a multiplayer game of parenting and civilization building
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I disagree Trusty.
This is why we need manacles to "restrain" people.
We don't have the numbers worked out yet, but we need to figure it out. Could 10 satellites radiate out from a central town, and that town still maintain itself longer than any has yet?
We do have the numbers. The second longest running dynasty (about 70 generations) survived partly because the family was split up amongst 4 towns. During off-peak only 1 or 2 of those cities were occupied. I doubt we'll ever have a megalopolis with 10 satellite towns though.
Also, you made the argument that you're being selfless by raising every single child. That's hardly accurate - you do it because you feel bad when your inaction causes another player to die (which is healthy). With your playstyle, I don't see how you can spend quality time with every child. When I have a child, I will tell him/her the story of the town, what generation it is, and pertinent information about the lay of the land. Often, if I have time I'll ask if I can teach them something. By limiting my reproduction, it means the children I do keep, have a higher quality experience.
Also, it's nice when I actually do work and contribute to my family rather than just creating extra mouths to feed (my own included).
Was just in a town that sure could've used a carrot seed guard dat irony
Your town didn't need a seed guard, they needed less people... Seed guards are a waste of oxygen.
Alleria wrote:It would mean selfish parents who want to respawn again will not abort any of their girls (or use contraception if added).
Another positive side effect
Coordination problems are way more interesting than mud farming.
You just to watch the world burn, methinks!
it pisses me off wasting time, yes, maybe they could go out with a basket and get a soil but they never do, as they never feed sheep after shearing, as they never water berries after eating
how much a life worth?
Please don't tell me you feed sheep after shearing... You're wasting 40+ food every time you do that...
If you are, then please stop. The only sheep you're supposed to feed are babies. Never shear the last sheep.
Alleria wrote:Being a seed guard means you spend five minutes of your life protecting 7 seeds. This means you're costing your civ about 60 calories - that is a lot!!! If you're really in such a food insecure position, you should be culling the herd, not wasting calories. You should always have a backup seed row hidden away anyway. You could spend those 60 calories foraging for seeds as well.
If you let a 4 carrot row seed, then you should be killed (pls don't take out of context).
Well maybe a small time farm with 7 seeds won't use a guard, maybe if they are 28 seeds?
How you know how many calories that is? I assume you mean hunger boxes right?
Calories are what hunger bars are often called, yep. It's not realistic that you'd ever have more than 2 seed rows though, so moot point. In a hypothetical scenario where the whole server lives in one town it still wouldn't make sense to have a dedicated seed guard. At that point, you may as well just have a full-time carrot farmer (oh wait we usually have half the town farming carrots...). If you have people eating from the carrot row, then you're low on food, and seeds aren't your biggest concern...
More specifically:
You can be born in any of the bloodlines aka descendant trees that started with an Eve or you.
If you're born as a woman, the rest of the bloodline you've been born into is now inaccessible. Can't spawn as your own cousin.
(Since men are currently defective, cutting the unlucky players out of their available trees would be unfair.)This way each village has three sources: immigrants, players that haven't spawned in that village before, and players that have successfully raised children.
It sounds like a great idea and would really suit my playstyle, however it has serious unintended consequences. It would mean selfish parents who want to respawn again will not abort any of their girls (or use contraception if added). This means the responsible players will either be forced to kill their cousins, migrate (potentially taking away babies from main town), or to ignore their common sense and contribute to overpopulation - causing the death of their civ. None of those actions are good for the civilisation.
Being a seed guard means you spend five minutes of your life protecting 7 seeds. This means you're costing your civ about 60 calories - that is a lot!!! If you're really in such a food insecure position, you should be culling the herd, not wasting calories. You should always have a backup seed row hidden away anyway. You could spend those 60 calories foraging for seeds as well.
If you let a 4 carrot row seed, then you should be killed (pls don't take out of context).
The thing is, until we have restraints we'll never have trials. If that child knew someone wanted to kill her, she could have run around and been near invulnerable. You likely did the right thing.
Maybe there should be some point system on what you do.
Every productive thing raises your karma one point i.e. harvest, plant, water, chop, craft. Etc.
