Found the issue with Eve placement

jasonrohrer · 2021-05-03 15:00:49

I added some logging last week to the Eve placement, to see what's going on.

The idea is that we take the current homelands a a cluster, discard any outliers that are too far away from the others, and then take the average of the remaining homeland locations, and push Eve slightly to the West of that.

The results of that logging are telling:

Placing Eve for 76561199047381795@steamgames.com at time 1619989769:
    Primary homeland list:  
    Found 0 primary homelands with average x position 0
    After discarding outliers, have 0 primary homelands with average x position 0
Placing Eve for 76561199047381795@steamgames.com at time 1619997039:
    Primary homeland list:  (-16520,-720)  
    Found 1 primary homelands with average x position -16520
    After discarding outliers, have 1 primary homelands with average x position -16520
Placing Eve for 76561198356006943@steamgames.com at time 1619997680:
    Primary homeland list:  
    Found 0 primary homelands with average x position 0
    After discarding outliers, have 0 primary homelands with average x position 0
Placing Eve for 76561198170632706@steamgames.com at time 1620005673:
    Primary homeland list:  
    Found 0 primary homelands with average x position 0
    After discarding outliers, have 0 primary homelands with average x position 0
Placing Eve for pmedley@hotmail.com at time 1620022029:
    Primary homeland list:  
    Found 0 primary homelands with average x position 0
    After discarding outliers, have 0 primary homelands with average x position 0
Placing Eve for 76561197985281904@steamgames.com at time 1620028274:
    Primary homeland list:  
    Found 0 primary homelands with average x position 0
    After discarding outliers, have 0 primary homelands with average x position 0
Placing Eve for guus_samsom@hotmail.com at time 1620037879:
    Primary homeland list:  
    Found 0 primary homelands with average x position 0
    After discarding outliers, have 0 primary homelands with average x position 0
Placing Eve for 76561199112613201@steamgames.com at time 1620039897:
    Primary homeland list:  
    Found 0 primary homelands with average x position 0
    After discarding outliers, have 0 primary homelands with average x position 0
Placing Eve for 76561198934295435@steamgames.com at time 1620047013:
    Primary homeland list:  (-18960,560)  
    Found 1 primary homelands with average x position -18960
    After discarding outliers, have 1 primary homelands with average x position -18960
    Pushing Eve to west of homeland 0 at x=-18960
Placing Eve for 76561198134377901@steamgames.com at time 1620050940:
    Primary homeland list:  (-16440,440)  
    Found 1 primary homelands with average x position -16440
    After discarding outliers, have 1 primary homelands with average x position -16440
jcr13@localhost:~/checkout/OneLife/server$ date -d "@1620050940"
Mon May  3 14:09:00 UTC 2021
jcr13@localhost:~/checkout/OneLife/server$ date
Mon May  3 14:46:09 UTC 2021

So... 45 minutes ago, there was only one primary homeland? What? Is that accurate?

I just logged in as VOG, and I see several very established villages....

I think that if a homeland lapses, b/c no one from that family is born near it for an hour or whatever (like if the family dies out), and then the homeland is resettled latter, and the well is taken over by a new family, it isn't a "primary" homeland for the new family, because it doesn't unlock any new iron.

So most homelands, after a while, aren't primary anymore.

And thus one player, by walking far away in any direction and starting a primary homeland, can sway Eve placement so much.

Obviously, we don't want to consider all non-primary homelands when computing the cluster (b/c then one player could run around digging wells and swamp the average location of the cluster).

But I think we can consider just ONE homeland per family (the oldest one for each family), whether it's primary or not. And that will fix this issue, and give us a real cluster of active family locations (and allow us to discard true outliers).

In other news, I'm still doing some remodel stuff at our house for one more week, but my family has headed back home to start packing.... so we're getting close!

Spoonwood · 2021-05-04 16:01:03

jasonrohrer wrote:

But I think we can consider just ONE homeland per family (the oldest one for each family), whether it's primary or not. And that will fix this issue, and give us a real cluster of active family locations (and allow us to discard true outliers).

Most families, if not the vast majority, resettle in some spot to the right of their Eves spawn location. With that idea, Eve spawns are likely to move left more slowly. But, then Eves won't be as able to be as likely to have the ability to find fresh spots close to the state of nature. It won't just affect Eves or early descendants trying to finding fresh spots. Tarry spots will likely end up further and further away from town locations, since families become *even more* likely to resettle old towns more often.

The problems with the Eve spawn so far away from other families were

1. Necessary resettlement of an abandonded place (I got lucky in that I had a reset spring).

2. Weakened prospects to advance technologically, because acquiring resources was race restricted, or the resource sources were depleted locally.

3. Less opportunity with respect to resources since not as much available initially and acquiring race restricted resources for food and other resources may be more difficult or not possible.

The whole clustering idea for Eve spawns implies that 1. is more likely for more players, and 3. is more likely also with respect to how many resources are available initially, and in the respect that oil will become more difficult to acquire. There also isn't the possibility of technological advancement, once there's no more "new" technology to make.

Clustering of families doesn't add much, if anything at all. It also means that players come as more likely to end up in the common scenario of playing in an advanced town. It also means that how the majority of players play will influence more what scenario all players will end up in. Accordingly, I expect that lives will feel more similar to players.

Morti · 2021-05-04 17:44:03

jasonrohrer wrote:

b/c then one player could run around digging wells

This was one of my favorite activities of the last 3 years, running around, making new homes for families.
Breaks my heart you discouraged this sort of behavior.

Did it lead to our population of 100 people being more scattered? Yes.
Did it cut down on the resources consumed by any one family in an area? Yes.
Did it lead to Twisted having to suicide as a baby more because he had a search for a nice set for his next video? Yes.
Did people love living in new areas life after life? Yes.

