Does being (randomly) murdered make you want to play the game more?

futurebird · 2019-05-19 09:50:31

If you live a life and are murdered are you excited to get back in and play again? I'm not talking about if you start something and end up being killed but if another player kills you and the reason isn't clear? It's been a long time since I got randomly killed. Boy is it discouraging and not fun!

To guard against murder I've tried keeping a knife or sword on me, but I'm no good at attacking people and my heart just isn't in it. Basically, I find that suddenly I'm really bad at a game I used to be good at (or thought I was at least competent at) and the way to get better is to get faster at killing other players which I don't have any serious desire to do.

At least whoever keeps killing me is having a good time.

One observation is that Eve's coming in to town to kill people is also happening in the Tutorial towns which means this isn't about resources at all. It isn't that Eve's have been pushed to where their only option is to kill I think people who like to kill other players now have a reason to spawn as Eve because they will be close enough to towns to kill people and can't be cursed when they do.

That's pretty crumby for people who just want to build an engine, or farm carrots.

RodneyC86 · 2019-05-19 09:56:57

futurebird wrote:

If you live a life and are murdered are you excited to get back in and play again? I'm not talking about if you start something and end up being killed but if another player kills you and the reason isn't clear? It's been a long time since I got randomly killed. Boy is it discouraging and not fun!
To guard against murder I've tried keeping a knife or sword on me, but I'm no good at attacking people and my heart just isn't in it. Basically, I find that suddenly I'm really bad at a game I used to be good at (or thought I was at least competent at) and the way to get better is to get faster at killing other players which I don't have any serious desire to do.
At least whoever keeps killing me is having a good time.
One observation is that Eve's coming in to town to kill people is also happening in the Tutorial towns which means this isn't about resources at all. It isn't that Eve's have been pushed to where their only option is to kill I think people who like to kill other players now have a reason to spawn as Eve because they will be close enough to towns to kill people and can't be cursed when they do.
That's pretty crumby for people who just want to build an engine, or farm carrots.

I personally think Jason has put us all TOO close together this time

It's kind of disturbing so many people are into this spawning as eve just to kill people. And gamers wonder why the world tends to see us as sociopaths

futurebird · 2019-05-19 10:06:48

I don't think gamers are any worse than any other random groupings of players and being nasty in a game is far better than doing it IRL. But, I'm still not a fan of the "git gud" "kill or be killed" uh... "culture?" of most games. Like it's just really hard for me to get invested in that mentality for fun. I thought that maybe the Invading Eves were just desperate: the wilds are stripped and towns re not friendly to outsiders. But, now I think it's more like "oh I can kill all these people and that means I'm a bad ass" or something like this.

I'm also bummed to be banned from the tutorial town which was really making me happy for the past few days. I was born there on my first try without using /die at all. 24 hours? Great.

Last edited by futurebird (2019-05-19 10:23:37)

RodneyC86 · 2019-05-19 10:22:12

futurebird wrote:

I don't think gamers are any worse than any other random groupings of players and being nasty in a game is far better than doing it IRL. But, I'm still not a fan of the "git gud" "kill or be killed" uh... "culture?" of most games. Like it's just really hard for me to get invested in that mentality for fun. I thought that maybe the Invading Eves were just desperate: the wilds are stripped and towns re not friendly to outsiders. But, now I think it's more like "oh I can kill all these people and that means I'm a bad ass" or something like this.
I'm also bummed to be banned from the tutorial town which was really making me happy for the past fe days. I was born there on my first try without using /die at all. 24 hours? Great.

It probably isn't true that gamers are worse than the average person in terms of morality. But when viewed from an outside lens, these kind of gameplay is seen as disruptive play which problem people/children indulge in. You know that one kid in kindergarten who finds it fun to rip the seams of a girl's doll or destroying a craft a 'nerd' kid is working on? This kind of behaviour is analogous

Also I believe what you do in absence of judging people defines your true character. What you do outside while being judge is a masked character

I dont like git Gud games either, but they are fine if the PURPOSE of the game IS indeed to kill each other and just that alone. Ohol is just not that sort of game

Last edited by RodneyC86 (2019-05-19 10:23:01)

Dodge · 2019-05-19 10:29:27

Sure it can be anger inducing of frustrating but what i do most of the time is asking myself:

How could i have prevented that?

What can i change to prevent this from happening?

(basically where did i fuck up)

Etc.

Most of the time i get killed is because i dont care but if i really dont want to get killed i just pay attention to who seems to "want too much a weapon", when you see someone that seems drawn to any kind of weapon, you put them on your "suspicious list" and you just dont let them get too close to you, for any reason whatsoever unless you're absolutely sure you can trust them.

