In this video...

jasonrohrer · 2020-04-17 05:37:55

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93Akl5ebdBs

The griefer team has something like 3 knives, and some arrows.

Where did they get 3 knives at such a young age?

This town is not following rule #2 from California's Weapon Safety Handbook: keep weapons under lock and key to prevent unauthorized access.

There were days in the distant past where a trusted elder kept the town knife in a backpack, and only lent it out in necessary circumstances. Files were even kept guarded to prevent more knives from being made.

The posse system has lulled you into a false sense of security.

Moses there at the end is still trying to work while everyone else gets slaughtered, and he is the victim of the same fate, in the end.

There is safety in numbers, though, and the good folks outnumbered the griefers. Why did they have no weapons in reserve? Why did they have no leader to guide them through private orders so they could organize? Why did they have no panic room?

This 3-person team might be /die spamming to end up near each other, and this week, I'm blocking those folks from contributing to a posse in their next life (just like I block twins from contributing to a posse). People who are /die spamming to be born together really are essentially twins. The detection happens whenever your last life was less than 20 minutes long. Then you can't be in a posse in your next life (well, you can be in it, but you don't count toward the min posse size).

But every time I patch another one of these "holes" for you.... holes that you have the tools and power to patch yourselves.... I feel....

Whatever · 2020-04-17 05:41:27

jasonrohrer wrote:

This town is not following rule #2 from California's Weapon Safety Handbook: keep weapons under lock and key to prevent unauthorized access.

yes, all griefing could be prevented if people would use property fences.
property fences are amazing

Gogo · 2020-04-17 06:27:11

Got it. To save my village I need to roleplay as prince who's making harem. Then stash all females inside a property!

fug · 2020-04-17 06:31:22

Jason being goofy once again.

Back in my day the good guys had the actual power and weren't forced into just running or dying. I remember being able to take away weapons from these kinds of idiots and being able defend against attacks from bad players.

Why do you think three organized people in discord were able to murder 12~ or so different people?

"Hey guys ann" "ibella is grief" "ing and killing" "everyone" vs "Hey guys, lets all target so and so. You go and shout join so confused people don't know what is going on." Even if I could have communicated properly at the time I would have just been stabbed even faster.

You also have people trying to actually solve the food problem so they're distracted by trying to feed the town while the trolls are murdering and targeting. How do you expect a bunch of starving unorganized players to stay on top of three people feeding each other and protecting each other? Oh yeah we just need to put fences around their vaginas to prevent births!

You're patching holes in a crappy system is the problem. Instead of saying "Oh shit, a 15 second cooldown weapon with full running speed is OP I better fix that" you said "Oh shit, a system based around outsmarting your opponent we can't have that!"

Even if they didn't have knives they could have created arrows and bows as children to enable this sort of slaughter anyways. So instead of continuing to rant lets look at the problems.

1). Communication. Even when I exactly knew who was griefing and what they were doing it was impossible for me to tell anyone as I was too young in the first place.

2). Curses aren't effective in these situations. For one, you need to be old enough to curse and you're not going to have three curses when this exact situation comes up. In fact, I had to walk back in a second life to curse one out of the three players.

3). As a target you have no idea how many people are required to target you to attack you. I thought our 16~ population meant we couldn't be stabbed by less than 4 people. Jk, three targeted me and I died without knowing what the magic number was.

4). The posse system can't normally catch someone on a horse. We've all seen some asshole stealing shit or riding around with a horse to be a pest. Getting four people to form a posse is hard enough but you're still tied for speed with a horse rider meaning unless they fuck up you can't catch them.

5). Biome immunity and dying in bad biomes. Get far enough into a bad biome either on horse or foot and you become invulnerable. If you die in a bad biome your name becomes unreadable ex: hovering over a skeleton in a bad biome gives scorching desert instead of a name. This also allows you to dump your gear where no one can get it.

6). It's impossible to even deal with a threat solo should you find them in the woods due to having both slowdown AND a 15 second wait or whatever it is. I ended up finding one of those three alone on a horse but because of the long wait they just ran off. Ended up swap item tricking them for an engine and horse though because these kids are idiots abusing a dumb system.

At least in the old system (with balanced weapons) you at worst traded one for one with a griefer by removing them and being stabbed by an idiot townie. In the new system you are at the mercy of when the trolls decide they want to team up and stab a family to death.