Every thing you eat past the age of say 5 lowers your karma one point. Murder is a big hit.
So, in your life, you'd want to come out more productive than harmful. To help new players, perhaps karma doesn't kick in till your 20th life say?
Sounds nice in theory, but it'd be difficult to regulate and balance. For example, if you had tons of thread around, someone could "craft" it all into rope. Or someone seeing an axe, could chop down all the trees (easy fix though, could make it a karma hit to chop useful trees). It'd also incentivise people into "high karma" jobs like carrot farming, even though it's not a very useful job.
I think if we can develop good well use culture that should be part of it. Each well is a water
every 5 min if we can manage them, that is basically a carrot plot what with harvest and pimping
and seeding time..I taught a village to ping the wells once.. well some of them anyways. Maybe they will be more
prosperous. Any TRULY big city will need to use water better than we do currently. It is just hard
but it can be done so we can do it.
I still think the best solution to the wells is making the wells difficult to access, but the cisterns easily accessible to the plebs. For example, instead of having a wall, you have a line of cisterns. The wells room could potentially have a key that is passed on. Let's say you have a big population of 20 people, and 100-150 bushes, you'd need around 15 wells. You could have a well-keeper, who trains an apprentice in their last 10 mins of life, then passes the key to them.
To be fair though, you'd need about 150 tiles for pie storage if you had a population that big, so I doubt we'll ever see a city of that magnitude without a storage solution.
The great thing is we don't even need yeast. I think a way to solve the excess flour, would be to add a bowl of flour into a bucket of water, then wait. In IRL wild yeasts would colonise and ferment the mixture. It wouldn't be beer, since it doesn't have malt or hops, but it'd be alcohol. The resultant mixture could be contained in either mugs (new sprite needed), water pouches (cool meta), or bowls (kinda like a mug).
I might be wrong, but I thought you can just get rid of the oven with pickaxe and water (giving you some of the adobe back). I've only had my charcoal adobe griefed once, and that's going to happen regardless of if it's in a basket or not. Could someone clarify whether oven base is permanent for 24 hours, because I had 2 kilns completely removed yesterday (not grief) and it only took a minute...
I wonder if your bow range is increased via this mod?
Bow range is three tiles, so nope. However, this is hugely advantageous for scouting and learning the layout of your area. I often spend the first few minutes of a life working out where things are, and this mod would mean I wouldn't have to do that at all. I'm not sure how I feel about it, but it definitely changes the difficulty of the game by a huge degree. Would do a lot to making griefing easier to identify, and aid in communication - both huge pluses both for balance and for RP/culture. Hypothetically, I think it'd be fair to remove the food bonus entirely, if this was made widely available.
YAHG wrote:Just because villages are not lasting longer that doesn't mean they shouldn't.
The game shouldn't make it so that it isn't possible to survive, hard is fine but not possible removes the challenge and just makes it dumb..
Well judging by the actual data, is seems that we haven't even come close to reaching the limit this sort of system would set. If the data showed that the current player base couldn't possibly support this kind of thing, then I'd see you point. But it's right there. Now I give you, his numbers are kind of "best case scenario", but if you even half it, it still reaches the standard set by the unreasonable 111 generation.
Also I don't see the logic in making something impossible taking away the challenge. Arguably, if it was impossible, it couldn't get any more challenging, no? Besides, surviving wouldn't be the impossible part. Surviving indefinitely for as long as time stands, would be impossible with an outright ban.
111 generations is not an unreasonable standard, we could have gone on indefinitely, we just got tired and none of the public wanted to play with our city. I was in a civ that reached about 70 generations (rough estimate, I hope Jason could tell us the 2nd longest generation) on the main servers but it died out largely due to underpopulation. Jason's figures are a rough estimate. We'd never even reach 50 generations if people were banned from dynasties for 24 hours. The way 70 generations was reached was through the eventual settlement of 4 neighbouring cities. This meant that if one civ got griefed, the others could resettle later on. Settling multiple cities would be tantamount to griefing if this goes through.
There's two glaring problems of the permanent lineage ban that nobody seems to be addressing.
