What happened to danger in this game?

Gogo · 2019-11-12 17:23:12

In rift we had many griefers and killing, like... constantly. And problems with resources. It was too much. But now everybody lives happily, help each other. Sorry, but game gets more boring because of that. I lived like 10 lives and they were the same, I helped build town, almost nothing happens, not many difficulties.

No danger - no fun. And how you guys feel about it?

What is the present purpose of this game? Having kids and stay alive is super easy, towns are safe. Expanding them more and more? Set up colonies?

Last edited by Gogo (2019-11-12 17:24:03)

mensrea · 2019-11-12 17:38:42

Had a terrible murder griefer kill two people who happened to be everyone in the town. I did survive and had a family of girls.

Joseph Stalin · 2019-11-12 17:54:05

I do like colonies, but now that babies spread per family will only hurt them.

DestinyCall · 2019-11-12 17:58:56

I'm perfectly happy with murder-free living.

PeebleCreek · 2019-11-12 18:42:01

I mostly just struggle to orient myself without the Rift, so I feel like I almost never interact with anyone from another town. Used to be I'd be born in one town, die, be born in another and be able to navigate between them based on how close to the edge they were. Now I just have no idea where anyone is so it feels like an empty lonely universe with just my own family.

I think if we just get some bell towers built it'll fix that, though.

Legs · 2019-11-12 19:09:05

Jusef and Blossom Giovanni. Two people from another family. Jusef wandered into town and happened to finish an approved gate for the community garden's fenced in area. He got chased out and came back with Blossom, a knife and baskets full of pie. They barricaded themselves inside while we stood guard at the gate. When they ran out of food Jusef stripped naked and greased himself up before running to our bakery for more food. Slippery little guy. When he returned an unarmed family member stumbled in through their gate. We had a tense hostage negotiation in gibberish. Stuff does still happen and you can find other families.

In general everyone's a lot more spread out though. Exploration feels much more like before the rift. You could go a thousand tiles searching along fault lines before you find another town. Or sometimes they're a few biomes over just past the edge of the spring tapout. I don't think it's that boring.

Don Holm · 2019-11-12 21:01:47

DestinyCall wrote:

I'm perfectly happy with murder-free living.

Same for me

Kaveh · 2019-11-12 23:31:38

Interesting. Yesterday I actually mentioned to a friend that I'm glad OHOL feels so much less bland now. The rift was fun to me for a while. Wars and trading were cool but eventually it all became the same old, short arcs that all started the same and ended the same.
Being outside feels much more open ended. Problems with resources will be there eventually when towns start growing more. I'm really excited for traveling east to find old civilizations and trying to build them up again. It's neat.
Danger is still there, but less in the form of other people going around killing (which to me felt like more of a nuisance than real danger, tbh) and more in the form of running out of water or maybe bears running around. Raids could also still happen if a group of people gets on horses and travels to find other towns. Shouldn't be that hard since we know the Eve pattern.

Last edited by Kaveh (2019-11-12 23:31:58)

jcwilk · 2019-11-13 00:57:50

My own experience with it is that it's very much missing instances of combat right now but I'm hoping that the current combat system is a placeholder. If this is as good as it gets then pvp combat should really just be removed entirely because it's only a griefing tool right now outside of pve.

But yeah survival is for sure too easy at the moment. The only reason families end typically is because of griefing. You can often see at the end of a family tree that the last few children were killed by a relative.

I was proudly watching my descendants (sugar family, i was the 144th generation, it got up to 160 something iirc) for hours on the site tree tool and they were crushing it until finally this morning I find that they were murdered by a relative and it was just like wow... One can be so much more impactful as a family-killing griefer than as a good mother, why am I wasting my time with the meme score when the world-impacting path is clearly only through griefing when everything just continues effortlessly otherwise? Effortless progression isn't interesting. Strife is interesting. The only path of strife is griefing, therefore the only interesting path in the game is griefing after things have settled. It's a griefing sim til combat gets a facelift QED

Keyin · 2019-11-13 01:42:00

The only real threat to living a full life once you've become an experienced player is other people.

Therefore, less people around you = easier to live to 60 if you're experienced.

Even in eve camps starvation wouldn't be a threat if it wasn't for your 5 sisters eating all the food within a 30 tile radius.

jcwilk · 2019-11-13 01:57:24

Keyin wrote:

The only real threat to living a full life once you've become an experienced player is other people.
Therefore, less people around you = easier to live to 60 if you're experienced.
Even in eve camps starvation wouldn't be a threat if it wasn't for your 5 sisters eating all the food within a 30 tile radius.

