Abuse by Griefers

Spoonwood · 2020-09-24 17:14:41

JonySky wrote:

his piece of art is full of contradictions

It's also a rather rotten *and untrue* view of human nature and humanity in some future, specifically, at least in terms of the implied view of humans with respect to race and sex. At best, it's surface level art from it's visuals (questionable because it's default view is too far in), and it's sounds (I heard one streamer say that her husband thought the game bad, because of it's human made sounds though).

Last edited by Spoonwood (2020-09-24 17:17:09)

Arcurus · 2020-09-24 17:27:29

Reported it now as an issue on github:

https://github.com/jasonrohrer/OneLife/issues/682

HumanPerson · 2020-09-24 17:50:35

DestinyCall wrote:

This is mostly a place to bitch with other players who understand your pain. In rare cases, Jason might see and respond in some way. He is occasionally active on the forums.
For more serious game-play bugs and suggestions regarding the game, posting the issue on Github is a better option. Or on the Bugs forum.
Regardless, I wouldn't get your hopes up too much rrgarding a quick response. Many of these issues are long-standing "features" of the game.

I see. A man can dream tho. A man can dream...

Spoonwood wrote:

It's also a rather rotten *and untrue* view of human nature and humanity in some future, specifically, at least in terms of the implied view of humans with respect to race and sex. At best, it's surface level art from it's visuals (questionable because it's default view is too far in), and it's sounds (I heard one streamer say that her husband thought the game bad, because of it's human made sounds though).

I find the sounds and visuals charming, easily recognizable, quite a resourceful creative solution to working on no budged.

Arcurus wrote:

Reported it now as an issue on github:
https://github.com/jasonrohrer/OneLife/issues/682

Thats good, there could be some sort of a doorbell-like signal in case a non-exiled unauthorized person attempts to get in.
This sounds like it could work and most assets are already there. Fences could be expanded according to needs. If we need war then war parties or authorized raiding personnel could break through. Lets see how it goes.

Last edited by HumanPerson (2020-09-24 17:53:47)

Arcurus · 2020-09-24 17:55:15

HumanPerson wrote:

Thats good, there could be some sort of a doorbell-like signal in case a non-exiled unauthorized person attempts to get in.
This sounds like it could work and most assets are already there. Lets see how it goes.

there is doorbell-like signal already in place. the owner of the gate gets an message if one hits the door (at least in former times he got, i think now he only gets a certain amount of messages per time).

But in away with the current ally system where you can just become ally by following someone you even dont need to have a door bell. In away its a bug which should be fixed, but it would still function for the griefers, since exile overrides it...

Spoonwood · 2020-09-24 18:09:24

Dodge wrote:

If you take the biome restriction for example sure it's forced interaction and it's not really interesting nor does it create the stories that he wants in the game but it stills make different civilisations interact with each other instead of each village staying isolated and having no reason to meet others at all.
So even if it's not the way to go and it should be replaced by something else, shouting at him to remove it is lack of understanding and a waste of time because it still creates something in the game wether you like what it is or not.

I don't think that he wants inter-village interaction for its own sake. I think, as a better example of what he wants for its own sake, is every one of his 16 public servers filled with players. Or at least much more popularity of the game.

Are you of the opinion that the race system, even if it were tweaked and fine-tuned, leads to it becoming more likely that every one of his 16 public servers gets filled with players?

Last edited by Spoonwood (2020-09-24 18:10:26)

Dodge · 2020-09-24 18:27:11

Spoonwood wrote:

I don't think that he wants inter-village interaction for its own sake. I think, as a better example of what he wants for its own sake, is every one of his 16 public servers filled with players. Or at least much more popularity of the game.
Are you of the opinion that the race system, even if it were tweaked and fine-tuned, leads to it becoming more likely that every one of his 16 public servers gets filled with players?

