a multiplayer game of parenting and civilization building
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thats not true as people may still mass produce fot stuff like shrimps
That's exactly the point. You need six sheeps to make nest. So, if somebody wants to catch them, he is making six dungs. Buff to wool produce would also address this issue.
In my last life I was tailoring and teaching how to do it. I've made quite a lot of shit this time and this was basically all I could do, so tedious it was.
That's a separate issue from the 'poop apocalypse', and easily addressed in other ways that have nothing to do with poop.
I strongly disagree. Poop is produced after shearing, we shear them too much. Only because amount of wool from one sheep is so low. I suggested to increase this amount about TEN TIMES, which would lead to ten times less poo.
breezeknight, how can I support your suggestions. Do you place them on Reddit? Do you give a link to upvote them?
AstroTitan
Your suggestion would match my about life tokens beautifully. More experienced players will have more tokens, making them more able to start in developing villages. I will post it on Reddit in the evening
I also don't like an idea of timer walls.
Only moving poop to sheep does not cover all our needs. Still, making clothes would be tedious. What if all animals would be skinnable? Cow and pig skin may have the same uses as rabbit furs, which would allow us to craft pouches and backpacks, at last! Also, i would change food for cow or pig, so corn will not be overused.
The poop issue comes from clothing crafting. It would be better to boost amount of fleece/ball of threads per sheep, as it would fix two belows:
1. Excess of poop
2. Tedious, repetitive sheep feeding and shearing
The need for new BIG technology tree is bullshit. Once there is an oil pump and a water diesel pump, a water can be brought in great amounts to any biome. The compost cycle remove dependancy on green biome. The problem is, this is very high tech and requires already build, established and sustainable city. But if there is one, why build another? No early camps in dfferent biomes though. But it can be changed, with only few changes to early tech.
Golden ancient times
A long time ago players could place well anywhere. So, they were stacking wells in green biomes, to have easy access to branches, soil and regrowable berries. Jason changed it on 30th May 2018, so now wells can be placed only on dry ponds. But now, as we have a new pump wells, I think the old system can be restored, so we can place wells anywhere again. This way, early Eve camp will have to stick to swamp/green biome as always, because of initiall need for wild soil deposits and ponds, but later camp could be build anywhere else (except ice and desert, cause to temperature).
There is only one problem: Jason spent many hours trying to balance water supply, as this was an limit to city sutainability, just like today it is iron. He may be hesitant to change it back.
Different technology trees?
No. We always need resources from different biomes. Green/grassland/swamp borders are the best, because of access to rabbits, water, branches, soil, regrowable wild berries and lack of dangers. Everything else we gather from other biomes. So, add technologies:
1. Juniper and pines produce branches for kindling. Or allow us to cut down tree with hatchet.
2. Place wells anywhere.
3. Add to badlands, grasslands and swamps one regrowable wild food source, like cacti and berries. Maybe fishing in ponds?
4. Add soil deposits to grasslands and swamps. This is real life friendly, as soil in swamps and praires is usually much better than in forests.
5. Make possible to craft backpacks from bisons, cows, boars and pigs. This one may be a great technology tree due to tanneries.
EDIT: where does Jason take his soil from?
There was a suggestion to remove soil deposits and allow to make tilled row by just hitting a ground with hoe. I argumented, that people do not move soil in real life for farming and Jason responded, he moves soil in his garden all the time. I would still insist a free soil to come only from composting, but nevermind.
However, if Jason want a wild deposits of soil to exist, more real life friendly would be to extend their appearance, or completely move it to swamps! I can bet Jason, you garden soil was taken from swamp peat
Guess you didnt read my post because I basically called for most of those solutions aside from meat decay
I've read all of them and they are all wrong: they won't fix the poop apocalypse.
Maybe you guys did not notice, but Jason already fixed the excess of mutton problem and is just a minor step from fixing poop excess problem.
Mutton no longer a problem
Fed sheared sheep is becoming a normal sheep ready to shear, producing dung as byproduct. This means, a shephard no longer needs to make a place for growing lamb (few updates ago it was an only way to make dung) by killing adults. So, just teach people, not to kill too many sheeps, you won't have too much mutton.
Ball of thread problem
Excess of poop is just a result of extremally inefficient clothing crafting. To make a dress you will be producing dung as byproduct 12 times! Add hats, add sweaters, cloaks... Also, it forces players to do a tedious job by repeating the cycle gather berries, feed sheep, shear, make ball of thread, repeat... I've just posted it as bug on OHOL Github. Comment it and support it there.
