Satisfaction of defending property

DestinyCall · 2019-04-16 22:23:39

I did give another option. The obvious one. You go grab one of those other baskets that you mentioned. There are also many other non-lethal responses. You tried talking, but he might not have noticed you were talking to him. Busy people don't always pay attention or even remember their own names. Trying a little harder to communicate would be the best approach. If his horse cart allowed him to out-pace you, grab the cart or wait until he returns to confront him again. There is also cursing and snowballs, if you really want to get someone's attention. But frankly all of those are too much trouble for one silly basket, when you could easily make a new one and move on with your life.

Your only possible reaction to having a basket stolen is NOT killing the person. Sheesh.

Glassius · 2019-04-17 07:28:48

Why do you support stealing culture?

DestinyCall · 2019-04-17 15:13:08

I support sharing culture. We are all family. My mother is you mother's sister. Family cares about each other and family shares with each other. It is a better way to live. You get more accomplished if you work well with other people and everyone shares the fruits of their labor freely with those who need it.

futurebird · 2019-04-17 15:47:09

So, not long ago Pein killed this girl for wasting the shovel digging graves. Pein and I argued a bit about if that was the right call. I'm not that annoyed about it anymore though. Thing is I ran in to the same person who was digging those graves in two other lives. She told me how she was stabbed "just for trying to burry people properly" and in both cases was very engaged in burying and setting up a grave yard every time someone died. In her view she was killed for no reason and she wasn't going to let that get in the way of her burying people roll play ideas.

In both cases when I said "you are wasting the shovel" (I'm not a fan of digging a bunch of graves either) she got all indignant and told me about how she was stabbed.

It might not have been her both times, but I was able to confirm it was the same person at least once.

My point is killing someone to "teach them a lesson" about bad choices can backfire. What's needed it real communication. When her shovel broke from doing the grave yard thing she wanted me to smith a new one for her. I was like "you need to get more iron first, we don't have much and the town won't survive"

The penny seemed to drop. She got us some more iron and I made her the shovel as promised "Are you going to finish the grave yard?"

"Nah I think we need compost more"

DING DING DING DING we have a winner!

So, is killing an effective way to educate? I don't think so. Is it good for making griefers more cautious? Maybe. I think cursing bothers griefers more since many have high life time scores and being killed isn't that big of a deal, but getting a few curses takes them away from their preferred victims.

If you killed me for taking you basket would I think twice about doing it in the future? I don't think so. Since I'd think "what an over-reaction!" and just go on with whatever I normally do.

That said there may be more to the dynamics of what was going on that isn't coming across, like when someone targets you and becomes a pest (has happened to me) I can understand stabbing them if only to stop the pestering. (I had a kid who would snatch any item I tried to pick up and just did it more thinking it was funny when I said stop and got /mad... thing is when another person told him to stop he did, but if he hadn't I might have shanked him because I couldn't do anything with him getting in the way. So, if it was like that it's not the taking of the basket but the pattern of trying to make someone else miserable that matters.)

pein · 2019-04-17 16:14:47

once i killed a littlehope for a branch

it's not the branch, it's the principle, and the context

full gear at birth but was very dumb it seems, so that made things worse

there was the pit pen era, was one huge pen on a quite far position, full of dung, open, grassland. i was born and nobody gave fuck to give me any clothing, i made my own pack, then planted a big wheat field, and started composting, made a cistern, a brand new hoe, and got a branch for threshing wheat, that was taken like twice to make kindling out of it
the biome was low on branches, there was some further north east

now i had everything ready to start composting, a cart or berries, the carrot there, then comes this little fuck, and takes things one by one
when i tell her to stop she ignores, then when it takes my branch i just snapped and stabbed her ass

sure, i could get new branch, but so does she, it's no excuse that she just born
if cant recognize that it's an enclosed space, a workstation with all items needed there, and she should go out and get her own fricking branch and hoe and bucket and even ignores me, then she deserved it