It echoed reality more and the history of our species; spreading around the globe, each new family, each new location, the seed of a new culture.

Please stop the artificial confinement.
Comment out the code that keeps people from having kids due to distance from a family well.

Struggling with children while out gathering iron or looking for mouflon was exciting. It was a real challenge to prepare for, keeping track of sources of food as you traverse the map, knowing that at any moment you could be forced to backtrack, child in hand, so you and they didn't starve. Making the decision to carry on the hunt for the animal, or the iron, knowing you could not hold your child, juggling responsibilities that crucial, that was important. That was interesting. That was the kind of thing that kept people alive and kept them coming back to live and live again. Showing those players, who, hours earlier had abandoned me under similar conditions, that it was possible to juggle 2, 3, even 5 kids back from an iron hunt with a basket of iron as well.

That was my chance to inspire greatness.

That was evidence of love, commitment and courage.

Did I fucking die 20 times for every one successful attempt at that? Probably.
But the success was worth a million attempts.

No feeling has been as rewarding.
Allowing for that situation was the most right thing you ever did in game design.
For the rest of that life people treated me as a legend, those children especially.
For the rest of that day, I had something to be proud of, something that really felt real.
Those choices awoke great primal instincts in me that made me understand, that gave the slightest hint, of what it must have been like for ancient people to make tough decisions.

The value of life, of people, that came from those moments; there is just nothing like it in the game anymore, Jason.
You catered to whiny boys and girls who thought they were helpless in those situations, rather than letting me teach them by example that they weren't. That they are not helpless. You stopped me, from teaching them how powerful they could truly become.

And that was before coordinate and zoom mods.

When the game was a great challenge, with great rewards.

Why would you let whiners like Dodge, Twisted and Tarr take that away from me?
Design Club, or whatever you call it, was a mistake.
You should have stuck with the game you knew in your heart was good.

Even as the leaves fell,
and thousands of seeds were cast into the wind,
knowing there was a chance not one of them may find purchase,
you should have allowed the casting to continue.

Where the seeds fell on infertile soil, the land became that much more forgiving, to future casts.

Free the people to travel and populate the lands, once again.
I beg you.

Dodge · 2021-05-04 18:59:48

Morti wrote:

Why would you let whiners like Dodge, Twisted and Tarr take that away from me?

Yeah you have no idea what you are talking about if you think any of us was fine with that, the current game is garbage and all your endless lines of crying did nothing to change that, hopefully Jason will understand that forcing and restricting players to one narrow way instead of giving them choices is not the way to go, why not try to understand what he's trying to achieve instead of being extremly close minded and refusing possible situations only because they can bring a negative outcome that players have to manage some way instead of being some fake utopia where everyone has an overabundance of everything except an actual purpose and an interesting experience.

Spoonwood · 2021-05-04 19:59:00

Dodge wrote:

Yeah you have no idea what you are talking about if you think any of us was fine with that

Morti requested:

Morti wrote:

Please stop the artificial confinement.

You wanted a finite map Dodge. Recently you've still advocated for such. You have said that you wanted a bigger map than any of the rifts alright. Even a 20k map would be an artificial confinement, since players once ventured to donkey town beyond that length over several generations. You keep on asking for a form of artificial confinement. Morti wanted an end to artificial confinement in the game.

Dodge wrote:

why not try to understand what he's trying to achieve instead of being extremly close minded and refusing possible situations only because they can bring a negative outcome that players have to manage some way instead of being some fake utopia where everyone has an overabundance of everything except an actual purpose and an interesting experience.

Refusing a possible situation which can only bring a negative outcome is intelligent. There is no sense in anyone subjecting themselves to only pain or only suffering. Apparently, you have asked Morti to endure a pure negative state. That is a mark of a sadist.

There never has been a state of the game where every player has had an overabundance of everything. Not for one single day. New players don't live to 60 because they can't find food, don't have enough safety, or don't have the preparation with respect to how to survive in the game. Thus, your talk about a "fake utopia" creates a strawman position of what Morti was talking about.

Also, read again or for the first time Dodge:

Morti wrote:

Struggling with children while out gathering iron or looking for mouflon was exciting. It was a real challenge to prepare for, keeping track of sources of food as you traverse the map, knowing that at any moment you could be forced to backtrack, child in hand, so you and they didn't starve. Making the decision to carry on the hunt for the animal, or the iron, knowing you could not hold your child, juggling responsibilities that crucial, that was important. That was interesting. That was the kind of thing that kept people alive and kept them coming back to live and live again. Showing those players, who, hours earlier had abandoned me under similar conditions, that it was possible to juggle 2, 3, even 5 kids back from an iron hunt with a basket of iron as well.
That was my chance to inspire greatness.
That was evidence of love, commitment and courage.
Did I fucking die 20 times for every one successful attempt at that? Probably.

Not a single word in what Morti wrote suggests for a moment an overabundance of everything. If there were such an overabundance of everything, how would Morti, by his own estimate, have a success rate of 1 out of 20?

Dodge · 2021-05-04 20:10:40

Still the same ol' Spoon...

DiscardedSlinky · 2021-05-05 02:25:21

You guys go on your own tangents too much. None of this has anything to do with Eve placements.

Jason I hope you find a solution that won't lock iron from people.

Morti · 2021-05-05 19:43:28

Spoonwood wrote:

If there were such an overabundance of everything, how would Morti, by his own estimate, have a success rate of 1 out of 20?

Woah there Spoon, I was being humble. My actual success rate was a lot higher with one or two children. I was thinking of the most exciting times when the game dumped 3+, sometimes 10+ children on me while I was out looking for milkweed or seeds that our families life hinged on. A lot of times it was just a better home than the one that my mother had started in.

