Another Reason Why I Won't Be Playing on BS2

Spoonwood · 2019-12-10 02:03:44

"Server-side implementation of following and exile."

https://discordapp.com/channels/3282153 … 2783836161

Grim_Arbiter · 2019-12-10 02:13:43

I exile spoon

Legs · 2019-12-10 02:28:39

All these awful updates one after another. They're hamstringing the game. At this rate I'm going to turn into a fulltime griefer. Idiots with crowns were bad enough. Who wants to deal with an idiot that has functional authority? Nobody with any understanding or mental capacity would even entertain these changes.

Wuatduhf · 2019-12-10 02:32:10

Points to giant thread where this whole feature came from us and not Jason, and is inherently interesting to explore how it'll survive from theory to practice.

Legs · 2019-12-10 03:03:07

Wuatduhf wrote:

...

Yes. It's blatantly stupid and should have been ignored like all the other popular and stupid ideas.

It's very much the type of mechanic that should have been included in the base game prior to release if it was ever going to remotely be a thing at all. Similar to tool slots and family specialization. Don't release a game and then dramatically alter its base mechanics in these harmful ways, that's literally cancer. Release a solid base then expand on it with new content. That's what was promised and it was a total lie.

The base game on steam release was perfect, an extremely rare gem that truly rates 10/10. Now it's trash, because it's being actively ruined. There is no excuse beyond ignorance and tragically poor taste.

Spoonwood · 2019-12-10 03:17:43

Wuatduhf wrote:

Points to giant thread where this whole feature came from us and not Jason, and is inherently interesting to explore how it'll survive from theory to practice.

I don't think you used 'us' correctly. I'm sure you can find me throwing plenty of darts at this idea, as if it were a balloon that I could pop before it started to fly away. Heck, I tried to tell Jason that it isn't too unlikely that this could affect his own gameplay negatively. And really, that was just one of the first of many problems that I think will occur with this bossy system. And since I made the thread, I'm part of your audience for your comment.

Additionally, Jason was the one who said this:

jasonrohrer wrote:

In terms of bootstrapping, or people forgetting to use this feature, these relationships could be inherited. If your mother follows Bob, you follow him too by default.

No one prompted him on that.

That this made for a popular concept wasn't known by any stretch of the imagination. There was no survey taken. Plenty of players don't read the forums. And there was heavy criticism of it right form the start.

Last edited by Spoonwood (2019-12-10 03:19:05)

Spoonwood · 2019-12-10 03:40:10

Also, did you guys also check the discord after Jason implemented this idea for the next update? Because I'm seeing more negative emotes there than positive ones. It seems like it goes against popularity according to those emotes.

testo · 2019-12-10 07:15:29

HAHA

I FOLLOW YOU
I SERVE YOU
YOU ARE MY LEADER
I AM YOUR FOLLOWER
I SUBMIT TO YOU
I BOW TO YOU
I FART TO YOU
YOU ARE MY MASTER
YOU RULE OVER ME
YOU LEAD ME

Spoonwood · 2019-12-10 07:53:36

Grim_Arbiter wrote:

I exile spoon

I might have been able to respect your leadership skills Eve Grim. But, I never had a chance to choose such a relationship. Better to run freely with the devil than to be forced into heaven. Thank you for the exile. Your daughter has cut a yew branch. Better run!

sigmen4020 · 2019-12-10 07:59:16

I'm a bit out of the loop, but what is this change supposed to do? And why are people upset about it? It seems incredibly vague just from looking at the github commit alone.

https://github.com/jasonrohrer/OneLife/ … 9e502e3c6a

Last edited by sigmen4020 (2019-12-10 07:59:37)

Spoonwood · 2019-12-10 08:34:59

Sigmen,

See Jason's comments here: https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=8644 and kinrany's initial post which Jason approved of in large measure. Some "highlights"

kinrany wrote:

To be meritocratic, it needs to be changeable by players. "Bow to the queen or get knifed" works well enough.
...
To give top players power, it should be enough to let them mark their subordinates as exiles. When everyone is in the same hierarchy, it's reasonable to kill on sight everyone who isn't.
...
all exiles are enemies and must be killed on sight.

jasonrohrer wrote:

Yeah, if that was the custom, then it would enforce the rest. Not being part of the clan would be dangerous, so people would want to be part of the clan.
But how does that custom get started? What unmoved mover kicks it off?
...
In terms of bootstrapping, or people forgetting to use this feature, these relationships could be inherited. If your mother follows Bob, you follow him too by default.

Jason tries to qualify that in the next sentence, but young children can't get the words out, because they don't have enough words. Anyways, this is the next sentence:

jasonrohrer wrote:

You can switch your leader later, by following someone else.

There's also the issue that such will invite assassination of the so-called "nobles".

And it's far too over optimistic to believe that the right people will end up at the top of the hierarchy in all too many cases.

Twisted · 2019-12-10 11:07:08

Jason doesn't implement community suggestion, Spoonwood complains.