And pay attention to their behavior and the kind of weapon they want.

For example is it a sword?

If you're in same family then no issue, if you are in a different one then it's a red flag

Bow is usually a red flag too unless it's an eve camp and if there is a bear attack.

Knife obviously depends and are the kind of weapon you want to pay closer attention to what they are doing with.

It's usually pretty easy to find out who is going to cause trouble, it's rarely the person watering the bushes or making soil that is going to stab randomly unless they're pretending to lower suspicion.

TLDR. If you see someone doing jack shit and running after weapons you can be pretty sure that person is going to be trouble.

PS. Ban now lasts 3 hours server running time, so you should be unbanned by now

CatX · 2019-05-19 10:54:35

To answer your question, no.

Deciding whether to play or not is a balancing of the aspects that are rewarding and the ones that are detrimental to the overall gaming experience.

I won't complain too much about it though, the game has the right to develop in any way it wants, and there's always other games I can play. I appreciate the good times I've had in OHOL either way.

But I do maintain that griefing is a bug, not a feature.

wondaland · 2019-05-19 10:58:24

I'm a sucker for a good narrative so I'll usually drum up some sort of story when I'm murdered. have posted about a couple instances recently. One I didn't make a topic about was a few days ago in a town I'd immigrated to, had a few kids and then, coincidentally returned to in another life. With a few generations of my immigrant family there at this point living, seemingly peacefully together. Then, of course, a rogue eve came in stabbing and several from both families died. Saw a member of my family kill a native villager which sucked. I asked him why and he said they were murdering our family, tried to explain it was a completely separate eve but didn't really matter at that point. Then I was killed by said eve and poof goodbye life.

sorry for the tangent, as I said I'm a sucker for stories.

But to answer the Ops question I'm not discouraged when 'randomly' killed because I've adapted a mindset that it is a part of the game, part of the story. Each life is unique some I live to 60 and die surrounded by grand-babies. Some I run into the wild in search of new wonders and end up in an unfortunate duel with a bear. Others I get killed by a rabid eve while planting carrots. Each is unique and I enjoy almost all of them.

I wholeheartedly believe many people would enjoy themselves a lot more if they kept an open mind. Sure if you go in with a certain intent to say, make a camera or collect copious amounts of iron and someone literally stabs you in the back, it can feel pretty disheartening. But try to take it in your stride and accept that was the full stop to that lives 'story'. For example, Jimmy Boots spent his short life trying to increase the villages iron supply and amass a steel fortune. Sadly he was brutally murdered by a killer (griefer ) within his family just as he placed the finished stanchion kit into his kart. The killer proclaiming Jimmy had stolen his rope, a weak defence and as Jimmy stood bleeding to death he saw justice served as his Aunt Jane dealt to the killer with an arrow.

Just embrace the narrative

futurebird · 2019-05-19 11:08:26

CatX wrote:

But I do maintain that griefing is a bug, not a feature.

Same. I can see the appeal to trying to leverage Greifers in to a natural part of the threats in the game. You have wild pigs and snakes ... and griefers I think that Jason seems to be looking for ways to structure the game so that destructive people are just another challenge, as they are IRL. It's not a terrible idea.

There are some stumbling blocks however:

-being killed by another player randomly without cases its emotionally different than being killed by a pig. Even when you *know* you did nothing to deserve it you ask "what did I do to them to make them so angry?" Your death is the result of someone with agency, not a blind killing machine like a NPC snake. It makes you wonder if you are welcome, if you are a good person. If you are being told "go away you are not wanted here" because there is a person behind those actions.

-griefers, like most players, exploit any game mechanic that they can. Closer spawning? No curses? Excellent! Butter knives (it used to be that a knife with butter works as the sword did at first)-- does it "make sense" in the world of the game? irrelevant. Now I rather like the way that players find loopholes and exploits in games (Tutorial town) -- but when those loopholes are used to make everyone miserable it not only break immersion, it breaks ones ability to make progress.

Last edited by futurebird (2019-05-19 11:12:40)

futurebird · 2019-05-19 11:09:58

wondaland wrote:

Just embrace the narrative

Not bad advice, but this story about how all the people who look and talk different are evil and need to be killed is depressing.

wondaland · 2019-05-19 11:24:41

futurebird wrote:

wondaland wrote:
Just embrace the narrative
Not bad advice, but this story about how all the people who look and talk different are evil and need to be killed is depressing.