i seen too many self appointed leaders
one life my sister got a full gear, i had to make my own, made a pen, needed a stanchion kit, went few hundred tiels for a rope for a bucket
and naked noob starts messing around, blocking me from making the stanchion kit for the mine, taking the rope to do some dumb shit
now i stared explaining but she just didn't stop, then i stab her and this sister comes and says why do i kill her, she was useful, got them straw
like it was so dumb, like "oh she went 20 tiles away when i told her to"
people in full gear don't seem to realize that others are cold and stressed about food so they walk around with 4 pies in pack and think they run shi
other guy joined in and told me that im so selfish and stuff, well yeah, sure, i made a pen and got an iron vein , that is so selfish
he basically naked cause gave others the clothes, that nice but you shouldn't do that, make extra and give them that
if you consider a random 3 year old higher skilled than you then give her your pack
i don't see how is better to give my clothes to random kids and lock myself at the camp

it ended up in bloodshed, i took down like 6 people cause they kept coming for revenge, then they convince themselves that im the bad guy for not letting them kill me, then i was like 55 and they still thought they are heroes for killing me when i was standing still talking, i generally will ran off and die behind a far tree

thing is there are some rules which you should hold onto:

if you got a backpack then gather resources from further away
if you got another babies near fire, give them each a piece of clothing, not one full gar, others naked
if you got a knife you need to do the jobs requiring knife, you are not a leader and the knife is not a family treasure
you need to look around what are you taking and from where, others might be using it, dont take it without question
if you fuck up something at least say sorry, or repair it
don't stand on top of others cause you might block them eating
don't stand near others with a weapon
don't follow others if they don't asked you to
if you don't know something then don't make assumptions, especially as a baby or kid
not all kills are bad, and generally the older person is right, not always, but you can spot when someone is shit talking a lot, no reasons just excuses or just insults, if you think you want to ask, then ask normally, no need to insult someone who already killed someone else, you just give a reason to kill you too

lets face it, most kills are for the clothing or power hungry people who got everything for free and they are bored
you can wait until kids are 4-5 year old to see what they do, and give clothes by merit

i kind of understand bear lurer too, cause the first to fall is the spoiled kids who don't even know the simple rule to stand on items
and always some naked boy who gets rid of the bear

sharing means contribution, taking stuff from others right after they make it is just annoying

stabbing at least kept people in line, now that we got curses, the griefers all act innocent, and curse you and pretend you are the fault and most people fall for it
come with proofs or mind your own business

Last edited by pein (2019-04-17 16:16:21)

Glassius · 2019-04-17 21:44:57

DestinyCall wrote:

I support sharing culture.

Sharing is voluntary. It was not only a stealing, but a very mean one. He could empty basket on his own in 5 seconds like me, but he decided to wait 5 seconds untill I do it to take it away.

So, again. Why do you support stealing?

futurebird wrote:

My point is killing someone to "teach them a lesson" about bad choices can backfire. What's needed it real communication.

This is the point. I've requested many times for more ways of communication. Indication someone is typing, hugging, golden speak bubbles, even non lethal violence, a little like a snowball right now. But now, killing is more natural solution.

futurebird wrote:

If you killed me for taking you basket would I think twice about doing it in the future? I don't think so. Since I'd think "what an over-reaction!" and just go on with whatever I normally do.

Yep, his reaction was very emotional. So, this person must be stabbed again. DestinyCall arguments we are family, but this player was not. He applied to himself a rights of űbermensch, so he can treat others as game resources or annoying obstacles. He does not communicate and sacrifices all our efforts to his greater tasks.

Now he knows other players can be a threat, not only a resource. Even if he will still not respect them, now he will consider verbal requests just not to be stabbed by those "stupid overreacting immature idiots". I was called similar by him.

futurebird wrote:

So if it was like that it's not the taking of the basket but the pattern of trying to make someone else miserable that matters.)

