a multiplayer game of parenting and civilization building
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The sentence looks like it was cherry-picked. I'd be interested to see the actual context surrounding it.
By describing sytemic racism you proved it is not cherry-picked.
I've googled that systemic racism and came to Wikipedia entry about Institutional racism. This is the great entry, as it shows systemic racism is overused. Due to historic events black immigrants are poorer and more prone to be criminal, and it is described as racism But even them, throwing someones CV to thrash because of name origin seems very exotic to me. Well, there are people collecting stamps, so everything is possible, even institutional racism in moder societies.
The author is a black woman named Ijeoma Oluo who was born in Texas, so I'm guessing she has had some personal experience with both varieties of racism in her life.
Never trust anyone because of his personal experience or origin. Especially if that person utils compassionation of others. If the statement needs that kind of authority, it is worthless. Only statements which can defend itself even if spoken by anonymous Internet troll are worth considering. Remember:
1. Alicia Esteve Head who gain fame by faking being September 11 survivor.
2. Rachel Dolezal who faked being African American to gain the chair of the Office of the Police Ombudsman Commission in Spokane.
3. Great Lakes refugee crisis. After Rwanda genocide people around the world were aiding refugee camps in Zair. But refugees were mostly Hutu who started genocide, lost civil war and escaped from Rwanda. They were using refugee camps and international aid to raid Rwanda for almost 2 years.
4. Simon Mol, Cameroon-origin politcal refugee who made career in Poland as writer, journalist and anti-racist activist. Respected and rewarded multiple times was using his fame to spread AIDS across local women. He was performing very brutal sex to increase infection probability and accusing of racism if asked to use a condom.
As a white person in a white society, you don't typically face systemic racism
Such a thing was common in Europe in past. Maybe you heard about Holocaust? Or about origin of Ludwig Zamehof? Prussian deportations? Armenian Genocide? Did you watch a movie Evil from 2003 with Sweden racism against certain whites in the background?
Well, forget Europe. 100 years ago Slavs, Italians, Hungarians and Greeks were not considered white in USA, therefore they were facing the institutional racism for example in real estate market.
Your president is a white guy. Your senator is a white guy. Your governor is a white guy .. and so on, all the way down to your boss who is probably also a white guy.
All my co-workers, prisoners and garbage collectors are white aswell.
I've never saw "nigga" in OHOL during my gameplays. Maybe because all Americans were sleeping in that moment, so I was playing with Europeans And I've never saw anyone to care about skin tone ingame. Maybe you see racial specialization as the way to promote diversity, but from Eastern-European perspective we see it as a solution to non-existing problem.
Just to point out : race is not culture
Race not, racism can be Seriously, check definition.
There is no such thing as race.
Of course there are races . Those are groups described by subjective criteria. Most visible is skin color, but you can use other classifications utilizing eye color, lactose tolerance or even blood type
I totally agree with DestinyCall here.
FYI This is a pretty good book about race, So You Want to Talk About Race by Ijeoma Oluo: https://www.amazon.com/You-Want-Talk-Ab … 220&sr=8-2
I've decided to read about it and there is a sentence from it
If you are white in a white supremacist society, you are racist. If you are male in a patriarchy, you are sexist. If you are able-bodied, you are ableist. If you are anything above poverty in a capitalist society, you are classist.
So I admit how terrible monster I am and I fully agree with that video. I also want to admit, making prejudices about white people is totally OK when you are a person of color
Did you notice this is a topic about racism in different cultures and no one here really discriminated anyone besides some jokes? If you go to such an topic, expect experiences to be told from different countries. My brother was English proficient enough to understand most dialogues in movies he watched and considered "nigga" to be equivalent of "buddy" or "dude". I found it amusing and decided to share. Do not expect people to undestand US culture code just because they use English.
But I find your butthurt even more amusing If you don't like topics about how racism is being seen in different cultures and countries, do not read it. But describing such phenomenons is not a crime.
Consider there are other cultures with different word meanings. And also countries with different laws. I suggest you to chill.
So yeah, if people are offended by the word "nigga' it's a good coping strategy to just own the word and loses its derogatory meaning plus it rhymes with anything
My brother had an English exam and he had to describe a picture with two black-toned guys sitting in from of the destroyed shotgun house, clearly after one of American tornadoes. He started "in the picture I can see two niggas". He was very surprised by teachers reaction (one was laughing, one was angry). When I explained him how offensive it is, he replied: "The fuck! They are constantly using it in movies and no one gets offended!"