I looked for that place to start, because I wanted her to survive, and because I knew, that at any moment, I too could start having children, and I didn't want to subject them to the confines of the 3 berry bushes and 1 pond that my mother had brought me up in.

We could have always found a better location, that's what going out and exploring as a child was about; the chance for a greater home. That was the MOST possibly rewarding thing I could give to all of my mother's decedents. That was where courage and compassion paid off. And if I had a child in that process of exploration, all the better. They would be born to me and I would be there sole teacher in that moment. I was setting an example for every single person that played the game and, I was, undoubtedly, the most successful person at that job, as I experienced, day after day, ten hours a day, on average, for fucking months, what it was like to be born a child to every player in the game and to be the mother of every player of the game.

In short, I was the game.

If your choice of home location wasn't good enough for me, guess what, I found better, nearly every, fucking, day. Every day of my life, MY REAL LIFE, I was making this game better for everyone. Jason has all the numbers, he could share them with you if he really wanted to, he could tell you just how much traveling I did, how many children lived in my arms, and just who the cowards were who abandoned their kids, or their mothers.

Jason, you have my permission, my encouragement, to dredge up those numbers and compare me to the average player, compare me to Twisted, Dodge or even Tarr, and tell the world how much I failed or succeeded, how much food I produced, how many new homes I started, how many families I was successful at Eveing to any degree of longevity. Or how many families died, as a result of me being the final woman and not, managing to find or create, a good enough place for them to call home.

And any of you that want to be compared to me, I suggest you give Jason the same permission to dredge up your numbers and compare yourself to me. Let's compare who abandoned the most babies, never picking them up, or who abandoned their mothers by moving away from their coordinates. That data, exists. Compare the the x and y coordinate changes of the mothers compared to the children. Let's see just how many times all of you ran away from your mothers as babies, or left your babies in the dirt, as mothers. There you will see the disgusting behaviors of people like Twisted, for certain, and, I suspect, the habits of the other people that I failed to inspire to be great players, as well as, perhaps, even those who's habits I changed. Those who I encouraged to work harder and harder, to provide for every family they found themselves in, no matter how rich or poor their starting conditions.

Do it.

Give Jason the permission to put all your data on display. I will show you where you were greatest, and where you can be greater.

And if that ain't fucking interesting, I don't know what is.

Let's each have our own baseball cards, and see who is the Black Lotus of the game and who is the Swamp.

I'll even give you a freebie, have engines created be a stat. Cuz just about every one of you beats me there.

Dodge · 2021-05-05 20:12:46

What an achievement... give that man a cookie

Morti · 2021-05-05 20:23:30

Dodge wrote:

What an achievement... give that man a cookie

I'd split it with you.

Dodge · 2021-05-05 20:37:08

Morti wrote:

Dodge wrote:
What an achievement... give that man a cookie
I'd split it with you.

Oh no, i "only" wasted 300 something hours on this mediocre game, i'll take a few crumbles, you're clearly way past that, to the point of forgetting that it's a game and calling others disgusting because they dont play the way you want them to.

Morti · 2021-05-05 20:40:53

Dodge wrote:

Morti wrote:
Dodge wrote:
What an achievement... give that man a cookie
I'd split it with you.
Oh no, i "only" wasted 300 something hours on this mediocre game, i'll take a few crumbles, you're clearly way past that, to the point of forgetting that it's a game and calling others disgusting because they dont play the way you want them to.

I love you.
This is not a game.

300 hours is a fair amount of time. I can only imagine what you accomplished in all that time.
I wonder how many times we've held each other in our arms, and didn't even know who we really were.

I love you now, more than ever.

Dodge · 2021-05-05 20:48:52

Morti wrote:

I love you.
This is not a game.
300 hours is a fair amount of time. I can only imagine what you accomplished in all that time.
I wonder how many times we've held each other in our arms, and didn't even know who we really were.
I love you now, more than ever.

I know it's hard to resist my charm and incredibly good looks but i'm sorry to disapoint you i dont roll on that side of the road if you catch my drift.

Morti · 2021-05-05 20:55:12

Dodge wrote:

Morti wrote:
I love you.
This is not a game.
300 hours is a fair amount of time. I can only imagine what you accomplished in all that time.
I wonder how many times we've held each other in our arms, and didn't even know who we really were.
I love you now, more than ever.
I know it's hard to resist my charm and incredibly good looks but i'm sorry to disapoint you i dont roll on that side of the road if you catch my drift.

Do you have a wife or a girlfriend?
Any children?

Morti · 2021-05-05 20:57:13

You love them more than anything?
Do they love you, more than anything?

Dodge · 2021-05-05 21:10:23

And also yeah it's a game, not even a good one, a game with a lot of potential, an interesting concept and some good parts but overall it's far from what it could be and even if it was as good as it could be or even better and give you an incredible experience it would still be a game, yes on some level games are part of real life, what is not part of real life since you're living it?, that's a philosophical question, but when you spend days on it and lose track of reality that's called a problem.

DestinyCall · 2021-05-05 21:25:20

I don't have any kids, but I do have dogs.

Pretty sure one of my dogs loves me more than anything. She is such a good girl. Tries so hard to do the right thing, even when she can't understand my strange human ways.

My other dog loves bacon more than anything. I can respect that. Bacon is hella delicious. Hard to win against bacon.

Morti · 2021-05-05 22:05:01

Dodge wrote:

And also yeah it's a game, not even a good one, a game with a lot of potential, an interesting concept and some good parts but overall it's far from what it could be and even if it was as good as it could be or even better and give you an incredible experience it would still be a game, yes on some level games are part of real life, what is not part of real life since you're living it?, that's a philosophical question, but when you spend days on it and lose track of reality that's called a problem.

This forum is not a game.
You and I, discussing it, is not a game.
My feelings for people like you, are not a game.
Your feelings for yourself, are not a game.

