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#176 Re: Main Forum » Idea for a leadership ability: Orders » 2019-12-14 14:26:59

DarkDrak wrote:

So, basically... now, when you're a king, you can send a baron to another settlement and have their direct follower right next to you. Then the baron will send orders to the follower, he'll relay them to you and you will send orders to the baron. Effectively achieving long distance communication with three people, doable since eve camp. Without the use of a radio. Without the need of cellphones. Just with bare telepathy.

With two people. They can follow each other in turns, this won't even break the tree.

A radio can still be better. Like tunics: same thing as hovering the mouse over the character, just more streamlined. But I guess they might need to be cheaper to be a viable strategy? I don't know if people are using radios to talk to other towns right now.

#177 Re: Main Forum » Idea for a leadership ability: Orders » 2019-12-14 11:46:21

Orders could stick around on the screen instead of being a notification.
This would help with long-term orders like "this quarter we're building a road to Donkeytown", especially when new followers join.
This could even work as a notice board for working groups: you can follow a bunch of people to see what they're doing and join the group that you think does something important.

But having too many orders at the same time would be confusing. Some ideas:

  1. Restrict each leader to one order.

  2. Prioritize the king's orders over the direct leader's orders. Or the other way around.
    (The king's orders are more important, but the direct leader's orders are more relevant. Maybe there should be two of them: "global" prioritizes the king's orders, "local" prioritizes the direct leader. Can be especially useful when the king and the leader are not in agreement.)

  3. Cycle through all orders, same as recipes.

#178 Re: News » Update: Lead and Follow » 2019-12-14 11:37:16

If orders make it into the game sometime in the future, they could even replace the mechanic for exiling people.
When there are too many exiles running around, it doesn't matter too much that they're easily visible. When there's only one exile from time to time, it should be easy enough to remember their name.

#179 Re: Main Forum » Idea for a leadership ability: Orders » 2019-12-14 08:34:51

Oh yeah, it would definitely allow people to stalk other people.

Not sure how bad that would be.

You could also exploit this for navigation by following people from other villages.

#180 Re: Main Forum » Idea for a leadership ability: Orders » 2019-12-14 07:23:21

Yep, sounds like a good idea.

There could also be an arrow pointing towards your current leader.
1. Easier to find them to discuss something
2. Can be used in mass migrations

You could also just directly message your leader, but this could be abused since following is one-way. But you could mute the exiled followers.

#181 Re: Main Forum » Coming soon: voluntary leadership » 2019-12-13 00:16:01

DestinyCall wrote:

Also please point me in the direction of an organization that gives you money to join.    In my experience, it is usually the opposite.

I mean, salary?

But you pay taxes to governments, hm.

#182 Re: Main Forum » Coming soon: voluntary leadership » 2019-12-12 23:29:33

Random thought: an important quality of any modern organization is that it pays its members.

Food may be even more important in OHOL than in real life, so I'd expect a really powerful king to control the distribution of food.
But I guess it's practically impossible to control access to food in OHOL. You can always munch berries. Unless the efficiency gains are so huge that you can appoint a guard to every farm.

#183 Re: Main Forum » Coming soon: voluntary leadership » 2019-12-12 21:16:56

jasonrohrer wrote:

Everyone currently sees all badges and titles for all trees.  So you can know who the other guy's King is, because he is decorated.  You don't see him as YOUR KING JAMES, just KING JAMES, and his badge is a different color from yours, but you still see his chevrons.  You can also see all of King Jame's followers without following him.

The main info you gain by joining is the shared exile list that the king is maintaining, but that doesn't seem like a big secret.

Hmm. Maybe you can band with other exiles. But that's about as useful as recruiting neutrals, I guess.

#184 Re: Main Forum » Coming soon: voluntary leadership » 2019-12-12 20:21:23

jasonrohrer wrote:

Something interesting that I've been thinking about.  In general, even in real life, you can't force someone to follow you, but you also can't prevent them from following you.  If they want to treat you as your leader, you can't stop them.  I mean, unless you issue them a command to stop following you.  "I'm not your leader.  That's a direct order!"  But it's a self-defeating order, right?

That's true. But right now being a follower does two things no matter what your leader thinks of you:
1. You get information about all the other followers
2. You affect all the other followers by making them see you as an ally

I guess the second one is similar to a real life situation where anyone can claim to be a feminist even if they're hated by half of the other people who also claim the same thing. On the other hand, I think such claims are relatively inconsequential IRL. Not sure.

jasonrohrer wrote:

I'm reminded of that scene at the end of Sword in the Stone where they all decide Arthur is king, and he's like WTF, I don't want to be king!  But they all hail him anyway, and they stick him in the castle, and he's basically trapped.