Also I like the part of the video where they cut out me shit talking them but hey, they're the better players after all :^)

Toxic · 2020-04-17 06:40:24

Jason you don't understand the mindset of a griefer and the mindset of a regular player. The griefer will always find an exploit in your systems and giving them an advantage is foolish.

The posse makes greifing easy, I could gather an organised group of griefers on discord in about 10 mins and start griefing every town active. However 10 random people that are busy playing the game will be left in confusion as to who is the griefer and what is going on making it easy for 3 griefers to kill the 10 towns folk. Griefing was actually harder then it is now when solo killing was a thing as one good player could kill the griefers if given the chance.

3 organised griefers will always be greater then 10 random players

Last edited by Toxic (2020-04-17 06:41:20)

Gogo · 2020-04-17 06:46:06

Players sucks at organizing.

Roosty knife · 2020-04-17 07:58:15

Jason thinks that the problem is in us, the normal players. Not in his poor mechanics. Yeah, sure. Insult more your player base, make yourself "looking better". Who will fix the "hole" in your head?

Last edited by Roosty knife (2020-04-17 08:03:52)

Coconut Fruit · 2020-04-17 08:05:03

I'm saying it again, but I liked old killing system mechanics with no countdown and posse required. People cared about having lots of healing pads, about having many red cross aprons and healers. With the old system we could easily heal the good people and kill the bad guys in this scenario. Even if someone was trying to grief all healing pads by making them dirty, we could react right away and stop them from doing this, we also had pads in our aprons.

I know you love property fences, but... I don't. I actually dislike them, furthermore I'm even scared to use them as people keep cursing for using them. And what could we do in this situation to prevent griefers from killing us? Lock whole smithing? If smithing wasn't locked they would just make another knives. Lock all iron? Even if smithing was locked they could just make new adobe kiln.

I played this game a lot and I know people don't like property fences too. That's why there are no property fences around things.

Last edited by Coconut Fruit (2020-04-17 08:16:44)

JackTreehorn · 2020-04-17 08:43:06

We could handle griefers with the old system because killing happened often.
Retribution kills were possible and happened often.
Solo killing frequently occurred and people were vigilant, making pads, locking up weapons.

Now killing happens rarely and when it does it kills the whole town like what happened in the video (A team of griefers).
We cannot mount a defence because they can zoom out see us warning people and hunt us down.
Usually the best defence in that situation is to run away and wait for them to kill off the town, get bored and die before returning.
However the homeland update has made that harder as we cannot have kids outside the homeland, thus we get old with no kids before they die out.

Having property fences to deal with inter-family griefers is not the right answer, as the griefers are planned to receive the gate access anyway.
Would an elder have said no if one of those griefers asked them to use a knife or asked for gate access?
And if an elder did say no which is unlikely what would be the chances of the town turning on that elder calling them a horder or griefer?

In my opinion it was better when a griefer could solo kill then get killed. They got their thrill then got killed, no need to organise a team to wipe out a town.
Before the worst griefers we had were the evil Duo of Ziv and Kill, now every murderer has at least two people backing them up.

Last edited by JackTreehorn (2020-04-17 08:48:10)

Alterior · 2020-04-17 09:31:58

I imagine the village the keeps their knife locked away is sooner or later going to die of starvation because they can't process the sheep to make the pies or cut the bread quickly enough.
We are still at the point where waves of villagers are dying out during the lows of food production, the player base hasn't completely adapted to the new food situation. Organisation is difficult when everyone is starving, though I gotta admit watching villages that stand around the fire doing nothing die of starvation is beautiful.

Even if we do switch to play with a single knife or a weapons locker, what is to stop a griefer group making a bow and taking out the key/knife carrier first?
How does the weapons locker village respond in a timely fashion to the player that leads a few bears into the town?

Additionally, locks use a lot of iron, iron is very precious at the moment. More precious than a lot of players realise. A knife, as far as I know, cannot be dissembled and scrapped to keep the numbers under control. The damned blade for the Newcomen bore continues to disappear though.
Right now identifying a perpetrator is a difficult task that nobody has time for during the scramble for the next meal and/or round of water.
There is a ginger village that has been surviving solely on water brought back from swamps by horse and cart, which is just crazy. That thing has been going for days without rubber (which I think is good, rubber shouldn't play into a newcomen in my opinion, at least not so often).