I see the game as a subset of reality. What occurs in it, happening in reality; people caring for each other, providing for each other's characters, gaining respect for one another as they work together.

It has been so refreshing, to play this game with you and the others. To finally have a game where I feel like caring, doesn't just matter, but is the focus. I flooded guild banks with my best goods in World of Warcraft, playing to make others better. It was nothing like this.
In UO, I hunted PKs, recalling to nearby towns to inform people of who was online and where they were hanging out, it wasn't as rewarding as holding a child in my arms, or even being held by a mother, in One Hour One Life.

Nothing, no game, has been as rewarding as this.
No digital experience, meant so much.
And I felt that same feeling, resonating in my mothers and children, so often, that I knew how meaningful this opportunity was for them, as well.

I watched, as men nearly twice my age, cried playing this game on Twitch.

I saw it, in the faces of women from Korea, that this was something special.

I've read nearly 100 articles across the web of personal accounts with this, not in regards to the game, but in regards to the feelings the people playing experienced, because of the opportunity it afforded them, to be dependent once again on the compassion of another person for their life. To feel it, once immersed.

I've felt it. Thousands of times.

I have no doubt you've felt it too, creeping up on you like the warmth of a fire across your skin.

It's pretty obvious you've tried to dismiss that feeling and instead just want to see the game as another survival crafting game with the potential to be, what, another war simulator? I know you'd like that. There was a time I liked games like that too. But I know better now. It's pretty obvious the adrenaline from games like Warcraft, Quake, Goldeneye, Streetfighter 2... that feeling you get, all those neurotransmitters, they are nothing like the warmth of oxytocin (not oxycontin, -tocin), or any of the other NTs you produce when you are in love.

The more it hit me, the more I realized how much it was missing in my life, and how much better everyone's life would be if only they produced more of it. If only they had reasons to do so. The game is an encourager to find those reasons, in our daily lives.

I have told so many people, so many things I otherwise wouldn't have had the courage to do so, if it weren't for my experience with each of you. I work my way, casually, but gradually, to the point where I can tell people how much I value them. I'm not the kind of person to just come up to you and say "I love you." in real life. I'm a pretty big guy with a fairly imposing build, I know that would scare people, and that's the last thing I want Dodge, is for you to be afraid, of anything, let alone me. Let alone any member of this community. But don't leave alone, people in your real life. Don't leave your friends, or family, alone.

Be there for them.

They always need someone. They could always use, someone, and who better in your mind, than you?

You can tell them you love them in every way, simply, by being in their lives.
Make them a meal.
Clean their yard.
Share their living room with them.
And when the time is right, hold them in your arms and say what you really want to say. Let them know how much you appreciate them in your life
and how much you appreciate the opportunity to be in theirs.

No situation is so bad that a visit can't amend.
In those cases, the smallest effort has the most power.
You need to be willing to make it.

I want you to understand how important it is that people care about you.
And just imagine how much of an impact you can have on others by being that person in their lives.

And I encourage you to start with the most difficult case. Make the smallest gesture.
Just remind them, that you are still alive, and let them know you care.

Help us to make our lives better.
Let them know you care.

Dodge · 2021-05-06 04:45:58

Morti wrote:

It's pretty obvious you've tried to dismiss that feeling and instead just want to see the game as another survival crafting game with the potential to be, what, another war simulator? I know you'd like that. There was a time I liked games like that too. But I know better now.

Again you have no idea what you are talking about, i dont want this game to be a "war simulator", wars happened in real life for various reasons but they dont happen in the game because it's incomplete it lacks depth to it, there's a whole part of it that isnt there, and if it was there, wether or not the players respond to the situations in front of them by going at war or by finding another way is up to them.

I want the players to make choices even tough ones, to make these decisions, to try to think about the different solutions, but right now those situations just dont exist in the game.

Right now it's just a very linear and repetitive crafting game, make the same objects all the time because it's the only way to respond to that situation and go in that one single direction that is the only right one, not much thinking required, as long as you craft fast you should be good, families die without any consequences and without pretty much anyone noticing or caring too much about it and new ones just pop out to replace them in a never ending cycle.

I guess it's better like that for now, if death of a lineage mattered and it wasn't a seamless cycle new players would realise how empty the game is, but now they are caught in the loop so it gives them the ilusion that it leads to something.

It's cool that you enjoy the parenting aspect of the game but there's much more to it or at least there's supposed to be more to it...

kundarsa · 2021-05-10 17:04:58

jasonrohrer wrote:

And thus one player, by walking far away in any direction and starting a primary homeland, can sway Eve placement so much.

you say any direction as if this would "sway eve placement" east or west.

That is the X coordinates of births without a parent life id# that were born on 4 specific Y coordinates which is some 99% of the eve's.

when i look at april 11th alone with the desert family having eve's being born east of prior eve's i see the eve life 4122117 was born at 1618157427 with the east most coordinates -13385.
the east most traveling players are 4122806 4122899 4122869 with the earliest time stamp of 1618174618 which was born after the eve.
When looking at east traveling players who are dessert family before the east traveling eve all find lives;
4119082 traveled 4031 tiles died at -15634 which is west of eve
4121525 traveled 2774 tiles died at -16883 which is west of eve

The only players that traveled farther east (and not by much) then the eve are
4122096
4117871
4121789
4118636
but none of them were born in the desert band

i have no info on players traveling east and then returning west before death.

life 4122117 died before the eve and east of the eve but i think was a child of the eve. No other lives i found could have "sway Eve placement".

the first eve to be pulled east was life 4121598 born at X coordinate -12032 in jungle band with a timestamp of 1618135858.
out of players born before this eve X coordinates -15773 was the farthest east death for that day.
the prior day was life 4118636 a white male that traveled 5096 tiles and died at X coordinates -13346 and Y coordinates 1562
the second farthest east death life 4120614 died at X-15614, Y431 which is short of the eve spawn after traveling 2823 tiles east

the eve's are broken for some other reason, not controlled by the players, but by your code. please fix ive been annoyed by this for too long. i do understand you got RL going on right now but when you choose to return to work i would like this fixed first.

after which i would like buttered garlic bread as a use for garlic. garlic is litter.
and if i watch a mother starve me and my 3 sisters in the middle of the wilderness while laughing and saying death to the family i should be able to "curse my mom" cause that is an uncursable grief at the moment.