No the race system doesn't make the game more popular and overall makes it less likely that all the servers have players on it, since you need all the races or at least the 3 minimum ones means that for it to work you need at least a certain number of players on a single server, so if you have 40 players for example you couldn't spread them on 16 servers since then race system would be disabled.

Not sure what you're logic is here but obviously he wants the game to be popular or at least have players interested in it and enjoying playing it.

The fact that he wants more players playing the game has nothing to do with how he pictures players playing the game, one is so obvious that it almost seems dumb to have to mention it, obviously as a game developper he want his game to be successful, duh?

HumanPerson · 2020-09-24 18:31:07

Arcurus wrote:

there is doorbell-like signal already in place. the owner of the gate gets an message if one hits the door (at least in former times he got, i think now he only gets a certain amount of messages per time).
But in away with the current ally system where you can just become ally by following someone you even dont need to have a door bell. In away its a bug which should be fixed, but it would still function for the griefers, since exile overrides it...

Anything is better than nothing I'd say, and it would make sense to have a fence around your settlement, especially if stuff like war and raids are intended to take place, plus I would say it would give the settlement a nice form to build around.

It appears as tho the only blocker would be actually making the doors work.

Tho I am sure other options exist as well, this is just an hypothetical idea.

Spoonwood wrote:

Are you of the opinion that the race system, even if it were tweaked and fine-tuned, leads to it becoming more likely that every one of his 16 public servers gets filled with players?

Not targeted at me, but I dont see what the fuss is about with the race system. If the avatars had blue, orange and green skins it wouldn't be such a problem. People in real life have those colours so he used those. I think we are focusing on wrong things, skin and hair is just an indicator of variety, not a political statement. Altho it is clear, in modern culture, that some people will see it that way no matter what your intentions were.

Last edited by HumanPerson (2020-09-24 18:40:35)

JonySky · 2020-09-24 18:48:14

Dodge wrote:

JonySky wrote:
got damn!!! On September 20, 400 people accessed the servers and the rubber banding was so horrible that I thought the servers were going to explode! Now imagine that same situation with war swords, horse battles and bloody corpses ... the game engine and netcode are not prepared to implement war, we also do not have anti cheat systems
If your argument against war behing a thing is rubber banding then the answer is pretty obvious, diminishing the load per server and spreading across the multiple empty ones.
So yes i can totally imagine two towns of 10 players fighting against each other without it being an issue for the server.
There is no major issue with the engine or netcode preventing it, just a matter of numbers.
And about the cheats i have no idea what specifically you are reffering to, what exact cheat, but that can be dealt as needed.
So no, not any technical reason preventing it.

Do you think that 20 players with war swords, horses, gutted people, corpses on the ground, all together with a dance of people trying to kill each other and all this in a small area of the map would not generate rubber banding? I dont believe it.
also...
Do you think that wars are viable only by reducing the load on the servers? ...
And what do we do with the current gang mechanics?
and with the mechanics of posse?
and with auto-pointing?
and with leadership?
curses?

Do you know the causes of the implementation of these mechanics?
Let's see for example the implementation of posse ...
Do you know why it was implemented?
Let me summarize it: before having the posse system, killing a griefer was exaggeratedly difficult due to the dance and the equal speed of movement
look at Jason's notes:
https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=7972

If you implement war, you must eliminate these mechanics since they are not compatible with war, but if you eliminate these mechanics, you will get more problems ... for example the assassin dance ...

Do you know why this happens? Because the game engine is not prepared for a PVP game and these mechanics are only patches to counteract this deficiency in the engine

and on the subject of cheats it is logical even if you do not want to see it ... if the game has a competitive point, there will be people who cheat ... cruel reality even if you do not like it

If you first implement war and then an anti-cheat system you are starting the house from the roof

if you want to create a battle (pvp) first prepare the game so that it is not an absolute chaos and a disaster

jasonrohrer · 2020-09-24 18:59:38

Obviously, this is NOT an easy problem to solve.