There are a lot of new players around at the moment, many of whom don't know how to use a smith at all and fear trying for lack of resources.
I don't really have the time or iron to teach them anymore either. To stand still long enough to teach a new slow player a smith is death at the moment.

These griefers are organised and intentional. Their point is that the new system leaves a village completely vulnerable to a group of three organized griefers.

A one knife policy doesn't solve that particular problem. Is the ability to organise the systematic murder of an entire village intended gameplay? If a knife is supposed to be the "I don't want to play with you" tool, should it not come with something similar to a curse? I notice some misfired(?) curses in that video too, standing right in front of the guy with the bloody knife, saying curse you and cursing the stabbed player. As well as children without enough letters to curse their killer.

There is more grief that a village is vulnerable to. I have had a new village wiped out by a player grabbing the only bow and 3 arrows to go hunt bears, only to have them lead three bears back to the village and literally laugh maniacally as the village is slaughtered by the bear trio.

I have had a village wiped out by a pie thief, who does nothing but stand by the pies, waiting for the moment to ferry a basket of pies away to hide behind a tree. Or just load up a horse and leave the village to starve. A way to dismount a rider might be useful. Like a pair of bolas or something, or even just a repurpose of the existing lasso with a hungry work cost to hold a player in place or lead them like a horse while the rope is held. Just so the village can have its trial.

Speaking of lasso the ability to use one while on a horse would be nice. Having to head out on foot every time you want a new horse can be painful, nevermind when it comes time to trade them. It'd make blacks a race of riders rather than a race than rides in on horseback and spends their life walking home.

Coconut Fruit · 2020-04-17 10:16:14

Alterior wrote:

A knife, as far as I know, cannot be dissembled and scrapped

It can.

Yeah, making bows is also easy, even if knives were hidden in a property, even if iron and smithing was hidden in property, griefers would just kill the person who has the gate access with bows they made and get the knives, or just keep killing with bows if they had enough arrows.

Caprys · 2020-04-17 11:13:26

You want us to have leaders, to use property fences. Oke, we will do that. If you give us a blessing system. The problem that we have is that we don't know who we can trust. How can we choose a leader when all we have is a random group of strangers. How does a leader choose a succesor if there is only a random group of strangers. Who will you give gate acces if you don't know who you can trust? Choosing a leader, getting to trust someone takes time. Time we don't have. By the time you recognise that one with leader quality that person is almost always already old. But if we would have a blessing system then we could bless that person and then we could recognise that person in a next life and follow him or her.

Ruben · 2020-04-17 11:43:52

They succeed because they work as a team. There's a difference in identifying as a team rather than a loose coupled group of people.

As you have guessed, it seems like the griefers win because it just happens so rarely. The fight to survive with food outweights the risk of being griefed. Do you financially prepare yourself for war IRL? Nobody does, those are rare events that you do not prepare yourself for, because believing in your fellow players is way too important, you take it for granted, because distrust in everyone is a heavy burden.

Also, I hate the knife, as it is a tool and a weapon at once.

Then there's the fact that killing happens so fast, and communication is so slow.

No validation that griefers actually 'go to hell' is also unsatisfying. It feels like there is no judge. It should feel like a banhammer, casting the killer out of the village, exiling them into the wild (cannot enter family grounds for example).

Also, killing always has 100% success. Of course, stabbing someone almost always leads to certain death. But at least you can run for your life! Carrying different items should apply everso slight movement slows. Almost always, fast movement is not required when using tools. Killer mobs would have to hunt others down strategically (like wolves).

Pulling out a knife in public should also be fear inducing, because, why would anyone need a knife in public? Likewise, finding someone with a machete in the dense jungle is no big deal, as its purpose is pretty clear. How can we utilize this? Simply by sheathing the knife in a special place, other than the bagpack. So that there's no mistaking in drawing your knife or pulling out other stuff out of your pockets. Drawing weapons can also make characteristic sounds. Carrying knives in your hand should feel unnatural.

Give people time to react to the stabbing. There's no way i can shear a sheep, boil water and peepare needle and thread in time. Being able to put water over a small fire directly, rather than having to wait for hot coals, would make a huge difference.