Speaking about words that hurt
Consider the video
and the picture
The words may say how nasty is the speaker, but why any decent person would care about nasties?
Also: Slav is offensive? I am the fucking Slav! It is not like Gypsy or Kebab, which is clearly an offensive attempt.
The game has been out now for more than 2 years.
For example, which do you want:
1. Long-lived lineages that don't die out due to forces beyond their control, and permanent, every-growing, player-created buildings and transportation networks?
2. Lots of Eve camps and a large variety of other towns at different levels of tech?
I like sometimes to read the same old problems the game and developer have, despite solutions being provided a long time ago...
I prefer 2 because all I'm looking for in this game is survival. People like survival games so maybe I'm in the majority... or maybe not. An in-game pool could tell more.
You prefer Eve camps today, but after 20 runs maybe you will want to teach newbies in advanced town? Consider, Jason will balance the game as you currently wish. Will newbies be able to learn and feel important in an early village, which is the hardest part of the game? I used to enjoy teaching and it was more viable in advanced cities. I can always jump back to the backery for the pie and I have time for explanations and discussion without constant fear of starving.
I think there's probably a decent number of people who like completely different things
[...]
I do not like being restricted by make skin tone or my tool slots, so I'm cut off from exploring certain aspects of the game or delving deeper into the tech tree.
[...]
I think this game is at its best when there is a lot of variety. The option to live in a bell-town or a little village. The ability to play as an Eve or as the mayor of a town.
[...]
I don't know how to balance it properly. i don't know if it is even POSSIBLE to find a perfect balance.
DesitnyCall, you are almost there!. You see the problem: we need variety. The solution is just one step ahead!
Eve camps *out in the wild* could happen by choice or by players not selecting to reincarnate to likely/necessarily get put there. The idea of an Eve button is likely preferable, because then players who want to login in and in end up in a seemingly randomly generated spot could do so.
And players choosing their birth spot is also within the scope of the game, as again, the scope of the game has many contradictions of individual players being their own ancestors.
And we have a winner with a solution!
People want variety and it is the easiest part to implement. Consider, how different will be your gameplay experience, if you have below spawn options:
1. gender
2. generation (let player be able to choose [min, max]. [1,1] would be always Eve, [2,5] will indicate early settlement, [15,_] is almost for sure an advanced town
3. skin tone
4. reborn to one of previous families (choose from list of family names you lived previously)
5. Family proficiency. You do not have to roll babies suicide to try be a blacksmith
It is an easy solution for a variety. Much less suicide babies.
It is obvious Jason made multiple compromises. This is why I think spawn options should not be for free. Easy implementation: microtransactions.
But much better is something I proposed a long time ago: life tokens (or karma), Playing according to Jason's will will grant you currency you can spent on your personal preferences. Let reward players for
1. Living to threshold ages. Like, one for passing 15 years, than 30 and dying of old age
2. Being blessed by others. It is a clear indication you are bringing enjoyment to other players. It is also a way to encourage experienced players and technlogoy rushers for more social interaction
3. Surviving of next 5 generations each
4. Living a live without any options choosen, allowing for Jasons algorithm to decide about everything
Another fun thing would be, if players would be able to buy bonuses!
1. Skipping donkey town punishment
2. Aureola. An expensive thing, which will indicate very experienced player. This way some players will have a big charisma, they may be natural leaders. I would definitely follow aureola owner!
3. Hunger bonuses (extra pips, or pips declining slower)
4. Extra life, like starting to loosing pips due to age 10 minutes later.
One more advantage of that system: If Jason decides there are too much Eves around, he can just increase the price in life tokens. If he considers players cooperation as more important, he can increase the reward! No more code grinding for brilliant algorithms solving no problems.
But I know where it is going. Jason will still force players to play one way and in-game min-maxing of advanced players will shape others gameplay, reducing variety. If you consider it valid I propose a flood. Propose life tokens every time, you will talk about low variety, too much/few of Eves/early settelements/cities, suicide babies, no ingame interaction, spawn algorithms. Or just put link to this post as I did in my signature.
LOL you digged that topic. But it's fine you remember what players want and need
I like a sentence "willing searches for possibilities. Not wiling excuses".
I was not talking about trees, but branches. I live near cultivated city park and my dog is always able to find some sticks to fetch. Also, I was able to find free kindling every time I was making a camping in forest. Just like squaws in native tribes For me a below flow seems natural
Tree
Tree with branch
Tree with fallen branch
Tree with kindling
Tree (kindling rotted).