Oh it is absolutely depressing but, at risk of sounding like a serial optimist, not everyone is like that and I have had quite a few games where two or more families actively try to live peacefully. Some succeeded, some didn't but in my mind that's not an entirely bad thing. Surely we'd get bored pretty quick if each life was the same?

I will say murder is at an all time high right now most of that stemming from perceived 'outsider' threat. Then again I've played maybe five lives today and didn't see a single murder.

futurebird · 2019-05-19 11:32:03

Yeah I had a long streak of games without (random out of nowhere) murder and I kind of forgot just how much it bums me out

I don't think that most players are that in to that whole "mini game" far more players want me to teach them about water and pumps than want to just kill me for no reason, but I worry about that broad group of players who aren't aggressive unless provoked getting discouraged and playing less as the murders spread through towns.

I'm a pretty sensitive person so I'm probably taking this all too hard. Like I can recognize that but at the same time still feel really terrible and sad.

Dodge · 2019-05-19 11:32:48

futurebird wrote:

wondaland wrote:
Just embrace the narrative
Not bad advice, but this story about how all the people who look and talk different are evil and need to be killed is depressing.

It's not a story it's human history, you think a tribe would just trust blindly another tribe back then?

Not saying they would systematically murder each other, but it could happen.

The same way different tribes could cooperate and share.

You have the possibilities, the tools it's up to you what you do with it.

futurebird · 2019-05-19 13:22:27

Genocide yes peoples have been wiped out land, wealth, and resources looted many times. But that’s at a nation level. Just killing the family that lives near you isn’t productive or normal, who will your kids marry? Who will farm the land and generate wealth? And since this killing is still going on in Tutorial town too it’s obviously isn’t about survival. It’s about killing for fun.

IRL killing for amusement is deeply destructive to any civilization. In this game it’s at least counter to the goal of building civilizations.

Humans have always been violent. Hunting and gathering tribes suffer from as much violence as people with towns. In some ways the purpose of civilization is to create conditions of peace and trust since both are essential for trade. But if 10% of the people born in your nation are sociopaths who think killing is fun you just won’t ever get there. IRL such people are really really rare -in games much less so- which is why games need to be designed with mechanics to curb those tendencies to more normal levels if you want cooperation. What we have instead are mechanisms that encourage nasty behavior by making it free of consequences and anonymous. All that to shoehorn the “Meta” of people not trusting outsiders. It just feels contrived.

Dodge · 2019-05-19 13:43:50

futurebird wrote:

Genocide yes peoples have been wiped out land, wealth, and resources looted many times. But that’s at a nation level. Just killing the family that lives near you isn’t productive or normal, who will your kids marry? Who will farm the land and generate wealth? And since this killing is still going on in Tutorial town too it’s obviously isn’t about survival. It’s about killing for fun.
IRL killing for amusement is deeply destructive to any civilization. In this game it’s at least counter to the goal of building civilizations.
Humans have always been violent. Hunting and gathering tribes suffer from as much violence as people with towns. In some ways the purpose of civilization is to create conditions of peace and trust since both are essential for trade. But if 10% of the people born in your nation are sociopaths who think killing is fun you just won’t ever get there. IRL such people are really really rare -in games much less so- which is why games need to be designed with mechanics to curb those tendencies to more normal levels if you want cooperation. What we have instead are mechanisms that encourage nasty behavior by making it free of consequences and anonymous. All that to shoehorn the “Meta” of people not trusting outsiders. It just feels contrived.

It's probably the same people you see, they just get reborn all the time.. So 10% is an exageration, i would say 2-3% if not less.

Not trusting outsiders as always been the case in every human societies at least at first.

What do you mean by free of consequences? Attacker can still get killed.

He is still balancing that aspect of the game.

What would you want to see to make it more balanced/interesting/fair?

Me personally, better medicine so we could have official medics that can be quick to heal wounds.

Also some throwable object to chase down Thieves or griefer thieves and sword invaders, like round stones for example

Running after someone puts you at the same speed as them so it's most of the time useless, i had a life with a thief griefer, he stole a bunch of stuff to hide it behind trees, i chased her down with knife but couldnt catch her, she eventually stopped to eat and i took the cart back, but that was only luck.

Also not being able to see a big wooden cart behind a tree because of the 2D perspective is an issue, hidint should still be a thing but you should be able to change perspective somehow.

lychee · 2019-05-19 13:44:12

I’ve been feeling more and more detached the more violent this game gets.

It’s sort of like a defense mechanism, I guess.