I don't think that experienced players face any threat at all as is, aside from being born into a very bad situation and doing griefing themselves... After camps are established I mean. Even dealing with griefers is more of a nuisance and source of need to rebuild things than a source of danger unless you afk. The generational flow is interesting though, at least regardless of how safe it gets there's still weird chaotic jumps and stops of generational families <3

Toxolotl · 2019-11-13 01:57:48

jcwilk wrote:

But yeah survival is for sure too easy at the moment. The only reason families end typically is because of griefing. You can often see at the end of a family tree that the last few children were killed by a relative.

I was about to mention something about your fam. Even though survival is much easier now, families are still incredibly vulnerable. Especially when the player population drops. Seemed like all the longest running lineages this week died out around the same time. Likely by the same hand.

If one person wants to kill off a family they dont have to put in much effort. With the rift when a family died off it would bolster the remaining family's spawns and make it more difficult to kill them off. Right now i feel like every family runs a little thin and it leaves them all vulnerable. Im pretty bummed that so many awesome towns have been lost because of this vulnerability.

I think an easy fix for this would be to ratio the amount of families to the player population. So if the population drops and a family dies out it would bolster the others instead of opening up new eve spawns. The populations of families have been so low that i have yet to spawn as a male the past few days, making exploring for other families a liability. Ive only had one male baby as well.

In terms of danger and excitement factors i think this could be mended by making the eve spiral tighter. So families have a higher chance of running into each other.

In terms of navigation i think if we can set up a bell tower it would work essentially like the rift borders, perhaps even better. Working like a compass and would make finding lost cities and towns much easier. Ive tried getting a bell tower going several times in several towns the last few days but it seems the families died out before they could be completed. Ill keep at it though.

Last edited by Toxolotl (2019-11-13 01:59:53)

fug · 2019-11-13 02:12:38

Gogo wrote:

In rift we had many griefers and killing, like... constantly. And problems with resources. It was too much. But now everybody lives happily, help each other. Sorry, but game gets more boring because of that. I lived like 10 lives and they were the same, I helped build town, almost nothing happens, not many difficulties.
No danger - no fun. And how you guys feel about it?
What is the present purpose of this game? Having kids and stay alive is super easy, towns are safe. Expanding them more and more? Set up colonies?

This game hasn't always been stabby stabby shift click murder simulator. Sure we've always had issues with trolls in the community but it wasn't until the sword was introduced did the dynamic switch from pve (more of what it is right now) to all the griefing murder shenanigans like the rift. To put in perspective how bad the original sword is you have the Michael Punch video which is the sword at maximum power (no click cooldown meaning four clicks and you instantly died)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont … e=emb_logo

And then you have my own video where the sword got a 10 second cooldown in between stabs but no slowdown.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTOOas0JH6g

To make the issue worse Eves spawned 40 tiles from villages which meant they would (and they would) spawn next to a city by forcing an Eve spawn, pick up a sword, then raze as much of the village as they could in one go. "Build fences like Jason wants!!11!!!1" and you know what happened? Eves blocked your gates or some idiot let them in anyways and boom. Uncursable mass genocide on demand by players who were either making a point or trying to ruin some fun.

These weren't good times and they certainly weren't fun times. You couldn't defend your family from these hit and run tactics and if someone skilled rolled up to shit on your day then your lineage got a steamer.

I have no idea why you'd find pvp or anything like that exciting in the current game as it's basically been completely neutered. Watch in the second video where people are tricked into walking around trees in order to bait them to certain tiles (this is back when combat required you to click someone and wasn't auto-aim all the time.) There's depth, and the dance rewards those who know the moves. Now combat is just a bunch of monkeys crawling at each other.

If pvp is going to be a dumbed down version of itself it shouldn't be in the forefront (this isn't a pvp game anyways) and it certainly shouldn't be what people expect from "a multiplayer game of parenting and civilization building"

jcwilk · 2019-11-13 02:19:29

Toxolotl wrote:

I was about to mention something about your fam. Even though survival is much easier now, families are still incredibly vulnerable. Especially when the player population drops. Seemed like all the longest running lineages this week died out around the same time. Likely by the same hand.
If one person wants to kill off a family they dont have to put in much effort. With the rift when a family died off it would bolster the remaining family's spawns and make it more difficult to kill them off. Right now i feel like every family runs a little thin and it leaves them all vulnerable. Im pretty bummed that so many awesome towns have been lost because of this vulnerability.
I think an easy fix for this would be to ratio the amount of families to the player population. So if the population drops and a family dies out it would bolster the others instead of opening up new eve spawns. The populations of families have been so low that i have yet to spawn as a male the past few days, making exploring for other families a liability. Ive only had one male baby as well.
In terms of danger and excitement factors i think this could be mended by making the eve spiral tighter. So families have a higher chance of running into each other.