I would suggest otherwise. IRL there is sheep giving enough fleece for 4 sweaters. However, you need 3 goats from Cashmere to make supersoft woman sweater
http://bedtimemath.org/fun-math-sheep-and-sweaters/
In OHOL you need 6 sheeps to make one sweater, which is very tedious. I suggest, that using spindle should give you a stack of six ball of threads. By right clicking you can add/remove balls from stack, by left clicking you combine them into small balls of yarn leaving the rest of crafting untouched.
I personally value OHOL for minimum magic. Exceptions are naming, Nosaj, ancient stone wall, afterkill slowdown. I hate all of them. In real world, ownership is basing on other's agreement. Jason can make easier ownership claiming, but we still have no reason to do so. In my last game as man I had a locked chest and had NOBODY to give key to it. No one was my kid.
Maybe not permantently, but magical fence would very much push me away from playing OHOL.
To be hones: why not give dogs abitility to protect ownership? Would not it be faster, more consistent and elegant?
What if you made a step transition instead?
A + B = C0 + D
C0 + T = C
Where C0 is initial version of C with no wait time, but immediate transition. This second transition has T as biome influence. Can be temperature.
It's good to know. I was never taught about it, and I believe most players ingame neither. Spread this information You are right making lock is long. But locking is super fast and you almost cannot prevent it.
Regarding hidden keys: did you give a duplicate to your kids? Or made a big clutter object in town just for yourself?
Just make a grave dissappear after 24-48 hours, leaving a flat stone This would release tracking the data of buried person
I'm currently leaning toward elders (50+) being the ones who control/bless planning and building efforts.
But why elders? Experience is gathered trough multiple lifetimes. Not one, like IRL
It's astounding to me that people don't see the potential benefits to control over resources that would come from private property.
It's astounding me you don't see a real problems buildings are causing.
1. It benefit griefers too much. Players learned the hard way not to close building and not to attach doors, because it encourages griefer to come from nowhere and lock it for himself. Even if you lock it, unlocking it is also very fast, so your property is poorly protected. To fight it, putting lock on doors must become a long, complicated and loud process, so the real owner can react on it in tine. The same with taking lock off, players need time to react.
2. You cannot duplicate keys, so you cannot share locked building with friends or family. Every locked bulding becomes a storage or a prison, but not a home. And this is poor storage, because taking lock off is so easy and fast. Give a way to copy keys, we will have homes.
3. Even if keys are reproducable and you share it with your family members, the next time you come to the village, you may not receive keys to the your work from previous life. Therefore, every long term project you want to work trough multiple lifes, must be processed outside! If you rework spawn system not only to allow stick to lineage, but also yo be reborn as direct descendant of your kids, you can work multiple lifes on one project inside.
Regarding second layer: it may work! Make a one tile of space outside a 3x3 space inside, so it would still be beneficial to make bigger buildings. Second layer would decrease the time spend on travelling between workshops. Also, it can be a foundation for future cave, camps, public transport, massive airplanes and ships
Such a road should also give speed bonus, just marginal. Otherwise, people will be buildng single path tile in close proximity to each other to save resources and labour. We need continuous roads
L
so what's better hippie or soviet?
In reality hippie (but also jewish "kibbutz"), because it is voluntary and you can leave it. In Soviet communa everybody tried to escape and eacapees were being arrested and shooted for it.
In game? I hope we will not see
But also, I agree with BlueDiamondAvatar. Buildings are more common nowadays, which means the pros of them are very close to cons! Pros:
- give property feature
- give warm
- are nice
Cons
- take much space
- block movement trough limited doors
- expensive
Putting shelves, stoves and hearthstones on the side of wall, within its tile, will be very beneficial. Also, we are not using locks not because they are hard to do, but because they are so easy to grief.
From happy hippie communas we will go to Soviet communas, where rulers owns everything and other players are equally a piece of shit. This cannot end right
Also, if the towns are close enough for trade, that means the biomes are close enough to travel between too
This would not be a problem, if land can be protected. Dogs may be useful to detect such intruders and say them: Get the fuck off my property!
Invisible, untradable locks are terrible idea! I want someday be offered a key to locked chest without knowing what is inside
The problem with lock, it is very easy griefing tool. To fight it, I proposed making lock installation a long, loud process. Details here, in section Access.
If you want players to do something, reward them for it! With things, players are requesting for! I've brought once the idea of life tokens.
