Posse implementation

jasonrohrer · 2019-09-27 21:57:58

Do these speed change numbers for kill posses make sense to you?

https://github.com/jasonrohrer/OneLife/ … 28e496fceb

sigmen4020 · 2019-09-27 22:00:08

By posse do you mean multiple people trying to kill the same person?

I'm unsure how it would work in practice, but the idea is that you need to have multiple people with you in order to increase movement speed during the kill state right?

Also is this change on top of the kill delay?

Last edited by sigmen4020 (2019-09-27 22:02:30)

Thaulos · 2019-09-27 22:04:39

Please no.

There is next to no situations where multiple people are available to chase a griefer. Most towns are composed mostly by newbies or people who had next to no experience with killing. This change would make it impossible for the one guy that can protect town to not be able to do so.

Group advantage should be a supportive thing, in the forms of curses and pads, not magic posses.

fug · 2019-09-27 22:12:16

How hard is it to just make a slowdown item instead of bunch of growling monkeys chasing a guy Benny Hill style? You shouldn't need a bunch of random people to be deputy and it's bad enough when you have one to two people standing around now you need them in the case of the big baaaad griffer.

Curse changes were good
Kill changes are in a good direction.

This is silly magic.

Giving twins+ more mechanics to help destroy towns is bad (you can only curse one, and now they get a speed bonus. Noice.)

Last edited by fug (2019-09-27 22:13:02)

Jk Howling · 2019-09-27 22:13:35

Lol.

sigmen4020 · 2019-09-27 22:18:15

If this works the way I think this works it's probably not a good change.

Twisted · 2019-09-27 22:24:40

Troublemakers getting a slowdown when they're trying to catch you is nice.

On the other hand, you getting a slowdown when you're trying to stop a griefer from stealing your baby/engine/cart is very not nice.

I feel like this change is a bigger buff to troublemakers than to regular players. If a griefer wants to murder someone they can choose from a number of people and they'll pick the easiest target. If the target runs, they'll switch to someone else.

If you're trying to stop said griefer with this change you can't do it alone, you need at least two people with weapons. This sounds like a death sentence to small towns. A griefer can pick your people off one by one while you're scrambling to make more weapons.

It will be almost impossible to kill a griefer alone, while the griefer will have no trouble killing someone. Even worse, griefers don't care about being killed because their life is disposable.

I don't like it. If you decide to go with this posse mechanic the default should be 1x speed, but I don't really like the sound of the mechanic at all. Of course I haven't tried it yet so I might change my mind, but just looking at the change my first impression is not positive.

jasonrohrer · 2019-09-27 22:39:56

Yeah, the default speed could be 1.

I'm trying to address the fact that it's very easy for a lone griefer to run a way from a determined group.

Killing is supposed to be a logical action, not a twitch-based skill-fest. You decide to kill, and the person dies. I do want safety in numbers, though, which is why there's medicine than you need help applying (a lone griefer can't heal). However, medicine doesn't seem to be enough.

Killing is not in the game as "part of the game," as in, "the meat of the game." It's in there because it's necessary. You need to get rid of someone who is messing up the town and breaking the rules. That's the only reason that it's there.

Griefers abuse killing for reasons that are beyond my intentions: they kill unilaterally just to bug people. That should pretty much be impossible or at least unlikely if you're paying attention.

So the "logical action" should require, somehow, the consensus of the group. Griefers shouldn't be able to act alone, picking people off.

This week, we also get these changes:

1. Murder mouth starts when you target someone, and you have a 3-second delay before you can actually kill (victim has warning)
2. Murder mouth has an "off screen" (!) indicator. You can hear AND see them coming, and where they are.

These changes make it much harder for a griefer to pick people off. Especially with the 0.5 slowdown when trying to kill alone.

Even with a bow, you can hear them coming, and you get 3 seconds of warning, and they are slow, so you can run away.

But without the 0.5 slowdown? Seems like they could still get the best of you, even if you run away, because of network lag, corner cutting, etc.

Essentially, griefers killing people should pretty much stop, while a group deciding to kill someone should still be possible.

Twisted, remember, if you can easily "chase down a griefer," then a griefer can easily chase you down.