I repeat again. He did not even wanted to make me miserable. He was like a walker not thining about death a of all the ants he tramples. I feel it is worse than purposed griefing.

futurebird · 2019-04-17 22:03:12

My reaction to being stabbed has never been "oh maybe I need to change how I play"

I've never been stabbed for taking a basket but I have been stabbed for:
-no reason
-you accidentally killed my sister
-you switched packs with me as a baby and took my knife
-no reason
-ha ha ha this town is dead

What can I "learn" from these?

Glassius · 2019-04-17 22:41:44

I bet the attacker never tried to convince you to something before killing attempt. So, your attackers did not want to communicate, they just wanted to kill.

On the other hand, I saw once a change of stabbed person. I was trying to fix big berry farm, by putting cistern inside and some floors. I assembled horse cart and brought full set of stones, but somebody was taking them all the time to make well. I was lucky shovel just broke, so I moved stones back to pile inside bushes (2 times) and told her I am making cistern. When she tried the third time I stabbed her. The city came to questioning me, she was healed. I told inside bushes are not used, only the outer were gathered and it was seen: dark green and yellow border around fresh, full, green bushes. The city leaved me.

She did not stab me back, despite having backpack with knife. She moved stones back to the berry bushes! It was amazing! I died right before cooking lime. When I was reborn to this town, there was a cistern on 3x3 floor area inside bushes. All were tended and working there was a pleasure, not a nightmare like before.

So, your concerns killing attempt is not making people think is futile.

DestinyCall · 2019-04-17 22:46:08

He did not treat you like a brother when he took your basket ... but how did you treat him?

Whenever possible, I try to play by the Golden Rule. I treat others in the way I would like to be treated. That means I don't kill people unless they do something unforgivable and I try to talk it out before I curse a sketchy person. I help other people and I don't expect anything specific in return. The village grows stronger when we work together.

If I see something wrong, I will say something, but I also try not to assume the worst about others based on the small sliver of their life that I personally witnessed. Many people do not fully understand all the interconnected systems in OHOL or how their actions can negatively impact other people. They might be inexperienced or working with out-dated information. Sometimes even after I explain the "right" way to do something, the other person will ignore me and keep doing it "wrong". Like leaving one carrot in a row for seed, instead of a dedicated seeding row. Or shearing all the sheep when we need mutton. Or planting more berry bushes, when the patch is already too large. It can be quite maddening.

I understand the frustration of dealing with people who make your life harder and refuse to be educated. But I don't think you have a right to impose your will on other players by force. Use your words, not your knife, to win these kind of arguements. If words fail you ... move on. The village is big enough for a basket thief and a basket maker to co-exist without bloodshed. And our lives are already too short for unnecessary drama.

Glassius · 2019-04-17 23:55:01

DestinyCall wrote:

He did not treat you like a brother when he took your basket ... but how did you treat him?

He treated my ingame life as not worthy to bother, he just used my work. I considerd his ingame life as something worthy being taken off. So, I treated him much better.

DestinyCall wrote:

whenever possible, I try to play by the Golden Rule. I treat others in the way I would like to be treated.

Exactly. I've only twice killed somebody who stealed an item I was just using. In both cases stealer refused to communicate. Most of people, even if they consider their job is more important and steal item, justify themselves or even ask for permission. I always allow it then.

I never treat others as ingame resource. I won't let it happen, nor to myself, nor anyone around.

DestinyCall wrote:

I help other people and I don't expect anything specific in return. The village grows stronger when we work together.

This two sentences exclude each other often. I work as smith, shephard, tailor lately and people often request something from me. I almost always ask something in return, even if it is just time I can teach them crafting requested item. Too often it happens, players are requesting much, but don't contribute to the village. So, being egoistic is in fact making people work together. The invisible hand of free market

DestinyCall wrote:

Many people do not fully understand all the interconnected systems in OHOL or how their actions can negatively impact other people.

