Abuse by Griefers

JonySky · 2020-09-24 13:45:30

HumanPerson wrote:

Starknight_One wrote:
Jason thinks that 'griefer' is an important role in the village. I expect there will *never* be a strong mechanic for preventing griefing.
Seriously, though, that's a *stupid* concept. It's like saying that poker needs cheaters at every table. Griefers *don't care* about the village, their family, or anything in game except getting a rise out of other players. Why should that be rewarded?
The solution to grief-cursing is to limit the range of curses to 'within earshot' (basically the map chunk you're on). If your target is outside that area, you get a ping message saying 'no target found' and your curse token remains available. Simple, easy, expedient... and you can't curse someone just because you know they're streaming (unless you happen to be in their area).
'Antagonist' is a role that is needed for drama, but relying on griefers to do that is like using dynamite to clean your sink.
Are you serious? Is this really the case?

yep

HumanPerson · 2020-09-24 13:55:50

JonySky wrote:

yep

I shouldn't be surprised. What a shame.

I guess community cannot stand in the way of a vision, can it.

Last edited by HumanPerson (2020-09-24 13:57:00)

DestinyCall · 2020-09-24 14:03:36

HumanPerson wrote:

Starknight_One wrote:
Jason thinks that 'griefer' is an important role in the village. I expect there will *never* be a strong mechanic for preventing griefing.
Seriously, though, that's a *stupid* concept. It's like saying that poker needs cheaters at every table. Griefers *don't care* about the village, their family, or anything in game except getting a rise out of other players. Why should that be rewarded?
The solution to grief-cursing is to limit the range of curses to 'within earshot' (basically the map chunk you're on). If your target is outside that area, you get a ping message saying 'no target found' and your curse token remains available. Simple, easy, expedient... and you can't curse someone just because you know they're streaming (unless you happen to be in their area).
'Antagonist' is a role that is needed for drama, but relying on griefers to do that is like using dynamite to clean your sink.
Are you serious? Is this really the case?

If you are asking if it is true that Jason thinks "griefer" is a valid role in the game, yes, that is apparently true. Or at least, a designer friend of his suggested the idea and it stuck in his mind.

https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=6126

As Starknight_One indicated, I believe Jason hopes that toxic players can serve the role of "antagonist" for the more peaceful and constructive villagers. Fighting against griefers and overcoming against them as one of the inherent challenges within the game. Jason has made multiple posts mentioning that he has given us many tools to deal with the griefer problem ourselves, but we still keep complaining about griefers and it is very frustrating.

And here is the post where one griefer publicly celebrated repeatedly cursing a streamer, inspiring Jason to permanently limited the distance on cursing:

https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=6075

Jason mentions how he doesn't want to get rid of killing, because without killing, we can't have police. There's something wrong with that statement, but I just can't quite put my finger on it. Perhaps because I live in the United States.

He also mentions his hope that property fences would some day replace cursing and solve the griefing problem. He had such hope for property fences.

HumanPerson · 2020-09-24 14:23:36

DestinyCall wrote:

...

This is such devastating news, but it's all out there, there is no sugarcoating it. I cannot escape a feeling of no longer having any hope for this project and concluding that the fun part comes against the wishes of it's owner and creator.

What a shame.

EDIT: the property fence thing cannot possibly work under current conditions. Would the griefer willingly enter a jail cell? Would they then stand there and be fed until death or would they starve and be born outside of cell to grief more. Would bbs be brought into the cell and let out once they have somehow proven they are not a griefer? What is the idea here other than a very short term and quite meaningless jail time. Oh right, griefers are one of the pillars of the community.

Last edited by HumanPerson (2020-09-24 14:28:33)

JonySky · 2020-09-24 14:28:06

HumanPerson wrote:

DestinyCall wrote:
...
This is such devastating news, but it's all out there, there is no sugarcoating it. I cannot escape a feeling of no longer having any hope for this project and concluding that the fun part comes against the wishes of it's owner and creator.
What a shame.

welcome to the family
You may feel disappointed and believe me I understand, but you are not alone, I guarantee it!

HumanPerson · 2020-09-24 14:31:25

JonySky wrote:

welcome to the family
You may feel disappointed and believe me I understand, but you are not alone, I guarantee it!

Thank you, we wouldn't want to inconvenience criminals or god forbid prevent them from actively harming innocent players who for most part cannot do anything to stop it.

DestinyCall · 2020-09-24 14:51:03

HumanPerson wrote:

JonySky wrote:
welcome to the family
You may feel disappointed and believe me I understand, but you are not alone, I guarantee it!
Thank you, we wouldn't want to inconvenience criminals or god forbid prevent them from actively harming innocent players who for most part cannot do anything to stop it.