Last edited by kundarsa (2021-05-10 17:34:29)

Morti · 2021-05-10 23:21:58

Dodge wrote:

Right now it's just...

You have the tools to teach, you have the tools to plan, you could help to make more wonderful cities than we've ever seen before.

You won't get cooperation without compassion, or at least, it won't be as rewarding unless we do it as a family, as a collective; a community, a, cohesive organism.

Your posts lead to vitriol, why is that Dodge?

Where does that hate come from, that is the root cause of this problem, for you, and each of us. What leads to you not caring? What leads to Americans not caring for each other? What leads to the people of the west, not caring for one another? What leads to people of Earth, not caring for one another?

These are the aspects of the game that you gloss over, that you fail to address, that you fail

This is why Design Club failed, because people failed, to deal with you. You, Dodge.

I need to help you. Where is this fuel coming from in your past that is destroying the game's community?

It is an attitude, Dodge, we all recognize it when we read your posts, but it's rare that I see people trying to address it; to talk to you, to try and save you from it, to save ourselves from it.

We each have passion Dodge, the sense of a patheon that we must act upon. But it is the will to act, again and again; to see our mission to completion, which is the thing which requires the most determination. You are determined to state the failures of "the game" time and time again. As if Jason is every player but you. Where are your plans, Dodge? Where are your blueprints for the town of the future? What are your ambitions for the family of the future?

While Jason is focusing on the needs of his real family, what are you doing for your family, Dodge?

I want people to recognize what this character you are playing here on the forum is causing. The problem of talking about you, rather than to you. We are all guilty, to some extent, of talking around one another; of talking past one another. I don't to do that, Dodge. I want to talk to you. I want to listen. I want to take all the weight off your shoulders so that the ambition child it was heaped upon, is free to play, and explore the world, once again.

Don't rush to reply to this. We have time. Read and reread this post and if you are sure you want to defend the person you have become, if the desire to just state that I am wrong, rather than address the most personal aspects of my post, is too strong, then state that again. Use the hate to push the keys once again. Afterall, if you feel you must bear the weight, then others should bear it as well, shouldn't they? Isn't that how it feels?

I really don't want to cripple you, Dodge, I want to help you heal. I want to kill the tiger stalking you through your life. I want to illuminate the darkness behind you, so that when you look back, you can see a clear coast, and when you look ahead, you see open arms eager to embrace you. We don't have to be strong, alone, when it's obvious we can be stronger together.

--

Do you understand why I love this game, Dodge? It's not because of the contents, it's the opportunity to spread love, that is so important. To feel it from others and to spread it to others, and what better love than the love of ones family? And what greater family, than all of life? When you have this idea, that all of life is your family, it goes against so much that we have been taught. The competitiveness, the divisiveness, the persecution and the enslavement. All the ways that animals take advantage of one another, humanity included, the ways we contribute to each others suffering, we can avoid it. We can negate it. The balance between light and dark does not apply to good and evil, it doesn't apply to life. Everything alive is good. Including you. If it's one belief I have, it is that all of life is a beautiful thing. The light and dark thing, that's just physics and astronomy. If we lived in another kind of star system, a binary for instance, it wouldn't be a 50-50 thing, and so many of the things we try to make seem that way, would never even have become a thing.

I want you to see that and I'd like, for you to spot people misapplying these same sorts of dichotomies. I'd like you to stop applying them yourself but I know that just by saying that, makes you want to consider putting your ideas on defense, which is exactly what I'm talking about. See that everything we do, is, working together. Everything Spoon says to you, he's just saying to himself. Everything everyone says, is just, Earth, talking to itself.

I really want to talk more with you Dodge, but even more, I find myself caring what anyone could be reading into this, anyone from anywhere, anytime from now into the future. So, it's very difficult to keep thinking like this, but to want to narrow my address to you. I need a reaction from you, Dodge. I'd love to be arguing with you about this stuff, face to face. I'm sure we'd treat each other, these reactions we have to one another, with a lot more desire for insight, into what the other person really wants to say.

Sometimes I wish I'd said more in the past, to maintain, and help grow, the things I found most valuable from the experience of playing this game with people, all over the world. I didn't, because I enjoyed doing it so much. So as people were expressing their feelings about Jason's choices, about the game mechanics, or about each other, I was missing out on throwing my hat in those conversations. And I'm sorry that I didn't say more. And I'm sorry I didn't plan more, that, I didn't share my desires, and my discoveries, more often with each of you. I'm sorry for the times I wasn't listening, when those of you here on the forums were making your complaints about things. I read most of them. I just, hoped, you'd sort things out yourselves. And like each of you, every one of us, does, I let some coals I picked up along the way, stick to me, and smolder. Many times I let those embers burn me, yet I did not produce the water, I didn't find it, to put them out.

Then, there were times I did try, and I certainly tried to put them out with the wrong chemical.

Analogies. What else am I supposed to use?

I just want a chance to care for people, and to be cared for in return, in a video game setting, I suppose, because I see it lacking, between people in reality. I see it falling off the tree, like dying leaves, and I just want to keep it alive. I really do just want all of life to be immortal and never stop growing, but it's really weird tying that message into every aspect of life, so, here I am, talking to you, seeing you as the source, in the change of the weather, like, some kind of characteristic of a god. But there really are no gods, just us. Us, and the tilt of the Earth. Us, and us, revolving around the Sun. And air, and all the fluids, spreading out when they get warm, and contracting when they get cold... except water, that stuff is evil. It doesn't obey the laws. It doesn't care, for our conventions.