All these little factors play a role in making it seem realistic.

Edit: Why is killing players not hungry work? I would think that stabbing someone requires at least some energy. It's a workaround for cooldowns.

Last edited by Ruben (2020-04-17 12:06:10)

MrGold · 2020-04-17 12:22:38

Gogo wrote:

Players sucks at organizing.

Best part it's so true!

Don Holm · 2020-04-17 12:52:05

Dude we are starving non stop, no food in towns, no food in the wild, water and iron are more precious than diamond, and here we are are discussing why we are not "organized".

st2019 · 2020-04-17 14:30:58

Curse them.
Die.
Click Join again.

Whats the problem?

fug · 2020-04-17 14:40:06

st2019 wrote:

Curse them.
Die.
Click Join again.
Whats the problem?

Cant curse if too young.
Cant curse all three
Have to walk back into their range to curse them if you were stabbed as a kid.

st2019 · 2020-04-17 14:45:36

fug wrote:

st2019 wrote:
Curse them.
Die.
Click Join again.
Whats the problem?
Cant curse if too young.
Cant curse all three
Have to walk back into their range to curse them if you were stabbed as a kid.

There were enough adult grown players.
There were enough adult grown players.
There were enough adult grown players, no need to follow them.

But I agree in a missing command, especially in this trouble: "I Curse My Killer". That would help in such situations.

Last edited by st2019 (2020-04-17 14:48:42)

MrGold · 2020-04-17 14:48:56

Well we have a system to stop them *cursing* so what is the problem nothing really...... just curse them a few times and they are dead for another 30 days

Spoonwood · 2020-04-17 14:57:08

jasonrohrer wrote:

But every time I patch another one of these "holes" for you.... holes that you have the tools and power to patch yourselves.... I feel....

You feel what? And why does what you feel come as worthwhile to express at all? You aren't designing a game for your feelings, or if you are, then you certainly aren't designing a game for the level appeal that you said before you wanted. You're one person. You have the feelings of one person. That's all. That's all you get and that's all you'll ever have.

Your claim that players could handle this sort of problem is based on sheer a priori speculation. It's not based on you trying to do so. Nor on the basis of some group that has tried to do so and failed.

Also, you let Bobo stay around. He wasn't banned, even though information on his kill count isn't difficult to obtain. He didn't get moved permanently to a different server away from new players or away from peaceful players. You've gone with a one-size-fits-all system, even though people do differ substantially, and thus respond better with different social environments available. And players don't have any choice about how to never have to deal with a player like Bobo.

The problem as in many other situations is lack of player choice.

If you had a no-kill server avoiding players like Bobo would be simple.

Spoonwood · 2020-04-17 14:59:48

MrGold wrote:

Well we have a system to stop them *cursing* so what is the problem nothing really...... just curse them a few times and they are dead for another 30 days

To echo Fug... there's no ability to curse until the player can spell a certain number of letters. And no one has three curse tokens. There's no way to curse all of a posse.

Last edited by Spoonwood (2020-04-17 15:00:01)

FishRfriendsnotfood · 2020-04-17 15:11:10

Jason wants US to take responsibility, when there is ONE vet and 9 new players. Jason don't be so obtuse. Not every player joins forums and discord. New players have no idea about property fences and if they do, someone has probably cursed them for trying to make a property fence.
You seem to forget about new players....like they don't matter. You cater to a few vets and then when griefers take advantage of the system, it's our fault. How pompously arrogant to not take responsibility for your own short comings as a dev.

Jamie · 2020-04-17 15:31:32

Ok boomer.

Cantface · 2020-04-17 15:32:28

FishRfriendsnotfood wrote:

You cater to a few vets and then when griefers take advantage of the system, it's our fault. How pompously arrogant to not take responsibility for your own short comings as a dev.

Agree 1000%, what a huge shit-show.

pein · 2020-04-17 15:37:18

jasonrohrer wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93Akl5ebdBs
The griefer team has something like 3 knives, and some arrows.
Where did they get 3 knives at such a young age?
This town is not following rule #2 from California's Weapon Safety Handbook: keep weapons under lock and key to prevent unauthorized access.
There were days in the distant past where a trusted elder kept the town knife in a backpack, and only lent it out in necessary circumstances. Files were even kept guarded to prevent more knives from being made.
The posse system has lulled you into a false sense of security.
Moses there at the end is still trying to work while everyone else gets slaughtered, and he is the victim of the same fate, in the end.
There is safety in numbers, though, and the good folks outnumbered the griefers. Why did they have no weapons in reserve? Why did they have no leader to guide them through private orders so they could organize? Why did they have no panic room?