Just put everything you care about inside property fences. Griefers can't hurt you, if you are inside a property fence. Griefers can't steal from you if your stuff is inside a property fence. It goes without saying that all your babies should also be put inside their own property fences. If they turn out to be good babies, you could even give them gate access when they grow up. And bears can't reach you inside property fences, so that's good too.

Property fences solve everything. Fence the world.

Dodge · 2020-09-24 15:06:42

Many people are caricaturing jason's word or vision or simply misunderstand it, obviously he doesn't want the game to be griefed to the ground to the point where players leave because of this but he still wants the game to have interesting stories made by the players and motivated by the game.

So living a life where you have to fight off a thief to save your own village from dying and even chase him to his own village and then start a discussion with that other civilisation to understand their motivation and come to agreement peaceful or not is more interesting than farming wheat and making pies for 60 minutes.

Where i disagree with him is that he seems to think that pure and random griefing should be part of the game (could be wrong on that one) and that it makes it interesting, maybe not since he implemented a curse system, in my opinion it's only interesting if it has a reason that is motivated by the game, for example stealing to make your own family survive as opposed to just stealing randomly and then trashing all the stuff far far away where nobody will find it ever again.

Also there's a bunch of issues with the game that just makes it uninteresting to even deal with these situation in the first place.

But if you just think for 2 seconds it's obvious that he doesn't want players to have a bad experience of the game and quit but he also doesn't want to have a boring game where nothing happens and you just mindlessly craft stuff for 1 hour. It's not his goal for this game, there's plenty of other games that are like that.

Léonard · 2020-09-24 15:30:16

Arcurus wrote:

i for my part read the steam comments first and bought a piece of art knowing what it is....

You almost made false advertising look okay there for a second.. congrats.

Last edited by Léonard (2020-09-24 15:30:55)

Arcurus · 2020-09-24 15:48:11

HumanPerson wrote:

Starknight_One wrote:
Jason thinks that 'griefer' is an important role in the village. I expect there will *never* be a strong mechanic for preventing griefing.
Seriously, though, that's a *stupid* concept. It's like saying that poker needs cheaters at every table. Griefers *don't care* about the village, their family, or anything in game except getting a rise out of other players. Why should that be rewarded?
The solution to grief-cursing is to limit the range of curses to 'within earshot' (basically the map chunk you're on). If your target is outside that area, you get a ping message saying 'no target found' and your curse token remains available. Simple, easy, expedient... and you can't curse someone just because you know they're streaming (unless you happen to be in their area).
'Antagonist' is a role that is needed for drama, but relying on griefers to do that is like using dynamite to clean your sink.
Are you serious? Is this really the case?

Jasons statement to that was, that banning people based on looking on logged data is a very time consuming process which he does not want to spend time on. He wants players give the tools to take care themselves.

For sure he could reduce the most used ways of grieving, but normally he does not, his argument is, if he changes one he needs to change more, but instead he wants to provide better tools for stopping grieving instead.

Later up to now does not work well... but its quite hard to change Jasons opinion on something...

And yes for sure the game lacks late game challenges or general more challenges then outrunning water...

Formerly there was some kind of war but there was no reason to have war except for entertainment.

Last edited by Arcurus (2020-09-24 15:50:16)

HumanPerson · 2020-09-24 15:52:26

DestinyCall wrote:

HumanPerson wrote:
JonySky wrote:
welcome to the family
You may feel disappointed and believe me I understand, but you are not alone, I guarantee it!
Thank you, we wouldn't want to inconvenience criminals or god forbid prevent them from actively harming innocent players who for most part cannot do anything to stop it.
Just put everything you care about inside property fences. Griefers can't hurt you, if you are inside a property fence. Griefers can't steal from you if your stuff is inside a property fence. It goes without saying that all your babies should also be put inside their own property fences. If they turn out to be good babies, you could even give them gate access when they grow up. And bears can't reach you inside property fences, so that's good too.
Property fences solve everything. Fence the world.

Problem is what I care about is prosperity of the community. I will only live one hour and I have to make the most of it so that I leave the world better than I found it. At least I though that's the idea.

Tho I suppose we could build an elaborate system of progressively larger and more complex property fence enclosures. It would take 59 minutes to go through and at the end you get to die free, unable to grief people.