Jason implements community suggestion, Spoonwood complains.

In conclusion, Spoonwood complains.

Spoonwood · 2019-12-10 11:56:51

Twisted wrote:

Jason doesn't implement community suggestion, Spoonwood complains.

A community is a group. There were TWO people who thought this a good idea before Jason decided on it. Check the link that I gave to sigmen. Kinrany proposes it. Keyin seconded it. The Anabaptist implies it will be useless to him, because he won't remember it. And DestinyCall jokes around offering no opinion on it at all. Then Jason decides on it. Then I object.

This wasn't agreed on by some large portion of the community. Not even remotely close.

On top of that this will result in inter-family violence. It means a formal means to kill off family members. It means a formal means to kill off young girls or fertile women in a family. And in some cases those deaths won't happen because the player made bad choices, but because they had a relationship forced on them and got exiled before they could disown the relationship... or they didn't know about the system, as people do NOT learn how such systems work in general for quite some time. The game is supposed to be a multiplayer game of parenting where people play for the sake of their lineages.

Twisted has resorted to an attempt at snark, because my arguments and exposure of the lack of process just go too deep. It's nothing more than an attempt to distract attention away from valid objections and problems, and opinions of others on the discord (note those negative emotes), and distract attention away also from the system being inconsistent with what the game gets promoted as.

Thanks again Grim. I'll happily migrate away from the senseless and destructive bloodbath that's coming down the pike.

testo · 2019-12-10 11:58:43

Twisted wrote:

Jason doesn't implement community suggestion, Spoonwood complains.
Jason implements community suggestion, Spoonwood complains.
In conclusion, Spoonwood complains.

He does a lot while complaining to be honest, for starters he made this same thread where you are posting.
Then there are some other people that would love to be followed but for some reason stink (I am in that group actually XD)

Melea · 2019-12-10 12:15:11

Spoonwood wrote:

A community is a group. There were TWO people who thought this a good idea before Jason decided on it. ... This wasn't agreed on by some large portion of the community. Not even remotely close.

Jason implemented a poll in-game. But he never uses it to ask the players if they would like a particular feature or not? A brief after-life poll is gonna reach a lot more players than some random thread in the forums.

Twisted · 2019-12-10 12:43:55

Spoonwood wrote:

Twisted has resorted to an attempt at snark, because my arguments and exposure of the lack of process just go too deep. It's nothing more than an attempt to distract attention away from valid objections and problems, and opinions of others on the discord (note those negative emotes), and distract attention away also from the system being inconsistent with what the game gets promoted as.

Eh, I don't find the concept of exiling/following that interesting either. But who knows? I thought the Rift was an interesting idea, I ended up hating it. I thought family specialization was bafflingly bad, but I ended up liking it.

It's an undeniable fact that 95% of your posts here are complaining. You really love complaining and you're going to complain no matter what, that's just what you do on these forums. If that commit was about adding oranges you'd probably make a post complaining that you don't like oranges and than no one asked for them and that oranges don't occur natrually in the wild.

sigmen4020 · 2019-12-10 13:39:53

Spoonwood wrote:

...

Thanks for the response.

Having read up on it, it seems like just another reason to RP murder each other all day, kinda like a crown 2.0 lol. Most vets don't have time to stand around and make themselves look good/likable, so I doubt that anyone who knows what they are doing will end up in the upper parts of the hierarchy. From what I saw it doesn't seem to have a direct gameplay effects. Outside of this system it doesn't seem like you lose anything from being exiled, or gain anything from being the king or whatever outside of RP status.

I'll see how it goes, but I don't think it's really gonna add anything to the game outside of the possibility of more RP murder for status.

Last edited by sigmen4020 (2019-12-10 13:40:19)

sigmen4020 · 2019-12-10 13:48:49

Melea wrote:

Spoonwood wrote:
A community is a group. There were TWO people who thought this a good idea before Jason decided on it. ... This wasn't agreed on by some large portion of the community. Not even remotely close.
Jason implemented a poll in-game. But he never uses it to ask the players if they would like a particular feature or not? A brief after-life poll is gonna reach a lot more players than some random thread in the forums.

Yea, don't know why he doesn't use it more often. The last poll he made is from September 25th, over two months ago. I wonder why he implemented it in the first place since it's barely getting any use.

If you count his first test poll he's made 4 polls over the span of 6 months.

Last edited by sigmen4020 (2019-12-10 13:58:59)

Spoonwood · 2019-12-10 16:28:10

Melea wrote:

Spoonwood wrote:
A community is a group. There were TWO people who thought this a good idea before Jason decided on it. ... This wasn't agreed on by some large portion of the community. Not even remotely close.
Jason implemented a poll in-game. But he never uses it to ask the players if they would like a particular feature or not? A brief after-life poll is gonna reach a lot more players than some random thread in the forums.

Yep.