You want freedom in a game like this, not restrictions all over the place. Yes, it would be possible to make a game where griefing is impossible (everything locked down with ownership per-object), but such a game becomes completely tedious to play. Also, there are multiplayer games that work this way (Eco), but they don't have a passage of generations mechanic. If everything is locked down in ownership, but the owners die every hour, inheritance only further complicates everything.

So you have this thief in town using a cart to steal all the food. That's a perfect example.

How do we solve this problem?

Immediate, in the situation methods:

If he couldn't touch the cart or the food without permission, he wouldn't be able to steal. But how could that possibly work? How would the rest of the village eat or use a cart when they need to? Everyone would need to request permission for every action that they took. Yikes. So a full-scale permission system is a dead-end. Property fences are a soft, emergent permission system, where players can chose what needs to be protected, and who can be trusted with access. But they add friction, require extra planning, etc. So very few people use them.

There could be some way for someone to notice what this guy is doing and remove him or ban him. Kill him. Exile him. Curse him. But that's a lot of power for one person to have, right? And what if the thief uses that power to remove/ban a good person? So, if such a thing is possible, it has to be difficult to use, and require group consensus of some kind. This is how the leadership and exile and posse and killing system functions. But the difficulties of achieving consensus put it out of reach for beginning players.

Long term methods:

We could somehow notice, report, and record a pattern of behavior over the long term. Maybe there's no way to stop one guy from stealing food one time. But maybe if the same guy keeps doing it, he gets flagged by enough people, and then something happens. This doesn't actually help the immediate victim of a crime at all, in the short term, but might bring justice in the long term. This is what the curse system does, or at least attempts to do. And for the very worst offenders, it works. But short-term, it makes the victims feel helpless (because the guy keeps on stealing, right in front of them, until he dies).

The problem with severe consequences either short or long term is that innocent people can occasionally be affected. A griefer runs around and frames you for a crime, and suddenly people exile you or kill you or curse you into oblivion. Not a great feeling.

If I was manually looking at reports (an endless nightmare of he-said-she-said), and I mistakenly perma-banned an innocent person? Yikes.

But the idea that there's going to be a viable "report" system, where you notice someone stealing, and type up a report to me, and send me screen shots as evidence? That's just never going to work.

And who's to say that "stealing" in a given situation is even inappropriate? If it makes sense in the story, then it's an important part of the world (a mother flees a starving village to steal food to keep her last baby alive?)

There was another solution floated in this thread, which I will respond to in another post.

jasonrohrer · 2020-09-24 19:09:15

One suggested solution is to make property fences even easier to use, by connecting it to the leadership system.

If you are an ally, you can pass through a gate that the leader owns (the city gate or whatever), and if you're exiled, you suddenly cannot.

This would work.

However, I doubt that people would actually use it. The leader would have to build a fence around the village with a gate. It's possible for people to do this already, but they're not doing it. Yes, it's a pain to add people to the gate, but "MY FAMILY OWNS THIS" is pretty easy. Yes, they can't remove bad people from the gate. But I don't think that's the one thing that's stopping them from building gates.

I think it's just an extra complexity that people generally don't have time for, and don't feel strong motivation for. You only need the gate when you need it. And once you have a situation where you need a gate (guy stealing stuff), it's too late to build one. Because this game is trans-generational, people usually behave in reactive ways (we're out of oil, let's go find some) and not based on long-term planning.

So it kinda feels like we need something a bit more automatic to deal with this problem.

You know, like if every village had a fence that magically appeared around it, and the leader automatically owned the gate. That would work, but be impossible to implement correctly.