JonySky · 2020-09-24 15:59:55

Arcurus wrote:

HumanPerson wrote:
Starknight_One wrote:
Jason thinks that 'griefer' is an important role in the village. I expect there will *never* be a strong mechanic for preventing griefing.
Seriously, though, that's a *stupid* concept. It's like saying that poker needs cheaters at every table. Griefers *don't care* about the village, their family, or anything in game except getting a rise out of other players. Why should that be rewarded?
The solution to grief-cursing is to limit the range of curses to 'within earshot' (basically the map chunk you're on). If your target is outside that area, you get a ping message saying 'no target found' and your curse token remains available. Simple, easy, expedient... and you can't curse someone just because you know they're streaming (unless you happen to be in their area).
'Antagonist' is a role that is needed for drama, but relying on griefers to do that is like using dynamite to clean your sink.
Are you serious? Is this really the case?
Jasons statement to that was, that banning people based on looking on logged data is a very time consuming process which he does not want to spend time on. He wants players give the tools to take care themselves.
For sure he could reduce the most used ways of grieving, but normally he does not, his argument is, if he changes one he needs to change more, but instead he wants to provide better tools for stopping grieving instead.
Later up to now does not work well... but its quite hard to change Jasons opinion on something...
And yes for sure the game lacks late game challenges or general more challenges then outrunning water...
Formerly there was some kind of war but there was no reason to have war except for entertainment.

I'm sorry to tell you that something is wrong with your great argument defending Jason's work ...
Tell me, if Jason doesn't want wars or griefers ... why does this exist ?:

https://onetech.info/3047-War-Sword-oth … ge_55-tool
https://onetech.info/1789-Abused-Pit-Bull
https://onetech.info/1339-Domestic-Boar
https://onetech.info/4199-Box-of-Scrap- … st-smashed

his piece of art is full of contradictions

and there have never been wars because the game is not designed for wars to exist, not even the game engine allows wars !!
the swords of war were implemented because the OHOL design is improvised and there is no clear goal, it was just yet another failed experiment
(used by griefers to abuse the player base)

that's why the last update implements a racing car and tomorrow maybe it implements a tank or a bazooka! we are not going anywhere because there is no development planning

Last edited by JonySky (2020-09-24 16:13:35)

HumanPerson · 2020-09-24 16:15:29

Dodge wrote:

Many people are caricaturing jason's word or vision or simply misunderstand it, obviously he doesn't want the game to be griefed to the ground to the point where players leave because of this but he still wants the game to have interesting stories made by the players and motivated by the game.
So living a life where you have to fight off a thief to save your own village from dying and even chase him to his own village and then start a discussion with that other civilisation to understand their motivation and come to agreement peaceful or not is more interesting than farming wheat and making pies for 60 minutes.
Where i disagree with him is that he seems to think that pure and random griefing should be part of the game (could be wrong on that one) and that it makes it interesting, maybe not since he implemented a curse system, in my opinion it's only interesting if it has a reason that is motivated by the game, for example stealing to make your own family survive as opposed to just stealing randomly and then trashing all the stuff far far away where nobody will find it ever again.
Also there's a bunch of issues with the game that just makes it uninteresting to even deal with these situation in the first place.
But if you just think for 2 seconds it's obvious that he doesn't want players to have a bad experience of the game and quit but he also doesn't want to have a boring game where nothing happens and you just mindlessly craft stuff for 1 hour. It's not his goal for this game, there's plenty of other games that are like that.

Sounds reasonable. I believe I have become allergic to the word 'vision' in recent years. It is often used as a means of saying 'shut up I dont care what you think' to often reasonable requests and complaints. It inherently carries negative annotations since it essentially says that nobody but you can ever have a good idea. Very rarely is this the case. Where I come from we say 'more heads, more knowledge'. Tho I was upset at the moment, I didn't mean it as a low insult.

The distinction between drama griefers (who try to entertain others) and perverted griefers (who try to entertain their unfulfilled desires to harm other beings) is an important one. It would not be crazy to assume that when people refer to griefers, they refer specifically to perverted griefers. Those need to be dealt with. Those are what is seriously harming this game. Most people won't complain about a bit of drama if there is any reason or intrigue to it. But an idiot taking cartloads of supplies in the forest... there is no reason or intrigue. And it will only entertain exactly one person.

Dodge · 2020-09-24 16:20:48

He does want wars to happen or at least a game where wars might happen due to circumstances in the game he doesn't necessarly want the game to revolve around it since it's not a game about just killing like call of duty, fortnite etc but it's still a game about survival, civilisations etc and wars can happen due to disagreement between these civilisations or ressources or any other reason.

He pictures a game where any reasonnable scenario could happen like for example becoming a spy and infiltrate another village, gain their trust and finally steal some important key ressource or gather vital information.