1. Jason's maths doesn't account for off-peak, which is about 30-40 players and lasting for a few hours. This already "culls" the less desirable civilisations from the world, as a much smaller playerbase is born to the same amount of cities. Also, how many of these players have been hit with that civs lineages "ban"? I doubt we'd ever see a dynasty last more than 18 hours ever again.
2. This would make migration or forking the population an inherently bad thing. I personally like to splinter off if my civ is in a suboptimal location and I think I can find a better place. However, this would mean that my new civ would be in direct competition with the old civ for babies. This means we'll be cycling through the potential players at double the speed as before. No longer will I be able to tell girls to migrate out of the city and form new settlements, and instead when it comes to population management, my only options will be either to murder, or create conditions in which they'll starve to death. There'd be no longer a means to pleasantly solve overpopulation... A new "grief" will emerge where when born as a girl, you migrate and waste that dynasties babies.
One pro is that if Eves did coord track and find their way back to the civ, it'll mean there's an incentive to keep around non-dynastic members. I think there'd be great RP value to running around your village seeing the Smith family and the Deatherages coexisting. The problem with the current meta is that bell towers would not enable this, since a dynasty will no longer survive long enough to complete a belltower.
Another thing we'll see is tech stagnation, and Kubassa rightfully pointed out, once a civ has cycled through the "good" players, they are just going to fall down and collapse. This isn't an IF, but a WHEN. The average player eats more than they produce in labour.
yeah just a few tips: build your kilns far from water, eventually no one makes farm near it
i prefer just under desert, kiln is on first hot spot
leave a space between kilns, 3 is even better than two
keep the adobe inside a basket, or they just splash it on ground, also the stone so they dont make well out of it , you can even dig it aroudn so they cant fit a farm there
Baskets are highly valuable now. I ain't wasting one to store an adobe! I usually keep it behind the kiln.
i'm not saying to ban everyone you don't agree with, not at all, i'm saying that telling someone that they deserve to die or to kill themselves and then turning around and acting like it was a completely innocent "opinion" or a joke that's protected by freedom of speech is wrong and that it should be discouraged from the start, not after the damage has been done.
This is really not the right place for this, but you've brought it up. You're coming from a place of low information - as is everyone except for those directly involved (Vaidisss and myself). I apologised for the main two things I said, and that apology was accepted (he changed his mind after the fact). If you're going to harass someone for most days for a week, expect retaliation. Genocide in the context of the game is when you wipe out a village that's being mismanaged, often before repopulating - I don't know who coined the term. I lost my temper, said mean things, and I regret it.
Also, I keep hearing about a "threat". I never threatened anyone.
Edit: I should be the one apologising because in retrospect it turns out I brought it up in my previous edit lol...
Pies are for mid to late game (you have a sheep pen and compost is soon to be underway), and the minimum amount of pies you should be making in a batch IMO is 12 - or else you're just wasting time. A possible reason why your villages are starving could be that you're making pies inefficiently and moving the smiths tools, when you could be doing something actually helpful like cacti farming or foraging. A more probable reason is that your family are simply producing too many children. Become familiar with the term "carrying capacity" and how it relates to the game. 10 berry bushes, 2 carrot plots, 4 cacti per person on average.
Also, you're probably building the oven near the kiln, which is really inefficient. The oven should be at least a screen away from the forge.
Alleria wrote:Some of the people here seem to have difficulty with irony and humour - not everything you read is said seriously or with ill intent.
straight up just gonna say this conversation isn't about silly memes and if you think people calmly and reasonably suggesting measures to prevent people from having to see people in a gaming chat telling each other 'stfu n*****' and advocating genocide is policing "fun" i really don't know what to tell you lol
i may be making an assumption here, but you probably don't see a problem with spreading and associating yourself with white nationalism because you aren't affected by it, thus you think this conversation is unneeded and that rules would be detrimental to your entertainment. this isn't about creating a spotless "safe space" for easily offended people, it's about discouraging deplorable behavior that could potentially drive away players and revenue for the game, and if someone's willingness to participate in a community relies on their ability to let their hate flag fly, that's just. sad. and i hope they find themselves in a better place one day.