This flow would slow down city development why making Eve runs and early settlement easier due to kindling early access
If you balance area to sustain only 2 people, all the other will be balanced about amount of resources, not their respawn. Depletion of resources would hurt even more This way you do not need to worry about regen balance, as only nearly extinct settlements may be able to utilize regen for survival.
Wandering may be not interesting for designer, but it doesn't matter. The amusement of players matters. Making a hunter-gatherer style a valid gameplay adds variety, choices and amusement. Regen balanced for 2 people around area will not affect cities with 5 or more permanent citizens. Notice, that small regen will slightly decrease depletion of resources, giving people more time to notice and react for change in cooperation. But it will also give them harder choices and area to make mistakes and learn.
Iron respawn is utilized in other games by meteors or earthquakes, but don't think about it. Notice, that iron despawn as in OHOL is not immersive either. When IRL we will run out of ore, we will go mine garbage dump. Or filter oceanic water, crash meteors from beyond Mars or reach for Earth core. For OHOL I believe it should not be renewable, just like you. I expect hunter-gatherers to not need iron, why outpost builders are supposed to bring their own tools. But still, I believe OHOL needs a mine update requiring to build an outpost because of complexity of tasks.
During choice we are computers. We analyze problem and choose solution, no time for cry. We can be emphatic when there is nothing we can help
It's something to be excepted. The last updates are about to make game harder. It pleases veterans, but discourages newbies.
Just making game back easier would not solve the problem, as veterans would leave. The solution is to strengthen the parenting side of the game. But how to encourage veterans to babysit and teach newbies, when they are only taking care about survival?
1. Give bonuses basing on survival rate!
The new skill update will provide the first such a mechanism. Earned genetic score will increase number of available skills. But maybe allow to spend earned genetic score to talk as toddler? Next 20 minutes of life? What if blessings would also increase genetic score, when curses would decrease it?
2. Make parenting easier.
Simultaneus carrying both a toddker and basket is a classic, required change. Only basket/bowls and toddler would be allowed to be carried simultaneously. =It is to honor the classis graph
Make held babies grew faster/speak earlier. Benefits of being cared so much!
Give planned parenthood. This allows players to keep babies only when ready. If fathers included, more caretakers would be more common. Male players would help much their own kin, than common babies.
It's hilarious how Jason is not keeping his own promises regarding game design. It gives me hope, as he basically has implemented most of my suggestions, only twisting the original mechanics and balance :) It happened with multistep cooking, with medicine, with more violence options (even if swords are twisted so much my proposition could not work). Now it happened with phantoms, invisible objects utilizing to interactions between players.
Jason, drying out springs are the equivalent of red wires from Minecraft, something you promised you will never implement :)
Hereby, another suggestion for water management. Do not prohibit building wells (in free place, dry pond, spring, doesn't matter). Make water a global resource. When well timer runs out, it is requesting the next unity of water. It is granted by probability engine basing on remaining not full wells in the world. It can be different timer basing on technological advancement.
Chance to get water = 1/number of not full wells
If timer were quite high, like 2-20 seconds, the first few wells would provide gigantic amounts of water. But every next well would downgrade all other existing wells. Abandoned wells would fill up eventually and not affect others.
Advantages over current system:
1. It still allows for Eve camps or outposts, as new digged shallow and deep well will start full of water.
2. Water becomes a resource villages may compete for. A raid to destroy/downgrade neighbouring well makes sense.
3. There would exists some wells surrounded by abandoned settlement, so exploring for them may be lifesaver.
System is easy and global. Tweaking timers would be the only thing necessary to tweak difficulty, making it more balanced with each arc.
The current approach is to force people to climb up in technology tree to achieve self sustain city. Resources at virgin area are plentiful, but they must be carefully spent on investing into self sustain based on water pumps and sheeps. That's because they have low regen rate (branches regen and rabbit spawn about 1 hour).
Consider If we turn it upside down, which is decrease the general amount of available resources (rarer trees, less berries, less dense rabbit holes, decrease global pip bonus to food) but increase the regen rate. Consequences
1. Eveing and exploring would be much easier. There would always bee a regenerated food around. So newbies would be better than now outside of camp.
2. The amount of nearby food would be low. So a mother and 2 kids may for example be self sustain using gathering only on constant 20x20 area. But any bigger number of players would quickly deplete area of resources.