Did Jason tell you he wanted friends too? That he wanted to be, friends?

I'll bet he has. I'll bet he's said that to just about every, one, of you, that has ever questioned him, or made an argument with him, or complained to him, personally, about choices he was making, for the game, or, even more interestingly, choices he was choosing not to make. Isn't that puzzling? You'd think if he was trying to be a good game designer, that he'd be implementing more of our suggestions, wouldn't you? Didn't it make you wonder, when you felt an idea was really good, but yet, it didn't ring the same way it did for him, as it did for you?

That, is why love is so important, Dodge. Trust, understanding, symbiosis... grogging. These are all offshoots of love. These things, and so many more, they all travel along with one another, like molecules of air in a hurricane. A Great Red Spot, around Jupiter. A planet. A star. A galaxy, itself.

Design Club could have become a company.

It still might. If you could just work together, like gusts of winds, moving together, in the same direction.
But it has to be a good direction. And in order for you to be a storm, you have to be, unusual.
A person, is not so unusual, when they are compared alone, to 8 billion other people. But we are an unusual planet, when you compare us to any other. Maybe, try seeing what Jason has done with this game, as a sort of butterfly in the chaos theory. The drop of water, that hollows the stone. And we understand, that we ourselves, are each one of those drops as well, one of those butterflies, one of those people, and someday, one of those planets, one of those fractions, of the universe as a whole.

Things can be anyway we want to make them, if our gears meet together. But how would we know, if we didn't care enough to look, where they meet?

If you want people, to enjoy finding the best interpretation of what Jason's reasonings are in the future, for the game he's made in the past, well you have to give him a good reason to make it.
A good reason.

Those are the words I'm going to end on.
A good reason, Dodge.

A good reason.

Be, a good reason.

Dodge · 2021-05-11 13:01:53

Morti wrote:

You have the tools to teach, you have the tools to plan, you could help to make more wonderful cities than we've ever seen before.

I'm not really interested in the city building part of this game, making good looking walls, kitchen etc, especially since the village you make will be gone in 2-3 days.

Teaching is interesting every now and then but all the time, no.

Is this supposed to motivate me to play the game?

Morti wrote:

You won't get cooperation without compassion, or at least, it won't be as rewarding unless we do it as a family, as a collective; a community, a, cohesive organism.

Ok cool... so what? Yes it's also a game about cooperation, what's your point?

Morti wrote:

Your posts lead to vitriol, why is that Dodge?

I'm sorry you see every slight "negative" comment the same as literal poison, you're very sensitive.

Morti wrote:

Where does that hate come from, that is the root cause of this problem, for you, and each of us. What leads to you not caring? What leads to Americans not caring for each other? What leads to the people of the west, not caring for one another? What leads to people of Earth, not caring for one another?

Again i'm sorry you have such a negative perception of the world.

Morti wrote:

These are the aspects of the game that you gloss over, that you fail to address, that you fail

I'm not really focused on this aspect of the game at the moment, i think it already does a pretty job and it's one of the few good parts of the game, could be better sure but there's more important aspects to improve that are in a worst place.

Morti wrote:

This is why Design Club failed, because people failed, to deal with you. You, Dodge.

Yes i'm the BIG BAD WOLF i'm the sole responsible for everything wrong with this game

Morti wrote:

I need to help you. Where is this fuel coming from in your past that is destroying the game's community?

Yes, i'm destroying this whole community, tremble mortals before the coming of the end.

Morti wrote:

It is an attitude, Dodge, we all recognize it when we read your posts, but it's rare that I see people trying to address it; to talk to you, to try and save you from it, to save ourselves from it.

YES! Oh please Morti SAVE ME, i beg you, pleeeeeeeeeease save me from wathever you just said.

Morti wrote:

We each have passion Dodge, the sense of a patheon that we must act upon. But it is the will to act, again and again; to see our mission to completion, which is the thing which requires the most determination. You are determined to state the failures of "the game" time and time again. As if Jason is every player but you. Where are your plans, Dodge? Where are your blueprints for the town of the future? What are your ambitions for the family of the future?

Too long to explain, try to understand Jason's vision of the game to recreate human civilisations and all their interactions but on a different scale, kinda like a caricature of what our history would be but not really one.

If you're talking abour my ambitions for families and towns in the current game, it's none, that part of the game is currently not interesting, families dying over and over again without it mattering, new families to replace them, same for towns, there's no continuity, no long term interest.

Morti wrote:

While Jason is focusing on the needs of his real family, what are you doing for your family, Dodge?

None of your business

Morti wrote:

I want people to recognize what this character you are playing here on the forum is causing. The problem of talking about you, rather than to you. We are all guilty, to some extent, of talking around one another; of talking past one another. I don't to do that, Dodge. I want to talk to you. I want to listen. I want to take all the weight off your shoulders so that the ambition child it was heaped upon, is free to play, and explore the world, once again.

That's cool but unless you have something to say about the game i'm not interested in talking to you, no offence, also nobody else is talking about me except you, living in your head rent free much?

Morti wrote:

Don't rush to reply to this. We have time. Read and reread this post and if you are sure you want to defend the person you have become, if the desire to just state that I am wrong, rather than address the most personal aspects of my post, is too strong, then state that again. Use the hate to push the keys once again. Afterall, if you feel you must bear the weight, then others should bear it as well, shouldn't they? Isn't that how it feels?