It sucks to experience the slaughter/killing the first few times, but at a certain point you kinda realize that you don’t really need to care anymore. These days I see it almost every game, so why bother get immersed to begin with?

futurebird · 2019-05-19 13:52:59

lychee wrote:

I’ve been feeling more and more detached the more violent this game gets.
It’s sort of like a defense mechanism, I guess.
It sucks to experience the slaughter/killing the first few times, but at a certain point you kinda realize that you don’t really need to care anymore. These days I see it almost every game, so why bother get immersed to begin with?

Same it’d be like IDK crying because your friend got blown up by a creeper in minecraft

Averest · 2019-05-19 14:05:34

Some day we'll look back on this and laugh that we were ever scared of swords when the hordes of automated death robots litter the landscape with our corpses.

RodneyC86 · 2019-05-19 14:12:55

futurebird wrote:

lychee wrote:
I’ve been feeling more and more detached the more violent this game gets.
It’s sort of like a defense mechanism, I guess.
It sucks to experience the slaughter/killing the first few times, but at a certain point you kinda realize that you don’t really need to care anymore. These days I see it almost every game, so why bother get immersed to begin with?

Same it’d be like IDK crying because your friend got blown up by a creeper in minecraft

got born into a stabbing frenzy between 4 different family lines. They were farming as usual and i witnessed the collapse shortly after
Managed to grow just enough to grab a berry but couldnt run away

lives are too cheap in this game, it can't be helped

anyone here watched Sword Art Online?

Spoonwood · 2019-05-19 14:20:56

No, I do NOT find it enjoyable to get show by an arrow while trying to do something. It's frustrating.

Personally, I don't blame griefers for being Eves these days. For their griefing, sure, but not for being Eves. If a griefer plays as an Eve such a person can get started on their mayhem right away. They are not slow. Others don't have to feed them. They don't have a name. They have NO family, and thus can't get cursed by anyone. Griefers already expect to die or for it to be a real challenge for them to live to not get killed before 60, so there are NO negative consequences for a griefer when playing as an Eve beyond what... some internal sense of in game morality? Yea, but griefers already don't have that or have lost that sense of fair play.

I simply do NOT agree that Jason trying to use griefers as a natural threat makes for a good thing. It's just Jason trying to force people into how he wants people to play the game by players making walled cities. It's NOT improving the game by making things more attractive. It's just using the stick instead of the carrot for his 'vision' which he refuses to reconsider as flawed from what I've seen so far. And honestly when I think about it, I've started to feel surprised that there hasn't existed more negative reaction to the nerfing of cursing combined with Eves spawning near towns all the time now. This could be because people were distracted by the awfulness of swords, though, and that the lack of griefer control will become something more criticized in the future.

Spoonwood · 2019-05-19 14:28:59

Dodge wrote:

What do you mean by free of consequences? Attacker can still get killed.

Griefers don't care all that much about getting killed. Yes, they want to avoid it, but they expect it to happen to them at some point, or realize it makes for a strong possibility. There's no cursing an Eve griefing to donkey town now, so, no, there are no negative consequences to an Eve griefer that really makes him or her think twice about doing so.

Dodge wrote:

He is still balancing that aspect of the game.
What would you want to see to make it more balanced/interesting/fair?

I wasn't asked, but being about to curse people from different lineages, as the old system allowed for, allows for control of griefers, since that can get them sent to Donkey Town. As much as he lies, Da False wasn't lying when he said he wanted his curse score removed, and that's because he didn't like Donkey Town. No evil griefer *should* escape insufficiently punished. A griefer dying in OHOL isn't sufficient punishment to deter future activity or lessen it (at the very least griefing was less when Da False was in Donkey Town even if just started griefing again once out of Donkey Town). So, being able to curse people from other lineages would be more fair. Either that or not having Eves spawn so close to people and going back to something like the old Eve spiral.

futurebird · 2019-05-19 15:05:08

Yeah, I don't think not being able to curse people in other lines mattered much when people were more spread out. But now? If your idea of a good time is killing a bunch of people who are just working there isn't any consequence.

People doing raids because they have been forced in to it by shortages can curse back and would be in groups meaning they would not get hit with many curses. Lone wolfs just killing because they can could get cursed by a whole town-- so I think it's fair.

DestinyCall · 2019-05-19 15:20:04

If the vocal griefers on this forum have proven anything, it is that griefers care more about getting cursed than about getting killed. I'm sure that is doubly-true now that it is so easy to spawn as a feral Eve - able to immediately use any weapons you can find or make and able to repawn immediately upon death to launch another attack on the nearest population center. Why would you play any other way?