Arcurus · 2020-09-24 19:21:54

jasonrohrer wrote:

One suggested solution is to make property fences even easier to use, by connecting it to the leadership system.
If you are an ally, you can pass through a gate that the leader owns (the city gate or whatever), and if you're exiled, you suddenly cannot.
This would work.
However, I doubt that people would actually use it. The leader would have to build a fence around the village with a gate. It's possible for people to do this already, but they're not doing it. Yes, it's a pain to add people to the gate, but "MY FAMILY OWNS THIS" is pretty easy. Yes, they can't remove bad people from the gate. But I don't think that's the one thing that's stopping them from building gates.
I think it's just an extra complexity that people generally don't have time for, and don't feel strong motivation for. You only need the gate when you need it. And once you have a situation where you need a gate (guy stealing stuff), it's too late to build one. Because this game is trans-generational, people usually behave in reactive ways (we're out of oil, let's go find some) and not based on long-term planning.

So it kinda feels like we need something a bit more automatic to deal with this problem.

You know, like if every village had a fence that magically appeared around it, and the leader automatically owned the gate. That would work, but be impossible to implement correctly.

first of all @Jason thx for responding

The current fam own this has as you explained the problem that you cannot remove one insider / griefer. Connecting fam owns this with the leadership / exile to remove griefers would make it actual useful.

The second thing is to have automatic doors, this would make it also quite efficient to use. No time lost when passing and you cannot forget to close it.

Bear griefing is quite common to go through and this would protect against it, so i guess people will use it to an certain extend.

Everybody could build the fence, and then let the fam own it with the command. And it can be build quite efficient with the current tools, i see no problem in that.

For sure no need for magical appearing fences....

By the way, also the normal spring doors could stop exiled / not allied persons and belong by default to the hole family ....

UPDATE
In former times when "war" was possible we had sometimes complete fenced cities...

The most difficult part would then be to exile a griefer.

I guess we could allow a person to be exiled if three people exiled him, so not necessarily the leader need to exile him.

Last edited by Arcurus (2020-09-24 19:29:58)

Arcurus · 2020-09-24 19:31:24

such gated cities would be even more useful if the change of a cursed one to incarnate in a family where he has been exiled / cursed is drastically lowered and or he is marked as "cursed" or born as exiled...

Arcurus · 2020-09-24 19:35:23

loool, just was thinking about Americans and walls, but yea i guess a wall properly done could actual work to an certain extend against griefers in OHOL...

Last edited by Arcurus (2020-09-24 19:38:08)

HumanPerson · 2020-09-24 19:35:53

jasonrohrer wrote:

Long term methods:
We could somehow notice, report, and record a pattern of behavior over the long term. Maybe there's no way to stop one guy from stealing food one time. But maybe if the same guy keeps doing it, he gets flagged by enough people, and then something happens. This doesn't actually help the immediate victim of a crime at all, in the short term, but might bring justice in the long term. This is what the curse system does, or at least attempts to do. And for the very worst offenders, it works. But short-term, it makes the victims feel helpless (because the guy keeps on stealing, right in front of them, until he dies).

This is a good point. The problem isn't so much griefing itself, as strange it is to say, as it is knowing it will happen again, which is addressed by this. This also fits in with the spirit of the game.

jasonrohrer wrote:

On property fences

Depending on how hard it is to implement, should such thing be known to be available, perhaps sooner or later a village would test it out. If it works it spreads to other villages. It depends on how effortless it is made to ensure right people can use the gate.

And I will just say, since you are likely to read this. I was a bit upset cause of recent griefer incidents when I wrote some of this so if it sounds rough, take it with a pinch of salt. It is a good game, otherwise we wouldn't be here bitching about it. Hate is not the opposite of love. Indifference is.

Last edited by HumanPerson (2020-09-24 19:40:44)

DestinyCall · 2020-09-24 19:43:13

Part of the reason why we do not use fences to keep the bad guys out of our towns is because the "bad guys" don't need to pass through a gate to get into the town. Griefers can be born inside the walls, avoiding physical barriers against "outsiders". Theft and griefing is frequently an inside job.