Yeah good points I guess it could be said that staying alive in an established town, even with griefers, as an experienced player, is too trivial, but keeping your family alive (ie by preventing your less experienced family members from getting ganked) is too difficult and not in a fun way. Trying to bandaid the situation by making the existing system more or less extreme will just make one of those problems further exacerbated. Better self preservation would make griefers intolerable, more vulnerability would make griefers kill you.

As far as tweaking eve spawns, maybe, but that's fixing the issues of families dying out by simply forcing more babies in which doesn't feel right... The unsettled tension between griefers and defenders needs to be addressed to give griefer type players the incentive to band together as an actual town to successfully cause chaos towards others, rather than making the path of least resistance towards chaos being murdering your whole family as a lone teenager, which is boring and unrealistic.

We need better crime and punishment systems that don't require them to actually kill someone first (or attempt to if they don't start with the most afk target), we need raiding mechanics beyond declaring war and impenetrable perimeter fences to permit more interesting shades of gray in how trusted arbitrary players are, and we need more skill curve in combat to make victory meaningful rather than just chaotic and annoying.

jcwilk · 2019-11-13 02:25:08

fug wrote:

I have no idea why you'd find pvp or anything like that exciting in the current game as it's basically been completely neutered. Watch in the second video where people are tricked into walking around trees in order to bait them to certain tiles (this is back when combat required you to click someone and wasn't auto-aim all the time.) There's depth, and the dance rewards those who know the moves. Now combat is just a bunch of monkeys crawling at each other.
If pvp is going to be a dumbed down version of itself it shouldn't be in the forefront (this isn't a pvp game anyways) and it certainly shouldn't be what people expect from "a multiplayer game of parenting and civilization building"

So why have pvp at all then? Why not just remove it rather than leaving it there to be the main/only way that established families can end via some disappointing monkeys clawing at each other process, as you put it. If people can arbitrarily kill each other then there should be very fleshed out mechanisms around doing so in order to balance it, which seems appropriate given that violence is how power struggles work in those times. If that's not desired then we should stop pretending like the system works and pvp should be removed

fug · 2019-11-13 02:37:23

jcwilk wrote:

So why have pvp at all then? Why not just remove it rather than leaving it there to be the main/only way that established families can end via some disappointing monkeys clawing at each other process, as you put it. If people can arbitrarily kill each other then there should be very fleshed out mechanisms around doing so in order to balance it, which seems appropriate given that violence is how power struggles work in those times. If that's not desired then we should stop pretending like the system works and pvp should be removed

First off PVP should be fleshed out back into something skill intensive instead of the lobotomized version we have now. Back in my day the player who knew what they were doing won almost all the time but this of course meant entry into learning to do combat had high entry. Unless you knew the whole song and dance you were either the victim (like you are now with random attacks) or you put your foot down on meager trolls. Regardless of how anyone feels pvp should be it shouldn't be in the state it is right now.

Pvp is basically required in this game as otherwise you have no way to deal with someone who is causing trouble. Cursing only works after the person dies and unless you have a means to disable/kill then they'd proceed to continue causing harm. A good example of this right now is something like stone wall smashing (previous to them now having hungry work) You can't stop these people from destroying walls due to the ease of clicking down 10 walls then running. Unless you had an organized group waiting by the wall to attack the idiot he just gets to keep picking the walls as you're too slow to ever attack them solo.

Basically you need a way to deal with people who are purposely sabotaging things (destroying buildings as an example) or by accidentally sabotaging things (people who won't stop planting giant berry fields). If we didn't have PVP we'd need moderation and Jason + moderation go together about as well as a grease fire and water. Jason would have to moderate (which he doesn't want to do either way) to deal with people fucking up the server. The only time he's threatened anyone with a perma ban is for messing with the games cameras and not the people who purposely abused stuff like the butter knife to kill 50+ people in a day.

jcwilk · 2019-11-13 02:59:05

fug wrote:

jcwilk wrote:
So why have pvp at all then? Why not just remove it rather than leaving it there to be the main/only way that established families can end via some disappointing monkeys clawing at each other process, as you put it. If people can arbitrarily kill each other then there should be very fleshed out mechanisms around doing so in order to balance it, which seems appropriate given that violence is how power struggles work in those times. If that's not desired then we should stop pretending like the system works and pvp should be removed
First off PVP should be fleshed out back into something skill intensive instead of the lobotomized version we have now. Back in my day the player who knew what they were doing won almost all the time but this of course meant entry into learning to do combat had high entry. Unless you knew the whole song and dance you were either the victim (like you are now with random attacks) or you put your foot down on meager trolls. Regardless of how anyone feels pvp should be it shouldn't be in the state it is right now.