I'm really sorry having a regular conversation bears so much weight to you, must be painful on a day to day basis, also that you see every slight "negativity" as something absolutly terrible and amplified into something horrific, very dramatic, from my own experience the ones that try to ignore or supress that negativity end up the most fucked up, of course there's better ways than others to deal with it but tha't an other story.

Morti wrote:

I really don't want to cripple you, Dodge, I want to help you heal. I want to kill the tiger stalking you through your life. I want to illuminate the darkness behind you, so that when you look back, you can see a clear coast, and when you look ahead, you see open arms eager to embrace you. We don't have to be strong, alone, when it's obvious we can be stronger together.

That's so sweet of you, very very sweet, but i didn't ask... Also you're very smart but taking any guidance on improvement from you... yeah.

Maybe if one day i want to be a better writer or something i'll ask but probably not.

Morti wrote:

Do you understand why I love this game, Dodge? It's not because of the contents, it's the opportunity to spread love, that is so important. To feel it from others and to spread it to others, and what better love than the love of ones family? And what greater family, than all of life? When you have this idea, that all of life is your family, it goes against so much that we have been taught. The competitiveness, the divisiveness, the persecution and the enslavement. All the ways that animals take advantage of one another, humanity included, the ways we contribute to each others suffering, we can avoid it. We can negate it. The balance between light and dark does not apply to good and evil, it doesn't apply to life. Everything alive is good. Including you. If it's one belief I have, it is that all of life is a beautiful thing. The light and dark thing, that's just physics and astronomy. If we lived in another kind of star system, a binary for instance, it wouldn't be a 50-50 thing, and so many of the things we try to make seem that way, would never even have become a thing.

Not gonna lie that sounds like some LSD or shroom type of shit, we are all one etc... But at the end of the day we still need to eat and drink to survive and what happens if there's no food but your neighbour has it but doesn't have the same philosophy of "we are all from the same family" what are you going to do?

Let yourself die?

Steal it from him?

Or find another solution?

You have a very innocent point of view, dont get me wrong there's good outcomes and bad outcomes, good solutions and bad solutions, but that's precisely the interesting part and what would be interesting to have in the game and players to make these choices, your point of view is more like let's just all hug each other until we die of starvation.

Morti wrote:

I want you to see that and I'd like, for you to spot people misapplying these same sorts of dichotomies. I'd like you to stop applying them yourself but I know that just by saying that, makes you want to consider putting your ideas on defense, which is exactly what I'm talking about. See that everything we do, is, working together. Everything Spoon says to you, he's just saying to himself. Everything everyone says, is just, Earth, talking to itself.

So everyone is just talking to themselves, hmmm yes.

Morti wrote:

I really want to talk more with you Dodge, but even more, I find myself caring what anyone could be reading into this, anyone from anywhere, anytime from now into the future. So, it's very difficult to keep thinking like this, but to want to narrow my address to you. I need a reaction from you, Dodge. I'd love to be arguing with you about this stuff, face to face. I'm sure we'd treat each other, these reactions we have to one another, with a lot more desire for insight, into what the other person really wants to say.

Talking about the universe and space for hours and hours... no thanks

Morti wrote:

Sometimes I wish I'd said more in the past, to maintain, and help grow, the things I found most valuable from the experience of playing this game with people, all over the world. I didn't, because I enjoyed doing it so much. So as people were expressing their feelings about Jason's choices, about the game mechanics, or about each other, I was missing out on throwing my hat in those conversations. And I'm sorry that I didn't say more. And I'm sorry I didn't plan more, that, I didn't share my desires, and my discoveries, more often with each of you. I'm sorry for the times I wasn't listening, when those of you here on the forums were making your complaints about things. I read most of them. I just, hoped, you'd sort things out yourselves. And like each of you, every one of us, does, I let some coals I picked up along the way, stick to me, and smolder. Many times I let those embers burn me, yet I did not produce the water, I didn't find it, to put them out.

Never too late.

Morti wrote:

Then, there were times I did try, and I certainly tried to put them out with the wrong chemical.
Analogies. What else am I supposed to use?
I just want a chance to care for people, and to be cared for in return, in a video game setting, I suppose, because I see it lacking, between people in reality. I see it falling off the tree, like dying leaves, and I just want to keep it alive. I really do just want all of life to be immortal and never stop growing, but it's really weird tying that message into every aspect of life, so, here I am, talking to you, seeing you as the source, in the change of the weather, like, some kind of characteristic of a god. But there really are no gods, just us. Us, and the tilt of the Earth. Us, and us, revolving around the Sun. And air, and all the fluids, spreading out when they get warm, and contracting when they get cold... except water, that stuff is evil. It doesn't obey the laws. It doesn't care, for our conventions.

Ok

Morti wrote:

Did Jason tell you he wanted friends too? That he wanted to be, friends?

Dont think so

Morti wrote:

I'll bet he has. I'll bet he's said that to just about every, one, of you, that has ever questioned him, or made an argument with him, or complained to him, personally, about choices he was making, for the game, or, even more interestingly, choices he was choosing not to make. Isn't that puzzling? You'd think if he was trying to be a good game designer, that he'd be implementing more of our suggestions, wouldn't you? Didn't it make you wonder, when you felt an idea was really good, but yet, it didn't ring the same way it did for him, as it did for you?

Puzzling? Not really, if he was implementing every suggestion that he was proposed without even thinking about it then he would definitly be a bad designer/developper.

Morti wrote:

That, is why love is so important, Dodge. Trust, understanding, symbiosis... grogging. These are all offshoots of love. These things, and so many more, they all travel along with one another, like molecules of air in a hurricane. A Great Red Spot, around Jupiter. A planet. A star. A galaxy, itself.

Ah yes the universe and all it's molecules.

