting so that you don't for example accidentally "craft" new items by just placing them together without knowing what on earth you're doing. I leave it to developers what the GUI for that could be. Maybe something little similar as it is in Minecraft since people already know it?

- GUI

This is for the non-English speakers the biggest problem that goes to crafting. I, for example, am from Finland (päivää päivää), I know English quite well but this game introduced me to many new words which I have never heard of. So that's why especially for the crafting items you should have icons. Let's say your recipe is to craft carrots and potatoes together to create "Something" (Don't ask why would one mix those, it's just an example), but you don't have any idea what "potato" is. You know it in your native language but in English, you have no idea. For example, in Finnish, it's "peruna". (Try to imagine a situation where you have to find carrots and "peruna" to progress in the game.

So, someone asks you to do "something" and you start doing it. You found or created a bowl, you found carrots and then you see the next step in your recipe and you have no idea what "peruna" is. So you have to alt-tab away from the game to find it from the dictionary to continue the progress. Very unintuitive. 

All that struggle with non-English speakers could be fixed by just adding an icon to every item in the recipes.

You say that telling with icons what "peruna" is, is cheating, but remember that in this game 1 minute is 1 year. If your mom told you to find "perunas", she would also explain what "peruna" is. This game doesn't allow us to have this deep conversations with other players.

All game features should be achievable from the GUI. For example, naming your newborn should be allowed to be done also from, let's say drop menu that you get from right-clicking your baby. etc.

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