Pvp is basically required in this game as otherwise you have no way to deal with someone who is causing trouble. Cursing only works after the person dies and unless you have a means to disable/kill then they'd proceed to continue causing harm. A good example of this right now is something like stone wall smashing (previous to them now having hungry work) You can't stop these people from destroying walls due to the ease of clicking down 10 walls then running. Unless you had an organized group waiting by the wall to attack the idiot he just gets to keep picking the walls as you're too slow to ever attack them solo.
Basically you need a way to deal with people who are purposely sabotaging things (destroying buildings as an example) or by accidentally sabotaging things (people who won't stop planting giant berry fields). If we didn't have PVP we'd need moderation and Jason + moderation go together about as well as a grease fire and water. Jason would have to moderate (which he doesn't want to do either way) to deal with people fucking up the server. The only time he's threatened anyone with a perma ban is for messing with the games cameras and not the people who purposely abused stuff like the butter knife to kill 50+ people in a day.

Agree with everything you said except that I don't agree that combat is the -only- way that griefing/incompetence can be solved, but I agree it's the most straightforward way. I'd be interested to talk through some possible mechanics around property ownership and trespassing/stealing/razing having a similar slowdown/cooldown/notification effect as combat does currently, but that's a whole complex thing that would be challenging to make simple enough to execute in a small sub-hour timeframe... So yeah better combat certainly seems like the most logical approach to investigate more thoroughly before looking into more complex options.

Keyin · 2019-11-13 03:12:57

Well, just to put it out there, there's this cycle someone talked about where civilization has been in a loop for thousands of years.

Basically civilization building is very violent and it's advancement is like the stock market, with many periods of steep drops and fast growth.

Horsemen come from the east and subjugate/kill/enslave the locals. Generations go by and the conquerors cease their nomadic lifestyle, they become civilized and soft. Then a new wave of horsemen come from the east and the cycle continues.

Every new empire begins with the age of the pioneers, courageous individuals with passion and vision who conquer new territories

Next comes the age of affluence where the best cultural aspects/knowledge from the conquered and conquerors are combined to become an economic power house.

After affluence in the age of decadence (age we seem to be in most of the time), many people choose to behave in ways that are unsustainable, apparently unaware of the consequences
growing numbers are denied access to work; they can find no meaningful involvement in their community, so their potential goes unfulfilled. When people are prevented from fulfilling their potential, they often self-destruct

If no one from the outside is able and willing to conquer, a coup d'etat will happen to restore order.

This cycle usually takes about 250 years in real life. Year for year we'd expect some form of chaotic time of upheaval of the social order every 4 hours or so. That kind of does happen, once everything it built you search for meaning and can find none. Therefore you create chaos because your civilization no longer has to contend with outside threats; you turn on your own family or behave in ways that serve no one, embracing the nihilism Jason engendered into the game.

Really though what I was getting at in my first post is that life very quickly gets too easy. Living to 60 is easy as long as you don't have a griefer posse nearby or are born into a completely stripped-of-food eve camp. The environment poses no threat to an experienced player. When the environment no longer challenges a player(pve too easy), they seek challenge from players (pvp) so in order to discourage pvp the pve aspect of the game needs to be made more challenging.

floods/droughts/storms/disease/decay/temperature fluctuations/ pest control/climate change/permanent injuries/smart animals would all be welcome additions to make PvE more challenging, encourage more cooperation, and generate meaning so meaning doesn't have to be sought through griefing/trolling/pvp

No matter how many challenges are added to PvE it will become easy as long as it is very predictable, so chaotic and frequent aspects that make players adapt to the situation is probably needed to stave off intragroup conflict.

Last edited by Keyin (2019-11-13 03:17:32)

Lum · 2019-11-13 08:50:48

PeebleCreek wrote:

I mostly just struggle to orient myself without the Rift, so I feel like I almost never interact with anyone from another town. Used to be I'd be born in one town, die, be born in another and be able to navigate between them based on how close to the edge they were. Now I just have no idea where anyone is so it feels like an empty lonely universe with just my own family.
I think if we just get some bell towers built it'll fix that, though.

I experience the same thing without the rift. The rift created an enclosed environment where you could evolve between lives, meet other families, create alliances, mix populations, etc.