I don't care about unintended negative impact. Even when city was short on food and we needed compost, while roleplayer was using the last shovel for burials, I asked for it and explained why I needed it. Of course I would steal it if he did not agree, but still i treated him like a person.

It ended with broken shovel, me searching iron for 20 minutes, asssembling 2 shovels and leaving them by sheep pen and graveyard, but it is different story.

DestinyCall wrote:

But I don't think you have a right to impose your will on other players by force.

You think wrong. This right was guaranteed to me by jasonrohrer himself in his post.

DestinyCall wrote:

If words fail you ... move on.

This is what Founding Fathers did? Gandhi? The tank man? Standing against opression and injustice is one of the most honorable things to do!

DestinyCall wrote:

And our lives are already too short for unnecessary drama.

This is so untrue IRL, the shorter the life, the least worthy it is. People in past were much less careful and were risking their lifes in the unimaginable ways to present folks. In OHOL it is even less worthy, as there is always a next one on reborn.

Valuing your one, current ingame live to the level comparable to real life is roleplaying, even if the whole game assumption stated by Jason says otherwise.

GreatShawn · 2019-04-18 01:43:33

OMG THIS IS SO INGENIUS, PRETENDING TO BE A GREIFER AND LET GREIFERS SEE THEMSELVES IN REALITY

(my way of intercepting this post)

DestinyCall · 2019-04-18 03:21:07

Glassius wrote:

DestinyCall wrote:
But I don't think you have a right to impose your will on other players by force.

You think wrong. This right was guaranteed to me by jasonrohrer himself in his post.
DestinyCall wrote:
If words fail you ... move on.
This is what Founding Fathers did? Gandhi? The tank man? Standing against opression and injustice is one of the most honorable things to do!

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that Gandhi would be on my side in this arguement. His opinions on nonviolent resistence are pretty well documented. He was also a big advocate for living a simple life without much attachment to material possessions. Gandhi was a pretty smart guy.

Frankly, I'm of the opinion that Jason is mistaken to push for stronger personal property ownership in OHOL. I don't think it will have the effects that he is looking for and it will almost certainly spur more pointless violence, in-fighting, and griefing. But that is a whole other topic.

antking:]# · 2019-04-18 03:47:14

hay now we don't need to worry about this stuff! because we will all have our own privet properties! seeing the new update!

pein · 2019-04-18 07:07:03

futurebird wrote:

My reaction to being stabbed has never been "oh maybe I need to change how I play"
I've never been stabbed for taking a basket but I have been stabbed for:
-no reason
-you accidentally killed my sister
-you switched packs with me as a baby and took my knife
-no reason
-ha ha ha this town is dead
What can I "learn" from these?

You miss a lot of context and a lot of happenings.
Like the example you came, you doesn't recognize the most useful person on the camp and you just disagree so you can disagree
In fact, you were a disgraceful 7 year old who was alive cause of me, and it was a spit on my face to waste iron i got from 300 tiles away with a plan that could have saved us from the inevitable end.
I spent a life teaching, feeding others, gearing them. And all of your actions delayed me from making an iron mine and give a chance to the camp.
Killing 1 female out of 5 wasn't the fact that ended the lineage. Wasting the resources i provided and not helping me . Probably they wasted the iron on hoes and shovels and died out after a few famines.

when i joined discord and searched on my name later, i found 2 quotes:

"i was killed by Pein but i totally deserved it" Turnipseed
"you wont get stabbed by Pein, you just don't have to be a dick" Tarr

Im talking about two of the best Eves of that era. People might not learn from their mistakes, run in circles until they do.
How you explain that people nowadays run into the middle of the camp, asking for curses and heals, when they are stabbed even if they were the ones who were the fault? Back then people kept themselves back a bit when they talked to a person with a knife.

When i was shot first time for no reason (first time at all cause i never gave reason in my first few hundred hours, and im totally fine getting killed if i did) i only realized that i need to learn PVP to defend myself and others.
When i posted my first "how to kill" topic, Mirelli started killing people when they deserved it and made her a better player, and shes the smartest, most emphatic person i met in this game.