Wars can happen and did happen in human history and he wants it part of the game or at least a possibility, now as for the reasons for it and wether it makes sense in the current game it is very far from it, currently the game is at best a crafting game with a parenting twist on it, we are very far from having these interesting stories that jason envisions and trying to force them to happen like with the biome restriction update is not the way to go.

HumanPerson · 2020-09-24 16:29:09

Arcurus wrote:

Jasons statement to that was, that banning people based on looking on logged data is a very time consuming process which he does not want to spend time on. He wants players give the tools to take care themselves.
For sure he could reduce the most used ways of grieving, but normally he does not, his argument is, if he changes one he needs to change more, but instead he wants to provide better tools for stopping grieving instead.

I agree that doing it manually is a bad solution, for any dev. The idea of anti-griefer community tools is good and could quite reasonably work, it just needs more balance and harsher punishments for notorious offenders. Lower the amount of curses required each time you get over the limit, so that if you have successfully been banished, it takes less effort to banish you next time. Make it so the moment you cross the threshold you become unable to pick stuff up. Donkey fever. Little fuckers will get weeded out faster and will have to buy more copies of the game or learn new ways of griefing that will need to be identified and dealt with, win win.

There are solutions, they just need to be implemented and balanced out and I can think of no better time to do that than, ideally before, but even after sales. Griefers will buy more cheaper copies during sales so they will be far more active, right?

JonySky · 2020-09-24 16:32:08

Dodge wrote:

He does want wars to happen or at least a game where wars might happen due to circumstances in the game he doesn't necessarly want the game to revolve around it since it's not a game about just killing like call of duty, fortnite etc but it's still a game about survival, civilisations etc and wars can happen due to disagreement between these civilisations or ressources or any other reason.
He pictures a game where any reasonnable scenario could happen like for example becoming a spy and infiltrate another village, gain their trust and finally steal some important key ressource or gather vital information.
Wars can happen and did happen in human history and he wants it part of the game or at least a possibility, now as for the reasons for it and wether it makes sense in the current game it is very far from it, currently the game is at best a crafting game with a parenting twist on it, we are very far from having these interesting stories that jason envisions and trying to force them to happen like with the biome restriction update is not the way to go.

got damn!!! On September 20, 400 people accessed the servers and the rubber banding was so horrible that I thought the servers were going to explode! Now imagine that same situation with war swords, horse battles and bloody corpses ... the game engine and netcode are not prepared to implement war, we also do not have anti cheat systems

Dodge · 2020-09-24 16:43:19

HumanPerson wrote:

I believe I have become allergic to the word 'vision' in recent years. It is often used as a means of saying 'shut up I dont care what you think' to often reasonable requests and complaints. It inherently carries negative annotations since it essentially says that nobody but you can ever have a good idea. Very rarely is this the case.

Most players just angrily shout at him and shut him down aswell instead of trying to understand what his motivations are and what he is trying to achieve so obviously it becomes a dead end in terms of conversations.

Saying that this and that is bad and that he should remove it and keep shouting it is not going to lead to anything, he added it for a reason even if it's not that good.

If you take the biome restriction for example sure it's forced interaction and it's not really interesting nor does it create the stories that he wants in the game but it stills make different civilisations interact with each other instead of each village staying isolated and having no reason to meet others at all.

So even if it's not the way to go and it should be replaced by something else, shouting at him to remove it is lack of understanding and a waste of time because it still creates something in the game wether you like what it is or not.

As for griefing it's not that easy as saying "Ban them. Easy." first of all obviously for logistic reasons since he cant spend 24/7 figuring out who is truly griefing and not just playing the game and having a disagreement with someone or any other possible scenario and also since he doesn't want his game to have strict rules of what you should or should not be doing, you're free to do anything and that's one of the greatest part of the game but you should also pay the consequences for it and that part of the game is not there yet.

If i remember correctly he doesn't even wanted a curse system but he implemented it as quick fix or a bandaid, eventually he wants players to be able to lock other bad players in prison, have cops,a judiciary system etc, obviously we are far from that.

Arcurus · 2020-09-24 16:45:11

HumanPerson wrote:

EDIT: the property fence thing cannot possibly work under current conditions. Would the griefer willingly enter a jail cell? Would they then stand there and be fed until death or would they starve and be born outside of cell to grief more. Would bbs be brought into the cell and let out once they have somehow proven they are not a griefer? What is the idea here other than a very short term and quite meaningless jail time. Oh right, griefers are one of the pillars of the community.

its more that Jasons vision of property fences is that all important stuff, also food i guess, is fenced, so griefers cannot take it anymore.

But with the current property fences this would be sooo inefficient thats for sure not worth it.

At smaller scale you see it with the leader fences, that thing is quite well established now, but quite far from being perfect.