People said without the rift, each life would truly feel different. The opposite has happened to me. Each life is just repeating the same steps, in a lonely, single-family world, rather than achieving progress over several lives like one could do in the rift.

I've generally just lost my sense of excitement and orientation. I'm not interested in difficult crafts, so what's the use of my existence if there's no other families to play with, and if every village is similar?

Dodge · 2019-11-13 11:38:59

lel

Gomez · 2019-11-13 11:45:09

i preferred the smaller rift environment faster action and concentrated player locality made it much intense imo.

you'd be surprised how many death are player inflicted. beri famines are cause by other players...bear attacks caused by other players. rarely does the food supply break down without malicious intent behind it.

Kaveh · 2019-11-13 18:29:09

OHOL players in the rift: WE WANT FREEDOM
OHOL players w/ freedom: WE WANT THE RIFT

Anyway, put effort into growing your towns. Travel east to find others.
Perhaps eve spawns can be slightly closer to each other to introduce more interaction with other families?

wondible · 2019-11-13 19:05:10

Kaveh wrote:

OHOL players in the rift: WE WANT FREEDOM
OHOL players w/ freedom: WE WANT THE RIFT

There are different types of players with different preferences. (One of the challenges of this game is that it has changed a lot. People who like the current state get upset when it changes, and people who might like the new one already passed.)

One system I've seen is HEARTS, CLUBS, DIAMONDS, SPADES: PLAYERS WHO SUIT MUDS

Which has the breakdown

- Achievement within the game context
- Exploration of the game
- Socializing with others
- Imposition upon others (e.g. griefers)

Toxolotl · 2019-11-13 19:26:32

Kaveh wrote:

OHOL players in the rift: WE WANT FREEDOM
OHOL players w/ freedom: WE WANT THE RIFT

Its a minority who want the rift. Most of the statements ive seen being pro rift have had more to do with elements of the game that are weaker without it. I think the increased player base since it went away speaks for itself. Ive seen more effort put into towns and cooperation since it went away.

This game was not built to be a griefing sim. As it stands griefing is the easiest and cheapest way to play this game. I find that most people who grief are either frustrated with the game or dont appreciate the work of others. Violence in this game only gets in the way of progress.

I personally dont find being chased for 20 min with a knife fun. Most skilled griefers dont kill but instead sabotage elements of the town and watch it crumble around them. Its beyond annoying. I dont enjoy spending my entire life countering a griefer instead of progressing the town. This kind of adversity is toxic and contradicts the MO of this game. Its a small person who enjoys playing that way.

Keyin wrote:

Every new empire begins with the age of the pioneers, courageous individuals with passion and vision who conquer new territories

I think you're a bit confused here. Empires have never begun with pioneers. In fact there have been many cultures and empires destroyed by pioneers. History does not remember them well and there are resentments persisting to this day because of their actions. Visionaries on the other hand, sure. Through military strategy and persuasion they united territories. Alexander the great or Qin Shi Huang for example.

I think an easy way to fix this issue is to make the eve spiral tighter. So we are forced to deal with each other. As our territories expands we run into other families and unique interactions can be made. Perhaps this overlap will cause more scarcity and force players to war over resources and territories. Maybe a family is forced to venture into the unknown to build a new home to escape the chaos.

I traveled 1.5k yesterday to find another civilization. It took over half my life. I think we can all agree this is too far of a spread if unique interactions are going to take place.

Last edited by Toxolotl (2019-11-13 20:18:21)

Keyin · 2019-11-13 19:59:11

Toxolotl wrote:

I think you're a bit confused here. Empires have never begun with pioneers. In fact there have been many cultures and empires destroyed by pioneers. History does not remember them well and there are resentments persisting to this day because of their actions. Visionaries on the other hand, sure. Through military strategy and persuasion they united territories. Alexander the great or Qin Shi Huang for example.

First you quoted the wrong user.

Anyways,

Pioneer's usage has narrowed in usage to fewer contexts these days, and extended to new ones. There is a military aspect to the term pioneer. early 16th century (as a military term denoting a member of the infantry): from French pionnier ‘foot soldier, pioneer'.
History does not remember most of the cultures well because most did not write things down. Besides, if the cultures were truly completely destroyed there would be no resentments(no one left to complain, history written by the victors). Also, persuasion via coercion (i.e, nothing personal, join us or we'll crush you into submission')

Toxolotl wrote:

I traveled 1.5k yesterday to find another civilization. It took over half my life. I think we can all agree this is too far of a spread if unique interactions are going to take place.

1.5k is less than one mile though if each tile is one meter. I think buffing speed and field of view would be better

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What happened to danger in this game?

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