On the other side of the coin, in my own experience this week, I was chased by a determined group of 3-4 people, and I was able to evade them and get away. It was lame.

Twisted · 2019-09-27 22:50:59

jasonrohrer wrote:

Killing is not in the game as "part of the game," as in, "the meat of the game." It's in there because it's necessary. You need to get rid of someone who is messing up the town and breaking the rules. That's the only reason that it's there.

Making it impossible to kill a griefer alone is not the solution. If the griefer wants to kill, they'll go for anyone, for someone who seems distracted by something else. They'll find a target. But if you want to kill a griefer, you want to kill one specific person. One specific person that will be expecting you to come after them. And with this change you are 100% unable to kill them if you only have one weapon. Which means towns will need a lot more weapons on average, which will in turn increase the murder rate even further.

I like the other changes but I feel like this might be a bit over the top. Why not see how the other murder/cursing changes pan out first?

jasonrohrer · 2019-09-27 23:36:31

Wait, but.... what if a griefer wants to kill YOU.

That seems like the most likely case, right?

What are the chances:

1. That some lone griefer wants to pick of some individual person?

2. That some town has decided to kill a griefer, but only one person is available to do it?

1. Is the most common, most complained-about case, right?

"It's just not fair, the griefer can sneak around and pick people off, etc."

If you're the only person in town who thinks the target should die, you haven't made a very strong case, have you?

I kinda want to eliminate 1v1 killing from the game, mostly.

I think I will adjust it like this:

Lone: 0.75
Duo: 1.25
Trio: 1.5
Quad+: 2.0

The duo should be able to go after a lone person most of the time. If the Duo is only 1.0. they will be in the usual "griefer can run away" game. Yes, there are two of them, but it's hard for them to coordinate to corner him with only 1.0 speed.

I also really like the need to conspire, off-screen, before the set-up. You both have to target the victim, and if the victim runs away after the first targeting, the second perp won't be able to lock on. So you need to coordinate to target together. So you probably need to walk into the woods to discuss your plan. And then you both strike at the same moment, and even if the victim tries to run away, you will be able to catch them.

Et tu, Brute?

Thaulos · 2019-09-27 23:45:17

2. is actually quite normal.

Do you even teach anyone anywhere how to kill? A lot of people don't know at all. Besides many more people are newbies or have no reaction time to do any of it. Most "PvP" happens between older players. Not that many veterans available, with weapons ready, at any one point.

Groups of people with PvP oriented inclinations will most likely be the griefers. You are giving them a huge advantage with this.

You imagine people interacting in the game off screen, but what happens in reality is people coordinating on discord will "meta game" into targeting other random players one by one.

Group advantage shouldn't be overwhelming.

Another thing is that right now I can see a griefer in action and stab him right away. Done. With this change griefers will be able to do so much damage before anyone can group up to kill him. Earlier towns even worse, how many iron for knifes and ropes/string for bows/arrows do you have available? What happens if a griefer takes one? Do you need 3 at all times to counter him? What if they are twins? You need 5 and hope they don't mass murder everyone before people coordinate? What if they are quads? Is it even possible to defeat them?

You said on the other topic that you wanted families to last. The family you gave as an example was a family that was murdered by 3 griefers. The griefers were pretty much 1 to 1 in comparison with the rest of the town. They had little chance but with this they would definitely have no chance at all for a defense.

You also nerfed curses to quads because of unfair advantage but now you give them 2x walking speed when targeting a single person? Doesn't make sense to me.

Last edited by Thaulos (2019-09-27 23:47:21)

Dodge · 2019-09-27 23:52:44

Seems good but maybe nerf twins,trips,quads.

jasonrohrer wrote:

I also really like the need to conspire, off-screen, before the set-up. You both have to target the victim, and if the victim runs away after the first targeting, the second perp won't be able to lock on. So you need to coordinate to target together. So you probably need to walk into the woods to discuss your plan. And then you both strike at the same moment, and even if the victim tries to run away, you will be able to catch them.
Et tu, Brute?