3. It would slow down city progress, as resources would be lower. City dwellers would need to explore bigger areas to bring the enormous amount of resources to progress the city.
This still matches everything runs out philosophy. If players want to be self sustain at low level, they would have to keep their population low (like homo sapiens for 400 000 years). The cities would be harder. Yet going outside to setup small outpost and/or teach kids outside of camp would be easier.
It matches well zoom mods (newbies on vanilla gameplay do not explore also because of small view range). If applied with animals slow regeneration (mouflons, bisons, turkeys) it would encourage players to setup small, even temporary outposts.
A badland camp hunting mouflons and managing mine? Sure! Grassland rabbit eaters protecting fur and trading backpacks for threads? Why not!
New players are not staying, because OHOL is a fraud. It promises to be about parenting and building civilization. It is none of them, because "everything runs out".
How to break parenting
1. Restrict toddler speaking. It is adorable and touchy maybe first 10 times, but getting more frustraing with each attempt.
2. Make game so hard, that experienced players which can teach have to spend all their time saving city from destruction (hi pein!)
3. Make offspring a budding bacteria, not something two players try to give born to. A random child during forging? Great idea!
4. Keep each life unique a way, your offspring success does not affect you. Now there is the useless score. Maybe some players are developing their characters and skills for achieviements, but most of us enjoy rewards much more
How to break building civilization
1. Make Eveing the hardest part of game. Hunter-gatherer lifestyle is essential to allow building outposts and make long-distance travels, to enable wars and trade.
2. Eveing was the most fun part of game. It was already made nearly impossible excluding OHOL hardcore players. Rift makes it even worse.
3. Condemn everyone to inevitable doom. If you think that encourages people to build civilization, consider this video
And a bonus, how to piss of playerbase
1. Tell a solo-made indie game must have declining playerbase after 18 months. Consider Minecraft.
2. Tell how complex this game is mentioning all semi-states. Ignore that items in other games are state machines increasing complexity to levels not possible for OHOL
3. Tell you are the best solo designer (I've spent 173 hours in StarDrive 2, 17 hours in OHOL since Steam release. Also Steam Charts says, SD2 is better )
4. Disregard zoom
5. Give them "dogs" and "potatoes"
This is not bugs nor design which breaks OHOL. It is it's philosophy.
Beautiful discussion, no doubt! I enjoy reading valid points, like poor tutorial and tooltip. But this game would not need any of them, if it was successful in parenting part. I will keep looking to the forum sometimes, feeding my salty satisfaction how OHOL is dying, just as I expected it will.
I used to play OHOL in past. I come here sometimes to check if Jason is putting more fun or more grind into the game. See you next time
Nie wiedziałem pein, że piszesz po węgiersku. Szkoda tylko, że po przetłumaczeniu w translatorze wychodzi z tego bełkot. Czy oryginalna wypowiedź miała sens?
Estas stranga por mi neniu uzas tiun lingvon
So, property fences discourage a significant proportion of players from caring about their lineage surviving?
I believe no. Just, before property fences, you could not contribute to the village while working on selfish projects. Everyone could just approach and take part of your work, even if you didn't like it. But the only way before to protect it was to attack, which is very troublesome. Reasonable players were making quick calculations and it is obvious, in single life it is better to not punish stealer. Because, punisher is always harmed by slowdown and temporary handicap and is usually tried to be killed by other villagers.
So, selfishness is the same, only now we can show our egoism to others. Which is great, IMHO.
I am totally against craftable zoom. This would benefit only late game, while zoom is mostly beneficial for early settlements.
Game looks like crap with the zoom mod, so it will never be official.
Game has low resolution and looks like crap on big screens. I know people who use tv hanged over PC desk. I personally cannot stand the aesthetics of default zoom, so I play mostly at 2x zoom. So, this argument is valid only for watching gameplay on mobile devices.
The hardcore players don't get this, but part of the game's widespread appeal is the close-in, personal nature of the whole thing. Being able to see the characters and their interactions.
No. You Jason don't get this, but zoom mods are scalable. Hardcore players are zooming in for conversation and crafting. We are zooming out for gathering resources, finding tools and building. None of those 3 things has anything with close-in experience. In fact, we enjoy the game more, because we can see the city layout, we see beautiful landscapes created by your algorithms. And, this is funny, we are involved in more close-in experiences, not less. I often see far away bubbles, but on zoomed out view it is hard to recognize who is talking about what. So I often stop my work to come close and participate in griefer judgement, help somebody looking for tools (I almost always am rewarded with 'Thank you' or 'Tx'), or just look at beautiful stories being told. All this close-in moments are exclusive to us, zoom users, who can notice them and come to dive into them. Vanilla players don't even know how much beautiful storylines omit them.