Spoonwood · 2019-12-10 16:48:06

Twisted wrote:

Eh, I don't find the concept of exiling/following that interesting either. But who knows? I thought the Rift was an interesting idea, I ended up hating it. I thought family specialization was bafflingly bad, but I ended up liking it.
It's an undeniable fact that 95% of your posts here are complaining. You really love complaining and you're going to complain no matter what, that's just what you do on these forums. If that commit was about adding oranges you'd probably make a post complaining that you don't like oranges and than no one asked for them and that oranges don't occur natrually in the wild.

I left in a note in the feast table update that such had appeal to low pop players from what I heard.

I also think I made a note about how maps are nice. Scratch that, maps are great!

I've liked rubber tire horsecarts... road building is much nicer than before I stopped playing at all for several months.

Waystones were something I was skeptical about, but I rather like them now even if they aren't working for their intended purpose. I also saw a town with a group of waystones in a ring around a belltower. I found it pretty neat.

I thought about making a post of changes that occurred since I stopped playing in July now in the game that I like, but then stuff like this attempt at classism happens (the game has always had a peculiar and I think necessary sexism, then Jason put in racism, coming up is classism... at least those labels together sound funny to me).

I may be overly negative Twisted. I would have no self-awareness if I denied that as a possibility.

That all said, I expect inter-family civil conflicts will be bloody and now formally sanctioned because someone got 'exiled', not because of a judgement of someone being destructive to a town or family. And, at the very least, they won't be a good strategy for people trying to make their lineages or towns last long as they can.

Last edited by Spoonwood (2019-12-10 16:49:37)

Spoonwood · 2019-12-10 17:00:38

sigmen4020 wrote:

Having read up on it, it seems like just another reason to RP murder each other all day, kinda like a crown 2.0 lol. Most vets don't have time to stand around and make themselves look good/likable, so I doubt that anyone who knows what they are doing will end up in the upper parts of the hierarchy. From what I saw it doesn't seem to have a direct gameplay effects. Outside of this system it doesn't seem like you lose anything from being exiled, or gain anything from being the king or whatever outside of RP status.

I agree with you, except for one thing. You will lose your safety entirely if you get exiled. If you get exiled, it's more likely that a posse will form to try to kill you.

The best I can say honestly: this won't affect low pop players (I suspect that the system will exist there). They won't use it and just ignore it. Or if they do, I don't expect that they will try to kill an exile. It will be a harmless gaffe in that context. Could be wrong though. I didn't expect to see any low pop players making property fence animal pens, and I've seen that happen now.

sigmen4020 · 2019-12-10 17:13:00

Spoonwood wrote:

I agree with you, except for one thing. You will lose your safety entirely if you get exiled. If you get exiled, it's more likely that a posse will form to try to kill you.

Wait, does exile make it much easier to kill you? That sounds pretty bad considering this whole hierarchy business will probably be nothing more than a constant popularity contest.

JonySky · 2019-12-10 17:15:42

I'm already sharpening my knife ... I can't wait to kill monarchs!

Creating any advanced object in OHOL has become a nightmare ... the skill boxes and the limitation of races is odious for an advanced player ... from now on I will devote myself to raising wild pigs and killing monarchs!

Wuatduhf · 2019-12-10 20:09:35

sigmen4020 wrote:

Spoonwood wrote:
I agree with you, except for one thing. You will lose your safety entirely if you get exiled. If you get exiled, it's more likely that a posse will form to try to kill you.
Wait, does exile make it much easier to kill you? That sounds pretty bad considering this whole hierarchy business will probably be nothing more than a constant popularity contest.

Yes and No. AFAIK there are no 'boost' mechanics that make it easier to kill someone. The only thing that has been discussed is some kind of 'symbol' that is next to or applied to exiled players, that only followers of the exile-ee can see, but who knows where things would go long-term?

A personal desire of mine is to see the Guillotine added with the Hierarchy mechanic in mind; only someone exiled by a King, Queen, a person with sufficient 'standing', could have the rope pulled on the Guillotine. I think they can be placed into it prior to that...? But if a sufficient level of Exile isn't given in time, then they get automatically freed.

Hierarchies makes implementation of a Guillotine much easier to accomplish without having to balance against the cases of lone griefers out in the wilds who would lack the prestige to perform the coup de grâce. It also means that you could directly ban a player from being born in a town permanently, within a 3k radius of the town, as the game would have a feature that directly supports that.

jcwilk · 2019-12-10 20:23:37

Design by committee is a terrible idea. Brainstorming is fine, making suggestions is fine, making complaints is fine, but if you leave the final call up to players then you'll immediately get a broken nonsense game. Find me a successful game where major design decisions are delegated to the players which isn't some superficial fluff like 8bit mmo.

Believe it or not, there's a difference between gamers and game designers

Last edited by jcwilk (2019-12-10 20:24:08)

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#1 2019-12-10 02:03:44

Another Reason Why I Won't Be Playing on BS2

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