Morti wrote:

Design Club could have become a company.
It still might. If you could just work together, like gusts of winds, moving together, in the same direction.
But it has to be a good direction. And in order for you to be a storm, you have to be, unusual.
A person, is not so unusual, when they are compared alone, to 8 billion other people. But we are an unusual planet, when you compare us to any other. Maybe, try seeing what Jason has done with this game, as a sort of butterfly in the chaos theory. The drop of water, that hollows the stone. And we understand, that we ourselves, are each one of those drops as well, one of those butterflies, one of those people, and someday, one of those planets, one of those fractions, of the universe as a whole.
Things can be anyway we want to make them, if our gears meet together. But how would we know, if we didn't care enough to look, where they meet?

Developping this game is not easy lots of complicated parts, havent seen you suggest anything interesting anyway...

Easy to say "if we all worked together" "in the right direction" but doing it is another story, maybe you could be the one making all of us go in the right direction, the leader.

Morti wrote:

If you want people, to enjoy finding the best interpretation of what Jason's reasonings are in the future, for the game he's made in the past, well you have to give him a good reason to make it.
A good reason.
Those are the words I'm going to end on.
A good reason, Dodge.
A good reason.
Be, a good reason.

Yes, be good my son, our destiny is in your hands.

Morti · 2021-05-14 02:02:41

Dodge wrote:

...

In time I will choose my response.
Thank you, for yours.

For now I want some fresh air and activity.
I want to get my barely dry boots, muddy, again.

I love you, Dodge.

DiscardedSlinky · 2021-05-25 08:55:37

You guys should just dm each other. No one comes here to read novels by people going off on their own tangents unrelated to the post.

Morti · 2021-05-25 20:04:30

DiscardedSlinky wrote:

No one comes here.

Thanks Slinky.
Maybe if the posts the rest of you made were more substantive?
Share some strategies? Some thoughts about the game? Some genuine experiences?
Maybe don't just come here to complain about complaining or a lack of complaints?

Cite me some of your proudest, most productive posts, and I'll take note.

Tangents are parts of the circle. Where they contact is integral to it's function.

A DM would be besides the point, we don't care about each other's opinions so much as we want to influence the opinions of others. Dodge is one person, the rest of you are infinitely more people.
I am just one person.

You see this with Dodge's post, they are dismissive; they don't care, as much, about everyone else as they do themselves.
When they say things like "The game is boring." "That is boring." "It's not interesting." what they should be saying is "I am bored of the game." "That is boring to me." "I am not interested." but they don't want to admit that, they want to assume that their opinions are statements of fact that are ubiquitously felt by all people. If they made the comment, "I'm bored of that." they might not feel as justified in their follow up statements "...therefore things need to be changed." because they distinguished themselves from anyone else not them.

If they were more clear about their own personal opinion, then we could address them directly and it would save a lot of vaccinating against the spread of frustration they are host to, but it's hard, it's hard to admit to yourself the problem is, sometimes, just in you. So we spread our problems to each other, to justify our own unhappiness, misery and boredom.
Dodge does not want to own their problem, they want to share it, freely. It is very much like a disease and Dodge is just the host.

Eve placement isn't the biggest issue with this game right now, it's not the biggest problem keeping the game from being more interesting or attractive. The attitude that so many of us have passed around, like a dirty bottle of wine, drinking in each other's sorrows, is the worst problem of all.

I am greatly to blame for it, I have shown anger and frustration with Jason's choices, many times.
I now regret that. It was not the best way to counter his desire to see record of misfortune.
He stated he wanted an interesting game. Then he stated he found murder statistics interesting.
I found that disgusting, given my attachment to the aspects of the game he, apparently finds less interesting.
Like the way people bond, thanks to the game.

Maybe his interest in murder stats, stemmed from that; the juxtaposition of the two elements of the game.

I don't know, I have to go while there is still some light.
Still lots of logs to be moved on my neighbor's property.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5y5Bh8VNCxM

I'm sorry, Slinky.
Forgive us.

One Hour One Life Forums

#1 2021-05-03 15:00:49

Found the issue with Eve placement

#2 2021-05-04 16:01:03

Re: Found the issue with Eve placement

#3 2021-05-04 17:44:03

Re: Found the issue with Eve placement

#4 2021-05-04 18:59:48

Re: Found the issue with Eve placement

#5 2021-05-04 19:59:00

Re: Found the issue with Eve placement

#6 2021-05-04 20:10:40

Re: Found the issue with Eve placement

#7 2021-05-05 02:25:21

Re: Found the issue with Eve placement

#8 2021-05-05 19:43:28

Re: Found the issue with Eve placement

#9 2021-05-05 20:12:46

Re: Found the issue with Eve placement

#10 2021-05-05 20:23:30

Re: Found the issue with Eve placement

#11 2021-05-05 20:37:08

Re: Found the issue with Eve placement

#12 2021-05-05 20:40:53

Re: Found the issue with Eve placement

#13 2021-05-05 20:48:52

Re: Found the issue with Eve placement

#14 2021-05-05 20:55:12

Re: Found the issue with Eve placement

#15 2021-05-05 20:57:13

Re: Found the issue with Eve placement

#16 2021-05-05 21:10:23

Re: Found the issue with Eve placement

#17 2021-05-05 21:25:20

Re: Found the issue with Eve placement

#18 2021-05-05 22:05:01

Re: Found the issue with Eve placement

#19 2021-05-06 04:45:58

Re: Found the issue with Eve placement

#20 2021-05-10 17:04:58

Re: Found the issue with Eve placement

#21 2021-05-10 23:21:58

Re: Found the issue with Eve placement

#22 2021-05-11 13:01:53

Re: Found the issue with Eve placement

#23 2021-05-14 02:02:41

Re: Found the issue with Eve placement

#24 2021-05-25 08:55:37

Re: Found the issue with Eve placement

#25 2021-05-25 20:04:30

Re: Found the issue with Eve placement

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