Last edited by Arcurus (2020-09-24 16:56:19)

HumanPerson · 2020-09-24 16:47:31

I must ask since I am not familiar with how things work around here, but do things ever actually get recognized or solved on the forums and potentially implemented in some way, or are we all just beating off a dead horse?

Dodge · 2020-09-24 16:50:15

JonySky wrote:

got damn!!! On September 20, 400 people accessed the servers and the rubber banding was so horrible that I thought the servers were going to explode! Now imagine that same situation with war swords, horse battles and bloody corpses ... the game engine and netcode are not prepared to implement war, we also do not have anti cheat systems

If your argument against war behing a thing is rubber banding then the answer is pretty obvious, diminishing the load per server and spreading across the multiple empty ones.

So yes i can totally imagine two towns of 10 players fighting against each other without it being an issue for the server.

There is no major issue with the engine or netcode preventing it, just a matter of numbers.

And about the cheats i have no idea what specifically you are reffering to, what exact cheat, but that can be dealt as needed.

So no, not any technical reason preventing it.

HumanPerson · 2020-09-24 16:57:12

Arcurus wrote:

its more that Jasons vision of property fences is that all important suff, also food i guess is fenced, so griefers cannot take it anymore.
But with the current property fences this would be sooo inefficient thats for sure not worth it.
At smaller scale you see it with the leader fences, that thing is quite well established now, but quite far from being perfect.

I see, so food would be stocked in a locked storage and doled out according to needs. That's not bad, tho there certainly are issues with it, such as what if the owner of the gate can't or won't open it. I suppose there is potential in this line of thinking, but it needs to be expanded.

Dodge · 2020-09-24 16:58:23

HumanPerson wrote:

I must ask since I am not familiar with how things work around here, but do things ever actually get recognized or solved on the forums and potentially implemented in some way, or are we all just beating off a dead horse?

He rarely comes in the main forum and answers threads anymore, he does it occasionally, my guess is that he got tired of the walls of angry text and decided to limit his time here to do more productive things.

He probably does read the threads ocasionnaly but not sure.

It's better to post on github and explain your point of view if you think there is a major issue.

Arcurus · 2020-09-24 17:02:54

HumanPerson wrote:

I must ask since I am not familiar with how things work around here, but do things ever actually get recognized or solved on the forums and potentially implemented in some way, or are we all just beating off a dead horse?

It works around here, that we all try Jason to change something by describing it as bug in github even if it is per ser none and sometimes link to the forum topics for more details.

Sometimes it works, often it does not work and sometimes even worse comes out. Some times you win, sometimes you loose.

And sometimes Jasons dives into the forum an answers stuff, but that seems to be quite seldom. For sure he ignores if the same topic like fathers comes up again and again and again... and if people "shout" at him.

Arcurus · 2020-09-24 17:09:21

HumanPerson wrote:

Arcurus wrote:
its more that Jasons vision of property fences is that all important suff, also food i guess is fenced, so griefers cannot take it anymore.
But with the current property fences this would be sooo inefficient thats for sure not worth it.
At smaller scale you see it with the leader fences, that thing is quite well established now, but quite far from being perfect.
I see, so food would be stocked in a locked storage and doled out according to needs. That's not bad, tho there certainly are issues with it, such as what if the owner of the gate can't or won't open it. I suppose there is potential in this line of thinking, but it needs to be expanded.

Its currently the effort to fence everything is quite more harmful then its useful. We had it at a time with fenced berries, such a pain.

Also the fences could be implemented better. Like auto open / closing doors and a possibility to remove one from the access.

I think a fence around the village with auto / open gates which all allies have access could work to stop big part of griefing.

With exile you could then remove one from having access and since the doors are auto opening / closing you wont waste much time passing them.

So to stop a griefer you only need to exile him. then he is either trapped inside or outside the fence. Inside it should be quite easy to kill him once he is exiled...

Ok i give it a try an post it on gihub... lets see what happens...

Last edited by Arcurus (2020-09-24 17:10:59)

DestinyCall · 2020-09-24 17:11:18

HumanPerson wrote:

I must ask since I am not familiar with how things work around here, but do things ever actually get recognized or solved on the forums and potentially implemented in some way, or are we all just beating off a dead horse?

This is mostly a place to bitch with other players who understand your pain. In rare cases, Jason might see and respond in some way. He is occasionally active on the forums.

For more serious game-play bugs and suggestions regarding the game, posting the issue on Github is a better option. Or on the Bugs forum.

Regardless, I wouldn't get your hopes up too much rrgarding a quick response. Many of these issues are long-standing "features" of the game.

Last edited by DestinyCall (2020-09-24 17:11:59)

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