That's fictional evidence though smile

jasonrohrer wrote:

There is a question about people UNDER an exiled Baron, and what happens there.  They aren't (currently) seen as exiled themselves.  They did nothing wrong.... I think I may need to fix that.  They should be highly motivated to stop following the exiled Baron, right?  Not just slink along under him and trick people into seeing them as allies.  Maybe they could get "half an X", or a black \ over their badge...

Oh yeah, people should know that they've been exiled by one of their leaders. Hmm, can they just see themselves as exiles?

Also, this has already been mentioned somewhere, but can the exiles be also banned from following someone who exiled them? I should probably reread both threads...

#185 Re: Main Forum » Coming soon: voluntary leadership » 2019-12-12 18:47:59

I still wonder whether we can get rid of exiling completely.
We could require the leader to accept their new follower. This way everyone who isn't in the same tree is already kind of an exile.

Currently anyone can become an "ally", at least as long as there's only one main hierarchy. The difference between an ally and a neutral is insignificant compared to the difference between an exile and anyone else.
It doesn't even matter that much with two competing hierarchies. It's not enough to exile the competing leader: his followers can temporarily follow you to pretend that they are on your side.

Exiling a single person is basically a "do not hire ever" marker.

I guess if we required leaders to approve their followers, half the rules would change. It would be a tree of two-way contracts. "I trust you, I give up some of my freedoms in your favor, and I expect you to act in my interests." So exiling would be a more specific feature on top of a more general framework for coordination.

#186 Re: Main Forum » Coming soon: voluntary leadership » 2019-12-12 18:13:08

Wuatduhf wrote:

The structure would be more difficult to manage the further down it goes, of course. I haven't fully thought thru what it will look like for a Baron/Count to follow one of their children, who is following the leader that had been above them.

Uhh, good point.
In a chain A -> B -> C -> D, C following A should result in B -> C -> A -> D.
So if Alice was following Bob and decided to follow Charlie, Charlie will be inserted between Alice and Bob.
This will preserve the tree in all cases where a loop could form.

#187 Re: Main Forum » Coming soon: voluntary leadership » 2019-12-12 17:50:53

jasonrohrer wrote:

When you follow one of your followers, that follower should be promoted above you, instead of you getting demoted below them.

Yeah, that's a good way to describe it :0

#188 Re: Main Forum » Coming soon: voluntary leadership » 2019-12-12 17:20:00

StrongForce wrote:

Does the lord need to follow the count to keep the chain or is it automatic?

Automatic. The lord will start following the count and get all of the baron's exiles.

#189 Re: Main Forum » Coming soon: voluntary leadership » 2019-12-12 17:16:52

jasonrohrer wrote:

Loops are detected and broken.  If you follow one of your sub-followers, the person who is now at the top stops following you.

Mary follows Steve.  Steve becomes a Lord

snip

Grant follows Mary.  Lisa automatically stops following Grant, and Grant is no longer King.  We then have Lady Mary, Baron Steve, Countess Jessica, Duke Clint, and Queen Lisa.  Grant has no title.

All of the followers of the person (Grant) who completed the loop unfollow him, right?

It may be better to make the newly followed person unfollow their leader instead.
This way exactly one link will be changed automatically, not N.

This will also work as a way to choose a successor.
1. The king chooses a duke as the leader -> the duke becomes the king, but with one huge branch and a bunch of smaller ones.
2. The old king dies -> the new king inherits the other dukes as followers.

Btw, can you follow yourself? Not "I FOLLOW MYSELF", but "I FOLLOW KINRANY"?
Can you exile yourself?

jasonrohrer wrote:

Before King dies, they pick someone to inherit their position, and say, "I FOLLOW YOU"

Before the death of the King, that person becomes an Emperor.  But they are really just a temporary Emperor.  Let's call them a Temperor.

Oh, right, you already mentioned this. But, as above, this will cause a loop, and the king probably shouldn't lose all the followers that moment.

jasonrohrer wrote:

There is a tiny information hole here, and I'm not sure how to patch it.  You don't know WHO exiled someone, so you don't know who to go to in order to protest.  You just know that either you or someone above you did it.  And the full information here is hard to provide, because it's complicated.  You could be exiled by a long list of people, so we can't present that info on mouse-over.

I could make REDEEM pass downwards.  So if a Baron exiles someone, the Count, Duke, or King above them can redeem them, overruling the Baron's exile.  So you can always appeal to the supreme leader for help.   Well.... actually, maybe not.  I guess individual people's exile lists should be inalienable.  Or.... maybe... submitting to a leader means you give up the sanctity of your own exile list?  If that leader keeps overruling you and redeeming people, against your wishes, you can always stop following them, or convince your leaders to stop following them.

It's probably enough to know that you were not personally exiled by your leader. After that it's your leader's job to figure out who exiled both of you. And if it takes too long, unfollow.