Zoom mods can see text speech from far away so discussing strategy off screen to avoid the person seeing it is not going to work

BlueDiamondAvatar · 2019-09-27 23:59:50

I failed to run away from a lone griefer who was one age range older than me yesterday, (Oh, I'm pretty sure Ziv has a second account, BTW) so I like the idea of generally slowing down running to kill.

I have seen spontaneous posses form a couple of times... but I'm not sure if all the member knew about shift clicking, and whatnot. Does each person have to have the KILL command triggered to get the speed bonus?

But can you do something to make the speed bonus not work if the group is made up of twins or quads? There was at least one arc that fell to a pair of murdering twins systematically spawning in each family.

seth · 2019-09-28 00:04:09

Awesome - when this change comes into affect, people will organize around it - moving from vigilante justice to organized mobs.

Of course, griefers will adapt too, but it will be harder for them and easier for townspeople to organize. Dig it.. lets see how it plays out.

BladeWoods · 2019-09-28 00:12:41

jasonrohrer wrote:

I do want safety in numbers, though, which is why there's medicine than you need help applying (a lone griefer can't heal). However, medicine doesn't seem to be enough.

Medicine might be far more effective at doing that if you made it cheaper to make pads. Pads are so expensive both resource and time wise to make. We only get one pad per shearing of a sheep.

jasonrohrer wrote:

1. That some lone griefer wants to pick of some individual person?
2. That some town has decided to kill a griefer, but only one person is available to do it?
1. Is the most common, most complained-about case, right?

2 happens all the time. 1 happens all the time too. But I definitely kill griefers individually more often than I kill them with a group. Getting a group together and talking and consenting to kill someone takes a while, only happens to a griefer that's already done so much shit everybody knows about it.

Last edited by BladeWoods (2019-09-28 00:17:34)

jasonrohrer · 2019-09-28 03:20:01

Well, I got chased by an organized posse. They couldn't catch me.

Nerfing twins is interesting.... maybe I should make it so that twins just cannot kill, ever?

Or at least so they don't speed up along with the posse (but they still contribute to the posse numbers... they just always run slow as part of whatever posse). I'll do that. It's a quick fix.

pein · 2019-09-28 04:55:16

So if a bunch of guys chasing some posse then who is the posse?

MrsDuckGirl · 2019-09-28 07:12:06

How about a solution that doesn't involve weapon, like a vote system ? Someone could launch a vote "should we kick XX from the family ? yes/no", with a majority of yes XX is killed instantly and can be born to another family. If no family available, because XX has either been kicked from all families either been cursed everywhere, he goes to DK.

MultiLife · 2019-09-28 08:12:15

So a posse is some amount of people who shift click a guy at the same time?
I birthed a griefer son one life, and made sure to announce the town his name, what he was doing and that I would kill him. Few other elders were now after him too. However, nobody knew where he was so we split. I found him North, got him to stop to talk and stabbed him.
So posse system wouldn’t have helped there at all right?

MrsDuckGirl wrote:

How about a solution that doesn't involve weapon, like a vote system ? Someone could launch a vote "should we kick XX from the family ? yes/no", with a majority of yes XX is killed instantly and can be born to another family. If no family available, because XX has either been kicked from all families either been cursed everywhere, he goes to DK.

This is the magic I’d like.

Last edited by MultiLife (2019-09-28 08:12:53)

Dantox · 2019-09-28 09:04:23

MrsDuckGirl wrote:

How about a solution that doesn't involve weapon, like a vote system ? Someone could launch a vote "should we kick XX from the family ? yes/no", with a majority of yes XX is killed instantly and can be born to another family. If no family available, because XX has either been kicked from all families either been cursed everywhere, he goes to DK.

Meanwhile i like the idea i personally dislike the constant use of game gimmicks like a direct vote system that breaks the immersion of the game.

What about something like /exile X? could also work as vote-based wich the exiled person would lose family status, fence permissons and being marked as "(Exiled)" this to make said player lose all access to the town and warn the family that x is exiled.

Spoonwood · 2019-09-28 10:02:52

jasonrohrer wrote:

Killing is not in the game as "part of the game," as in, "the meat of the game." It's in there because it's necessary. You need to get rid of someone who is messing up the town and breaking the rules. That's the only reason that it's there.

