a multiplayer game of parenting and civilization building
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Someone in Pretty town decided to fence the area in and put follower gates up in multiple places.
The first issue I had was that it was annoying *and time wasting* to try to find which follower gate I could access (new players wouldn't know to just follow the owner, and I had forgotten I could do that in game). That was my initial impression when I first saw it. Later on, it was worse.
The bigger issue lies in that the fencing in idea comes as a dead giveaway to destructive players. They can easily figure out how to block things off once those are up, and it won't take them much time.
If I'm in a town with someone making fences around the town *even with multiple follower gates*, I don't think I have a problem with that player getting exiled and killed. Of course if they can get reasoned with, that would be better. But fenced in towns, not only are boring, but pose problems also.
Last edited by Spoonwood (2021-12-03 01:20:21)
Danish Clinch.
Longtime tutorial player.
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If that player gets killed then your meme score lowers which means you're a bad player. Therefore fences are only used by very good players for very good reasons.
Worlds oldest SID baby.
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Putting a wall around a town with no gates in it is griefing. Putting a wall around a town with multiple gates is not griefing. Blocking all the town's gates is griefing. Making a town with gates that could get blocked by a griefer is not griefing.
Considering how exact you expect others to be in their word choices, shouldn't you hold yourself to the same standards?
Griefing doesn't mean "anything you don't like". It means someone is deliberately harassing other players to cause "grief" and ruin their fun. There must be intent to do harm. Town walls might be annoying and often unnecessary but they are hardly griefing, no matter how much you dislike them.
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If that player gets killed then your meme score lowers which means you're a bad player. Therefore fences are only used by very good players for very good reasons.
Not killing the player doing that might result in lower gene score, since more genetic score relatives might starve by not being able to get to food in time.
It means someone is deliberately harassing other players to cause "grief" and ruin their fun. There must be intent to do harm.
It's an unavoidable consequence of fence structures that people going out of town have to walk for a longer time in a village with a fence (or stone wall for that matter) structure around it. It takes up multiple players time, and for what benefit?
Alright, if you still want to say it's not griefing to make a fence with follower gates structure around a town, it becomes much easier for the town to get blocked off. In other words, making such a structure makes griefing easier. I don't see any sense in making griefing easier ceteris paribus. And again, what benefit comes from such a structure? At minimum, making such a structure makes things more difficult for players inside of the town and is stupid in terms of minimizing the effects of destructive players.
Also, when I heard about such in Pretty town, I said "elder removal". But, come to think of it, I don't recall any grown maples in Pretty town within that fence. Even if there were maples grown, getting rid of all of the branches and shafts coming from a maple tree doesn't sound difficult. Sure, the griefer can easily get caught if chopping up the long shaft used to light the forges or oven. But, if the town already has no exits, getting caught doing such isn't an issue if one destroys them before one gets killed. And then elder removal can easily become impossible due to lack of materials.
At least with fences blocking all of the town's mines, one could go help another town, get iron from some dead town (families tend not to have kerosene these days to do diesel engine mines), and elder removal sounds more feasible. At least if there's still a knife in a town or some iron to make a knife.
Last edited by Spoonwood (2021-12-03 17:33:59)
Danish Clinch.
Longtime tutorial player.
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Fucking lol, I think you upset him.
Spoonie, this novel is all well and good and I don't think anyone is arguing that fences around towns provide a benefit. But that doesn't change the fact that it doesn't meet the definition of griefing, by your own pedantic standards.
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But that doesn't change the fact that it doesn't meet the definition of griefing, by your own pedantic standards.
DestinyCall defined griefing as follows.
It means someone is deliberately harassing other players to cause "grief" and ruin their fun. There must be intent to do harm.
There is no question that a fenced in town with follower gates increases pathing time to get from point A to point B. For example, one can't exit out the sides of town with such a structure in place.
If one makes such a structure deliberately and with intent to make players walk for a longer amount of time, that qualifies as a harm in a game with a strict time limit at best. So, according to Destiny's definition, such a structure *can be* griefing depending on the player's intent who made it.
Danish Clinch.
Longtime tutorial player.
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Literally nobody makes a fence with follower gates to grief. Zero.
Griefers just make a fence with no gates.
At this point you're just arguing because you don't want to be wrong. I expected more respect for the dictionary definition of griefing from a guy who argued in the past that he is a "reasonable" person because he usually has "reasons" for doing things.