Buggy · 2019-05-19 15:32:11

I don't like being randomly murdered if I could do nothing to prevent it. Unfortunately this seems to be how Jason wants a random murder to be unstoppable. Right now if someone with a bow drawn or blade out comes onto my screen while I am farming I automatically start running in circles then look for weapons to defend. Often if the attacker puts down the weapon to eat I can grab it. It is hilarious when they start asking for the arrow or knife back when they were obviously going to kill someone with it.
,
Dieing when I have no defense is sad though like when I am a baby and I am shot by someone or I am focused on a task and alt tabbed to onetec and am stabbed. It makes lives feel cheap and it is frustrating when you are trying to learn something. There may not be materials available to learn that process in the next life. This happened with me and photo paper I tried hard to get all the items together and started the process but then was killed randomly in two lives so I got frustrated and stopped trying to take pictures there are only so many villages with the black fabric ready.

Dodge · 2019-05-19 16:20:35

Spoonwood wrote:

Dodge wrote:
What do you mean by free of consequences? Attacker can still get killed.
Griefers don't care all that much about getting killed. Yes, they want to avoid it, but they expect it to happen to them at some point, or realize it makes for a strong possibility. There's no cursing an Eve griefing to donkey town now, so, no, there are no negative consequences to an Eve griefer that really makes him or her think twice about doing so.
Dodge wrote:
He is still balancing that aspect of the game.
What would you want to see to make it more balanced/interesting/fair?
I wasn't asked, but being about to curse people from different lineages, as the old system allowed for, allows for control of griefers, since that can get them sent to Donkey Town. As much as he lies, Da False wasn't lying when he said he wanted his curse score removed, and that's because he didn't like Donkey Town. No evil griefer *should* escape insufficiently punished. A griefer dying in OHOL isn't sufficient punishment to deter future activity or lessen it (at the very least griefing was less when Da False was in Donkey Town even if just started griefing again once out of Donkey Town). So, being able to curse people from other lineages would be more fair. Either that or not having Eves spawn so close to people and going back to something like the old Eve spiral.

I see what you mean especially now that eve's spawn close to populated area on purpose but if you allow curses then you remove an aspect of the game (raiding another village for ressourcs you need, any conflict between village that can arise)

So how would you solve that issue?

Imo with better medicine the problem of murders would be less of an issue (it has already been better since he changed swords)

Having limited lives and removing curse system completely

Better tools to fight serial murderers (hard to catch they can just run)

Maybe one shot/stab wouldnt be lethal (depending on weapon), you could heal yourself from superficial wounds

Behing able to see behind trees somehow (some griefers hide stuff behind trees, in game solution not a mod)

Léonard · 2019-05-19 19:43:56

Dodge wrote:

So how would you solve that issue?

First, you convince Jason that there's an issue in the first place.

Because that's the problem with him and every proponent of war swords.
They don't realize that problem, they'd rather strawman us into people who don't want violence at all whenever we make that point.

Jason sees that griefers literally scare people into building walls and thinks that's ok.
His rationalization is "well now you're building walls guys".

How can you seriously not see anything wrong with this kind of game designing?

One Hour One Life Forums

#1 2019-05-19 09:50:31

Does being (randomly) murdered make you want to play the game more?

#2 2019-05-19 09:56:57

Re: Does being (randomly) murdered make you want to play the game more?

#3 2019-05-19 10:06:48

Re: Does being (randomly) murdered make you want to play the game more?

#4 2019-05-19 10:22:12

Re: Does being (randomly) murdered make you want to play the game more?

#5 2019-05-19 10:29:27

Re: Does being (randomly) murdered make you want to play the game more?

#6 2019-05-19 10:54:35

Re: Does being (randomly) murdered make you want to play the game more?

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Re: Does being (randomly) murdered make you want to play the game more?

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#9 2019-05-19 11:09:58

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#10 2019-05-19 11:24:41

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#11 2019-05-19 11:32:03

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#12 2019-05-19 11:32:48

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#13 2019-05-19 13:22:27

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#14 2019-05-19 13:43:50

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#15 2019-05-19 13:44:12

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#16 2019-05-19 13:52:59

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#17 2019-05-19 14:05:34

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#18 2019-05-19 14:12:55

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#19 2019-05-19 14:20:56

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#20 2019-05-19 14:28:59

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#21 2019-05-19 15:05:08

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#22 2019-05-19 15:20:04

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#23 2019-05-19 15:32:11

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#24 2019-05-19 16:20:35

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#25 2019-05-19 19:43:56

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