This 3-person team might be /die spamming to end up near each other, and this week, I'm blocking those folks from contributing to a posse in their next life (just like I block twins from contributing to a posse). People who are /die spamming to be born together really are essentially twins. The detection happens whenever your last life was less than 20 minutes long. Then you can't be in a posse in your next life (well, you can be in it, but you don't count toward the min posse size).

But every time I patch another one of these "holes" for you.... holes that you have the tools and power to patch yourselves.... I feel....

Knives are needed for food processing, bread, mango, pork, sheep, bread.

Hiding them won't really solve the issue. You seem to disregard the chaos and the pace we play. You can't spend a life with locking all up, you lose a lot of time doing so and others lose a lot of time going around it.

Teamwork is not needed, teaming up is pure roleplay, for the most part, people got no information about who is their most experienced player and who is their smartest player. Loyalty comes from roleplay elements, like being someone's kid, people don't care about right or wrong, they just care about their relations.

Weapon pickup age is what itt is for a weird reason as you once said (you having your first knife at 8 and you daughter doing archery at 11)
For gameplay reasons, it should be higher than that.

Griefers don't care, I'm sure they just ate the berries so the others starve and mostly they will take all the pies at once. They don't have to produce, a lot of others just live off other accomplishments. We don't own things, we just stash some of it for ourselves.
We don't have to buy territory, we just claim it and it's easy to miss for others, we don't own the things we craft, and others can finish the crafting so it's even bad for a point system.

A point system could technically show your best-suited players and a democratic election could choose one of them as a leader and he could have real power over others, we can't manage to solve this all on our own, 50 people die and come back, every minute there are new players in the camp, can't keep track of it.

The tool system was a failure. You wanted to enforce teamwork, you did not. All you managed to do is slowing down veterans and limiting options, it's even more annoying because now you got to do jobs nobody willing to and locks your options for that life.

If you got a PVP then it's not part of the job system. The best example I saw was The West fro innogames, you could have a lot of money and xp from duels, but everybody naturally had some skill on duels so it wasn't a done deal, it came with risks, people choosing duelling skills were bad at working and people choosing work skills were bad at duels.

The most important part: a weapon should not count toward the slot limit. Maybe you would need to choose the bow or the knife, not both, but it's essential for the defence to have one at least in case you need it, you can't play all hour-long preparing for something that might not happen especially if it cost you more than doing nothing and hoping for the best. Not having slots to avenge players or heal them is quite bad design since it has nothing to do with jobs or teamwork.
There are several ways to grief a town if they can't ruin the sheep pen they just kill all sheep if they cant kill someone they just annoy him.

There are the utterly peaceful players and the troublemakers, some refuse to pick up a weapon and kill others, some even heal the griefers over and over and try to talk it out. Some just don't have the vision of the place and the ability to navigate through the world properly, they don't know whats going on and they don't want to be part of it.

Leaders are not chosen by skill and you removed skill from duels. I remember killing troublemakers, 1-2 each life, now I can't do it without support so I don't do it at all, let them do it, I get cursed or killed if I'm part of it, better just starve to death.
I even stood a chance against triplets, taking them down one by one with superior skill and strategy.

You raised the bar, but people won't go in the game group, only with bad intentions, most normal players won't talk to many people and not about how to save the town from group killers.

The ability to dodge shots and stabs was nice, it gave almost equal chances to both sides. The sides are just sides, opinions, no clear good and bad. So giving the advantage to attackers makes this mini game a big brother style vote out, doesn't necessarily mean that they are right.
You should ake a system where skill matters a bit, a tiny bit of luck also matters, and tthey forced to duel in a controlled manner, like an arena.

Player A challenges player B to a duel.
Player B declines and gets a debuff like a slowdown until he accepts it.
If player A wins a duel, player B can be disarmed any time or forced to move out of certain territories (if alive).
I don't think killing is necessary, not always at least.

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