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Basically what Neptune said.
I'm pretty strongly anti-fence. I don't like living in walled towns and the ham-fisted way "property fences" were implemented in OHOL is frankly disgusting to me. They pretty much instantly became a new tool for griefing and didn't find a practical value for the village until months later when gate inheritance was linked to genetic score. Even then, they are mostly just used to create a village vault for high value items and secure truck parking, not private property or homsteading, as originally envisioned. And they are frustrating to deal with when someone builds badly, since the fences are so hard to move around and the gates are practically immortal. Plus infinite sticks is super cheesy and they just plain look ugly. In my opinion, fences suck and the game was better without them.
Regardless, using property fences and gates is only griefing if you are using them with malicious intent. If you are building fences just to fuck with people and waste their time ... sure, that is griefing. As a griefer, your goal is to annoy people and fences can be very annoying. Unfortunately, some people actually like fences and build them non-maliciously to protect the village against threats, like bears, bandits, and thieves. Or to keep people out of dangerous areas, like pig/wolf farms.
From reading your posts, I suspect you are drawing a false parallel between griefing and what is good/bad for the village - Griefing is bad for the village, therefore if something is bad for the village it must be griefing. That is simply not true.
Griefing sucks and it hurts the village. But not all sucky behavior is actually caused by real griefers spreading grief on purpose. There are plenty of annoying people who are just playing the game normally in a slightly different or sub-optimal way. Lots of new players do dumb stuff on accident. Some veteran players do dumb stuff out of laziness or a different playstyle or viewpoint.
Long story short, if you don't like fences, talk to me about why fences are bad so I can decide if I agree with your points. Don't try to argue that all fence builders are griefers and only Nazis like fences. That is a terrible argument and actually weakens your position, because it is so blatantly false and hyperbolic.
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. I expected more respect for the dictionary definition of griefing from a guy who argued in the past that he is a "reasonable" person because he usually has "reasons" for doing things.
Where did I argue that I was a reasonable person in general? I don't think I've talked about myself in total.
Also, I did respect Destiny's definition by saying that making such structures could be griefing.
As she says:
If you are building fences just to fuck with people and waste their time ... sure, that is griefing.
Danish Clinch.
Longtime tutorial player.
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In Discord. Recently.
I'm also shocked that I apparently need to point out to you that "building fences just to fuck with people and waste their time" =/= "building fences".
But what else to expect from Spoon logic?
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Honestly, I kind of expected more.
Attention to exact wording and overly-precise definitions are pretty core features of Spoon Logic.
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Maybe they accidentally banned the real Spoonwood and this is the bot.
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I lived either in that town, or one like it. I know the answer to the mystery of why someone fenced in the town with follower gates all over.
The answer is, an evil player was spending his whole life, every life, riding to this town, and removing all items.
The player would load up his horse cart with tools, and steel, and pies, and basically anything not nailed down, and bring each load back to his village over, and over, and over again for hours.
If noobs try to kill him, he just lure them out of town, then kill them.
He would take all the arrows first, so noobs have to attack with knife.
Then he lure them out town pretending to run scared, and shoot them with arrows.
If you managed to get a bow and arrow, he just use his zoom mod to stay out of your range and bring his loot back to his village.
If you killed him or cursed him, he be back next life doing same thing.
Nothing could stop this guy, he was trying to kill towns by looting all items out of the town, and then at some point they starve off.
So the town leader decided on making a fence around town with follower gates to protect the town items from the bad guy.
The bad guy did eventually block off the gates, but the town eventually broke out after figuring out how to do a removal notice on the fence.
And that did take a while because the town was mostly full of noobs.
It is not every day you get an evil player who tries to steal every single item out of a town.
That is why you do not see every day, a fence made around a town with follower gates.
This is a rare defense a town makes against a rare kind of attack. I only ever seen a handful of players ever try to attack towns this way in my lifetime.
So as you can see, the town did not just build fences around town to waste their time vs bears and wolves and boars and thieves.
It was in defense of one evil player in an all out war vs this desperate town fighting for it's survival.
In the end, the town barely survived, and the evil player gave up after sealing up the follower gates and either logged off or attacked a different town after that.
When the attacks stopped, the town took down the whole fence around the town with removal notices.
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