And furthermore, this is what makes the game so great for videos.
Note that none of the most popular videos are using the zoom mod. Even Twisted, as into the game as he is, does not use the zoom mod in most of his videos.
You don't give us zoom, because you want videos without them. Yet, youtubers, even on modded versions, are mostly playing zoomed in You don't trust your players enough, but we will continue to proof we will not overuse zoom
Zooming out when playing roleplay is inconvenient, so you would still get good stories with good look even in zoomed vanilla. But, if there are guides, zoomed vanilla would be more beneficial.
In other words, if this game shipped, originally, with a 2x zoom by default (20x14 tiles visible instead of 10x7), I'm pretty sure the game would have made half the money that it made, and that it would be dead by now with no players or community.
You are still loosing the point. I may even agree fixed 2x zoom would harm the game. But scalable zoom, in which everyone chooses what pleases them, for sure would increase playerbase. I can bet you lost many, many players annoyed by rapid deaths caused by animals during traveling or angry about next hunger death just near to food, because they spent last seconds searching in pointless directions. You call it a good drama, I call it disrespect toward players. And people felt disrespected are leaving the game. You don't even know how big is this lost playerbase, because they do not contribute to the community.
Stupid deaths are happening to me sometimes even when I use zoom. But now I can blame only myself, when before I was quitting for entire weeks blaming you for poor design.
But please realize why it should not be rolled into the official game.
No one wants fixed zoom. But give playerbase a little trust. We will zoom in for close-in moments, without doubts.
One of the most satisfying life in OHOL i had in doomed village, described here. So, please, no.
I would say, a simple mine update would require each time a stanchion kit, at least a fence kit. It is to make a skeleton of underground corridors. You need new iron? Make new corridor, put there stanchion kit as skeleton.
If each iron gathering would require a new stanchion kit, you would need to establish a new city around the vein. You will finally have a city with great comparative advantage, so it would enable intervillage trading.
What the game does well as of now:
- make us share everything and have a nearly silent, wordless team effort for everyone's sake.
You would be the one joining the Borg. I think this is where we fail, because early game requires no communication nor coordination. We are not making a society, but a hive.
non lethal violence will be used by griefers
Yes it will. But notice, that an entire town can react at spot to such behavior. Currently, if griefer gets all the knifes, city is doomed. With non lethal violence even armed griefer would consider dealing with the mob.
But more important, it gives a more gentle way to deal with low level griefing, like stealing or poorly placed buildings. Killing is too much a punishment, so a common agreement across game is to leave stealing not punished.
capturing people is already happening with one door houses, any other addition to that will end up in more griefing
This is different from prison. Prison is, when somebody gets caught, trialed and transported to prison. What we have currently, are traps, blind for criminal past of victim.
the griefing rate in OHOL is very high compared to crime IRL
& that's because life in OHOL is too bland, just to live to survive is just not enough to live at all
You are right. And wrong at the same time. In chimapnzee groups 30% of deaths is when ape kills ape (remember, they do not have medicine, they are biten by leopards and snakes...). In Amazonian savages 15% of deaths is when man kills man. This includes very late birth control with killing infants. The Great Northern War killed 1/4 of Poland citizens, II World War "only" 1/6. With every technological advancement our culture is advancing even more. So, even if reasons are different, ingame griefeing is lower than present in some human societies.
but you probably just want to have griefers stop griefing & thieves stop stealing, GL with your wishful thinking
- - -
But it happens IRL. There are places with very low crime rate, because people in the choose not to commit crimes.
Personally, I love griefers. They are another realism aspect and challenge to deal with. What I believe, we just do not have enough ways to deal with them. Like, non lethal violence, capturing people (Whatever's traps are no real prisoners).police/guarding dogs, ingame communication...
You never know if it is a joke. If it is, "I feel disturbed, please don't do it" sentence may work. But real sexual harrassment is about shocking, dominating and terryfying. In that case he will be rewarded.
My wife met a flasher in real life. When he flashed to her, she laughed about him. It was not my wife, who ran in shame
So was I correct for defending my land?
There is not a single answer, because moral judgement depends on circumstances.
Fotrunately, this is just a game. If you enjoyed ownership, continue this gameplay
What about ingame options to turn it off?