The top person to be exiled will know that they were personally exiled through a notification and by looking at their leader, who isn't exiled.
Is it true that they'll always want to unfollow their leader ASAP? This way their followers won't scatter right away. But this isn't entirely obvious, and can be automated later if it does become a problem.

Would it make sense to show each person's leader on mouse over?

Spoonwood wrote:

Though, I think it's also the working OHOL child that is most likely to get disturbed by such 'leadership'.

Four horsemen of the culture war: sexism, racism, classism and ageism



There seems to be a number of forces that will make the tree flatter over time. Are there any other mechanisms that will make it deeper, other than the king's vanity?

#190 Re: Main Forum » Coming soon: voluntary leadership » 2019-12-12 08:34:33

jcwilk wrote:
Kinrany wrote:

oh, exiling doesn't prevent a person from being your follower

I think you meant "leader" not "follower" right?

On that note, does exiling someone make them unfollow you and be unable to follow you until they're redeemed? Presumably also unable to follow any of the exiler's follower tree?

I did mean "follower", for the same reason you described! As in, if you exile someone, they are kicked out of your subtree.

Exiling your direct leader is kinda nonsensical, but at least there's the utility of learning that you or one of your leaders exiled one of their leaders.

#191 Re: Main Forum » Coming soon: voluntary leadership » 2019-12-12 00:21:24

Before this is live, I'll write down a few predictions.

1. People will actually have a single hierarchy in most villages after 3 generations
2. People will ask leaders for jobs
3. People will report griefers to leaders
4. Dealing with griefers who aren't leaders will be easier
5. Super-leaders will know more about the state of the village than other people
6. Super-leaders will help people coordinate
7. Super-leaders won't have any time for roleplay

#192 Re: Main Forum » Coming soon: voluntary leadership » 2019-12-12 00:00:24

Wow I'm hyped

An inconsequential prediction: people will form a chain just to get a Supreme Empreror in a village of 9

jasonrohrer wrote:

Someone can still be your leader even if they are exiled (if they are exiled by another leader that you follow), like Your Exiled Lady Eve Smith.

Haha, wait what

Edit: oh, exiling doesn't prevent a person from being your follower

jasonrohrer wrote:

When a leader dies, whatever leader they are following inherits their followers and their exile list.

Hmm, should the super-leader inherit the exile list too? Someone could exile everyone, follow the super-leader, and then suicide to make everyone seem exiled

Edit: maybe the followers could inherit the exile list instead

#193 Re: Main Forum » A better idea for Hierarchy system? » 2019-12-11 23:13:01

DestinyCall wrote:

I'd argue that those kind of leaders are only fun if they are rare.  If all your leaders are total idiots, incompetency stops being amusing for me pretty darn fast.

I hope this part will be self-balancing. The more often a kind of a stupid leader shows up, the better people will be at recognizing them and taking them down.

#194 Re: Main Forum » Hierarchies » 2019-12-11 20:37:35

kaidu wrote:

- having a tree (aka one leader per induced subtree) is dangerous. As soon as a griefer becomes leader, he can abuse this power. How to prevent that? As many people here already said, there is just not enough time to build up trust. One griefer could just behave friendly until getting the crown and then exile everyone

Um, how exactly is a flat hierarchy better?

And exiling everyone is completely useless since only the griefer will see everyone as exiles. She'll get lynched, and the dukes will choose a new king.

#195 Re: Main Forum » A better idea for Hierarchy system? » 2019-12-11 18:28:20

With a democracy you'd probably need a way to keep track of laws. That, or wait for everyone to vote whenever someone is being exiled, or whatever.

Direct democracy doesn't work well because everyone has to spend time thinking about every issue. That's a gigantic waste of effort.

#196 Re: Main Forum » Another Reason Why I Won't Be Playing on BS2 » 2019-12-11 14:40:59

jcwick wrote:

An interesting example, and it reminds me that I still haven't really figured out why with so many clearly intelligent, passionate, and motivated members of the OHOL community there aren't more player run servers out there given that everything is open source...

It's still not an easy thing to do, especially for free. And you'd have to keep up with Jason's upstream changes.

I kinda dream that we'll get a community project that reimplements the whole game as two separate projects: the engine and the game logic. And that Jason will start using the community engine and focus on new ideas. And that a whole ecosystem of interoperable game mechanics will spring up around the engine.
But OneLife is already at 100k LoC, so that's not an easy task.

More realistically, I expect more community projects to pop up once Jason is happy with OHOL and moves on to the next game.

#200 Re: Main Forum » A better idea for Hierarchy system? » 2019-12-11 10:46:45

What if there's no conqueror? For example, it's common enough for Eve babies to run away and start their own villages.

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