Instead of making this about your opinion of my character, or assumptions about my beliefs, you could have stuck to the point. There is always going to be a degree of toxicity - especially in a game that enables griefing. The topic at hand is about the relationship between freedom of speech, "toxic speech" and the ideal balance between the two. Empower the mods to give official warnings in extreme occasions, sure, but banning people for holding an opinion you disagree with? I hope you can see the irony.
Edit: It's interesting to consider that if threatening to grief or bragging about it were "bannable" then this shit show wouldn't have occurred in the first place.
Drakulon wrote:Nubbcakes wrote:it's completely understandable to not want to have a strict set of rules and guidelines, and to allow people their freedom to express themselves, but i've seen plenty of hate speech, racism, nazi rhetoric, ect. in the discord as well as the forums in the few weeks i've been part of the community.
I dont use discord, but i am on the forums quite often. Where is the racism and hate speech you are talking about? Pls give links.
I think 99.9% of posts here have nothing to do with hate speech and racism.you're right, it isn't really as much of a problem on the forums themselves, especially not as of late with the new moderation. i'm saying i have seen it at some point, and i don't remember well enough to go digging in old threads for examples, but i will say there is presently a member on the forum with a literal nazi slogan signature, not sure if it's been changed yet but...
If you're upset that easily, then I'm happy to oblige (read my sig)...
There's a fine line between turning the Discord/forum into a "safe space" versus a place where people on occasion are offended. Given this is a multiplayer game and given human nature, there will always be griefing. So long as people are allowed to brag about their griefs in a public forum, there will inevitably be people who take offence and will retaliate in a negative fashion. Some people have complained about the uses of words like "pleb" and "noob", although there have been more negative words thrown around (often in a humorous context). No matter how far you censor, there will always be someone offended. For example, I assume the signature I'm using for this post will offend some, given the author, but you could hardly say the quote itself is offensive. But who's to say which authors are offensive and which aren't? I've seen just as many references to communism and Stalinism, but nobody seems to be getting offended at that - and rightfully so. Some of the people here seem to have difficulty with irony and humour - not everything you read is said seriously or with ill intent.
Obviously as a community we don't want to drive away new players. We want to foster a pleasant "garden" where people feel welcome both so the game continues to attract new people, but also retain those who already play. Many of us notice the player turnover is rather high, decreasing the value of teaching the plebs, since they might only play the game for another few lives. We also want to keep the sales figures high so Jason has a motivation to add new content. I personally don't see how memes or unrelated but civil intellectual discussions make the environment "toxic", and frankly, if that turns you off, then just don't read it. I think the current "rule" that you shouldn't interrupt game related conversations is working well.
What should be done? We could have a joke and meme-free sterile environment, which would eliminate some of the potential for offence, but it'd mean the fun police win. Alternatively, we trust one another to self-regulate and encourage each other to speak up (or a tap on the shoulder by a mod) when someone is saying something offensive. I know which one I'd rather.
Poop is overproduced in a late stage civilisation. Definitely not a good idea to worship literal shit.
Why would you start composting if there's not enough milkweed? It's very unlikely you're going to have the sheep necessary to compost. If I need a job done, I'll run around broadcasting what the necessary jobs. Hopefully someone steps up and helps out.
jasonrohrer wrote:Good idea!
I can't wait to see these results.
Though I suppose I have these answers already in the data....
I wonder how many girls on average get to live compared to boys.
Would be fascinating to get some real results, given forum users are significantly more skilled and knowledgeable than the average player - so we're gonna get some heavy selection bias.
Honestly there's no need for more than two females, and have the rest be males. Two women to stay home and tend the farm/tend to and educate the future generation (population control); and males to take care of everything else. Honestly it's really frustrating to be in a city with 4 or more women and be up to your eyeballs in screaming kids, which then turn to dead bodies you have to move, which turns into a depressing mass graveyard. Like I said, I think the problem is more of based in shortsightedness than anything else. You only need 2 (MAAAAYBE 3) females, anything more than that is overkill.
Given 1/3-1/2 of your babies are going to die, I doubt any civ you have near absolute control over would last for more than 5 generations. Extra females are an essential insurance policy.