Oh please. You insult the intelligence of your community by writing such a thing Jason. YOU put in the warsword Jason Rohrer. After you did that, you can't claim that killing is there because it's necessary. It is part of the 'meat the game' and has been since you put in the war sword object.

jasonrohrer wrote:

Griefers abuse killing for reasons that are beyond my intentions: they kill unilaterally just to bug people. That should pretty much be impossible or at least unlikely if you're paying attention.

What are you talking about? The war sword clearly has made it not impossible for a very long time.

jasonrohrer wrote:

On the other side of the coin, in my own experience this week, I was chased by a determined group of 3-4 people, and I was able to evade them and get away. It was lame.

Sounds like you've finally started to realize that war swords aren't interesting. That they don't create rich dynamics. That's hopeful at least.

pein · 2019-09-28 12:44:22

I got no 15 years developing, but if you put a big red button in the middle of the room, people will push it.
Instead of making it balanced or fun, you made a 0-100 system without hp bar, then you removed the ability to defend and made attackers 100% efficient with their magic aim while the whole process is subjective.

People love pushing buttons, it's the internet, most people are negative.

It's part of the game, you cannot expect players to use a feature wisely, when it's up to them how they do it.
I think the only way it would be better if people could challenge others to duel and would be no way to decline it without getting negative effects.
The banishing could also work if the territory control wouldn't be goofy fences, rather auto walls on part of the maps, as my sector idea was

Same for that, challenging other family on their sector could be done with no way of refusing it. Each area on the map would be defined as a sector, you said you don't want to change the map that way but the current map is more like that anyway, each swamp is surrounded with the other biomes so it could be one sector, only allowing one family/one town

It can be done with fences too, instead of killing internal threats just banish them outside the fence area, because we got more internal threats than external which makes fences useless a lot of times, it's a death trap.

The current mechanics just make ambush and framing not only viable, but the main option of fights. Enforcing some honourable fights would be the way to go.

You said yourself that you want trade and wars to happen. It's still not a war, it's a group ambush. Most people don't even know that they are at war. An elder declaring war centuries ago won't mean that others know it gonna happen, or when. Also, can be worked around with normal weapons, it doesn't require people to kill with swords, they can do it with bows and knives.
A war would mean a war declaration, time limits, and free for all fights under it lasts. Refusing a war would not be possible, only if you pay taxes to other team.

Reason people kill:
-boredom, not enough content
-challenge, they also like to flex with it, so why no skill based combat?
-there is no mild punishment, like non-lethal combat, lot of cases that would be enough
-there is no leadership or group decisions, 8 year old kids can start a war by murdering others
-it's easier to kill than to talk it out, as it's no way to enforce others to do what you want, even if you are more skilled or knowledgeable they won't listen. No private ownership so stealing is a constant thing. No xp system or any motivation for people to do anything.
-it's easy to frame and ambush others, as nothing will enforce others to be honourable
-inconsistency with weapons. Swords can't be used on peace and your family, other weapons got no such limitations so can be skipped
-weapons are easy to make and to steal, so they end up in hands of people who can't make it, and can't use it for the real purposes. Also, they are kind of required for everyone, easy to justify the need for a weapon when others can kill you, but it's a waste of resources to the town ad unnecessary risk in time of peace.

Thaulos · 2019-09-28 12:49:15

I killed someone today, I can't say I found it to be very smooth lol.

https://youtu.be/Dim64JeuHPQ?t=2087

Last edited by Thaulos (2019-09-28 12:55:51)

jasonrohrer · 2019-09-28 15:03:29

If a posse goes after a posse, both run faster.

I mean, consider two groups:

Bob, Sam, Alice

Tom, James, David

If BSA all target Tom and TJD all target Bob, then both groups will run at 1.5x speed

If one group mismatches its targeting (Bob targets Tom, Sam targets James, Alice targets David), then that group will run slow (0.75x) because they don't actually have a posse (they are in a posse of 1, each in their own posse).

MultiLife · 2019-09-28 16:50:02

Well that sounds just.. like it's a must to be in a voice chat.

One Hour One Life Forums

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Posse implementation

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Re: Posse implementation

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