How to loose it
1. Once every hour a life token is lost.
2. Once per death a life token is lost, unless it is from the old age.
3. Being cursed enough times.
4. With the extinction of your last lineage
How to gain it
1. Receive enough blesses
2. Die of old age
3. With every generation which is born to your last lineage
What to spend them for
1. Extended lifespan
2. Extra hunger pip
3. Being reborn to chosen lineage or closest woman to the chosen grave or home marker
4. Ability to make full sentences as toddler
5. Golden speak bubble (extremaly costly), so other players will see how skillful you are. This will give a real authority golden crowns are lacking, so we can have real rulers and prophets
This system is flexible. If you see there is too less/much of certain behaviour, you can adjust prices for rewards or change the rules for gaining/loosing them. This will also make this game more rewarding to power players, people will have progress posiive feedback. You will add some grind to the game and reasong to take care about developed cities.
What this system lacks, is detection of sophisticated events, like trades or truces. It for sure it will be a way you Jason can show us your will and convince us to do as it pleases you!
You can Jason give us NPC guards, so even without building and locks we could protect our property. Make dogs feedable with any meat, even rabbit. Allow us to name them just like we name boys. Implement movement and guard commands. Give them ability to stand over items, just like players. Animals cannot stand over items.
- You are Jake! - You are now dog's owner
- Jake left! - dog is going on the tile just left from player. Let there be a basket, dog will stand over it, just like player
- Jake guard! - if somebody except owner will do any action with guarded item, dog will attack. Nice would be also growling or barking, if whoever will stand next to guarded tile.
This way dog will find use finally, ownership will be better protected and we will have a better chance for trade! Is there any disadvantage of this approach?
Ocean and river trading was better IRL, because you could move big cargo at low cost. Here in game moving cart is free, so ships would need even greater load capacity. The problem is, everything must fit one tile. So no ships, maybe boat which may be container possible to stack like 20 items and a sailor himself. Sounds crazy, but I like the idea!
But this is not a problem. If trade would be profitable, it would occur even without oceans. In Europe-Asia there is proof to long land trade routes even in paleolit era, before agriculture.
The problem is economic I believe:
1. Trade would be beneficial to village, but not as much for trader. Imagine your village is lacking soil and somebody brought a full cart of it on its own. Will he be rewarded? Or the villagers will take everything as their own, because it is considered a village property? This is, because game design discourage ownership (My thread about it).
2. Comparative advantage. You don't need a monopoly on carrots. You don't even have to be better in making carrots. You can be worse than your trade partner. If comparative advantage is big enough, the trade will occur and you will sell carrots to your partner. The problem here is meta, because successful villages are always formed at forest/grassland/swamp border, because access to rabbits, ponds and soil/food is crucial for survival. It was suggested to Jason multiple times, to make each biome sustainable on its own, then the trade will occur without further changes, because of limited access to certain resources. I will make thread with maths in my FTW series about it.
I guess part of what I'm trying to do here is figure out a way to bring villages closer together without it degenerating into one big "mush" of civilization, or without short-circuiting the idea that a village really will be lost if it dies out.
[...]
I guess this is an interesting way to frame the problem. Instead of thinking about a lack of drama, or story variety, or war, we can think just about that problem. How can villages be close together and still lost when they die out?
Such close villages is a great thing! Don't be worry, if they keep to repopulate each other, they will both die at the same moment because of lack of resources!
And this lack of resources will allow for a very interesting problem: Tragedy of the commons..
But, it will require one more thing: a constantly regrowing resource, which can be gathered at sustainable level, but overexploiting it will destroy it. If the resource would not regrow, both cities will end up in exploit race without chance to peacefullt manage the resource. What would it be? Branches? Berries? Regrowable milkweed?
Jason, the community supports you, but do not enforce them either way of gameplay!
Enforcing players to continue the lineage will prohibit them from challenging Eve's run! Such an innoviation will make half of players griefers, trying to completely kill off their own families. You would have only civil wars, much toxic behaviour around players and you will have to abandon it in shame. I completely agree with Whatever, that much better would be a possiblity to be reborn to one of the families you already lived within!
But, not for free. Make two deals at once! You can, Jason, apply here still lineage/area ban (but make it apply earlier, like after 10 min, so no work-suicide chain possible to do by Tarr), and allow to disable it for certain area/lineage as a reward for:
- living to the old age
- being buried
- being blessed by enough family members, just an anti-curse system
This way, being nice to other players and making close relationship will be crucial to allow you to continue your multigenerational projects! You can make connection between roleplayers and powerplayers, many of us requested for!