"i sound like Pein" Jk howling
i probably met him in this game but i don't have proof
but his forum posts show that he is a logical person and a grumpy uncle sometimes. Made me smile cause he arrived on same checkpoint as me on something.

I never make assumptions based on feelings, and generally my cruelest kills are the most effective on stopping drama, and the moments that i went soft were my biggest regrets.
You can argue about my choices, thing is my niece wanted to kill her and i didn't let, she was really pissed and if i let her, she would have convinced you much better than me, i was totally calm about it, maybe i grown cold, wont change the fact it was a tight call logically. Maybe if she did it, she wouldn't suicide or ran out and die, or whatever happened to her that life, she was the only one who truly helped me, and she got a new backpack for it.

they say that if you are dumb and if you know you are dumb, that's good cause you can change.
if you are dumb and don't know you are dumb, that's bad cause you never gonna change.
if you are smart and you don't know you are smart, is good cause others can follow you and you don't get power hungry.
if you are smart and you know you are, then you are dangerous

i totally know that faking modesty and coloring my words would have positive effect on my view, but i just don't think it would make me real
as far as i can see, i just need honesty, fuck all this modesty

the only truth is the logical truth, nothing wrong with feelings when they match logic
but if you are swayed by it, then you are not objective
it's not really the feelings that matter, you can put them aside, are you angry? pissed? disappointed? it doesn't really matter, what matters what you are going to do about it.
im releasing the anger on the person who caused it, and calms me down then i forget in the next minute.
so far my experience in this game, letting people get away, is in most cases the bad choice
i seen killers who honestly told that they shot someone for clothes, and i seen ones who tried to blame a kid for cutting jungle trees, but then she put the bloody knife (which was given to me for making a pen) into the nosaj.
i seen a girl trolling around but when i told she is the last girl and shouldn't fuck around, she went yumming and stood at fire, some others just shit talk for 30 min for telling them a mistake they did.
people don't change, not if they arent forced. i killed a lot of griefers, and im pretty sure some of them had to have some reality check about their skills, that wont go as easy every time to get a weapon and massacre others, there are people who can stop them.
the weirdest of this kind is the Dicktator guy, if he knows im at the camp he will never try to kill others and was surprised when i disarmed him or step away each time he tried to come closer and make me talk. Once it was my daughter and only started killing after my old age death.

But guess what, i totally accept if i mess around and i get killed for it.
and i don't see any situation where i wouldn't kill someone who i cursed and i don't see any situation where the person i cursed wouldn't kill or frame me for it. you just doesn't really seem to see the other side of the coin, maybe because you think this world is black and white and you think you are on the good side cause you want to be on the good side.

Glassius · 2019-04-18 21:36:38

GreatShawn wrote:

OMG THIS IS SO INGENIUS, PRETENDING TO BE A GREIFER AND LET GREIFERS SEE THEMSELVES IN REALITY

I did not pretend anything but... Thanks, i guess?

DestinyCall wrote:

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that Gandhi would be on my side in this arguement.

Again, nope Gandhi said
I do believe that, where there is only a choice between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence...
Then he said, when there are more choices, violence should be the last solution. But it still better than letting bad things happen, like theft.

DestinyCall wrote:

I don't think it will have the effects that he is looking for and it will almost certainly spur more pointless violence, in-fighting, and griefing. But that is a whole other topic.

I hope so! Current game design is dehumanizing us, it changes us to ants not able to plan own future, future of kids, only contribute as much as possible to hive. The peace we have in game is no real peace. The real peace comes from will of people, not because we are not able to do violence.

pein wrote:

if you are smart and you know you are, then you are dangerous

So much truth. The whole post, but I wanted to quote at least that

One Hour One Life Forums

#26 2019-04-16 22:23:39

Re: Satisfaction of defending property

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