The idea of a public gate or "family only" gate is a good one. If it automatically worked with the exile system, so you didn't need to worry about giving ownership to the wrong child in your family, I think that would be highly useful.

Keep in mind that we only started using property gates to protect important items after the changes to allow leaders to inherit control of the gate after death. This helped to insure safe succession across generations so valuable items were kept out of griefer hands but still remained accessible to veteran players. You need both aspects to make property work in an OHOL village.

In fact, I would like to see public and private gates as visually distinct objects. For example, add colored flag to a private property gate will turn it into a public property gate. Public property gates would grant ownership to the entire family/leadership structure, excluding exiles. They would require elder approval to be removed - or alternatively, removed by town leader. These gates could be used in areas that contain valuable resources that the whole village should be able to access - like food, fire, and farming. They should auto-open, like springy doors, to avoid delays in high-traffic areas. The public gates should look different so you know at a glance what type of door you are dealing with.

Private property gates could continue operate like the current property gates, for use when you want to exclude all but a few people from a certain area. Secure private storage is important for hard to make items that are used infrequently, like rubber, oil, and engines.

I could see people actually using these gates to control access and manage resources or town access.

But keep in mind - we have to share stuff with other towns regularly to survive. So it isn't practical to keep outsiders away completely. We need them. Putting a wall around the whole village would protect against bears, but it won't help against a water shortage.

Last edited by DestinyCall (2020-09-24 19:48:52)

Arcurus · 2020-09-24 19:56:04

DestinyCall wrote:

But keep in mind - we have to share stuff with other towns regularly to survive. So it isn't practical to keep outsiders away completely. We need them. Putting a wall around the whole village would protect against bears, but it won't help against a water shortage.

as said, for that we have already the door "bell" messaged and also the buggy ally system where even outsiders can join. So unless this is fixed it would help mainly against exiled ones.

If you got 3 plus exiles from one family, you could also count as exiled from this family in the next life's until redemption...

Being born with an x (exiled) would be born as an unwanted. Be raised until three and then seek for redemption or search yourself another place to life...

Maybe exile cities will develop

On top of that the more exiles you got (enemies) the more you could get slowed down if they are near (up to X0.8 speed). This would make it lot more difficult to run away with stuff... exiled ones could also be forbidden to pick up weapons, horses, cars, engines and stuff like this (basically all above age 3 is not allowed, they will be treated like children).

Last edited by Arcurus (2020-09-24 20:01:41)

fug · 2020-09-24 22:25:07

Arcurus wrote:

UPDATE
In former times when "war" was possible we had sometimes complete fenced cities...

The most difficult part would then be to exile a griefer.
I guess we could allow a person to be exiled if three people exiled him, so not necessarily the leader need to exile him.

You couldn't curse Eves with war swords so they could both constantly respawn to attack you while being immune to any sort of repercussion. With a working curse system (it was gutted for whatever dumb reason Jason decided on at that moment) you wouldn't have needed fences.

In fact, Jason did this to ENCOURAGE fences. Same thing with the damn diesel engine. A completely dumb change for the sake of the idea of getting people to use fences.

So why do we not use fences besides for property to prevent stuff like bear attacks and the like? Because as Destiny pointed out, 9/10 times griefing comes from inside your family making the fence useless anyways. This is further made worse by the fact you have zero reason in game currently to attack/raid/screw over other villages because everyone is both completely dependent on each other AND their future lives are griefed via fucking with others.

That's frankly a problem in my eyes. Don't get me wrong, I very much enjoy and encourage the server all coming together and working as one big family but there should be active reasons in game you would take from others instead of just donate back and forth. But, this can't happen in the current versions of the game because everyone requires each other and any smart player would realize the self harm caused by being selfish.

Spoonwood · 2020-09-24 23:36:42

fug wrote:

Don't get me wrong, I very much enjoy and encourage the server all coming together and working as one big family but there should be active reasons in game you would take from others instead of just donate back and forth. But, this can't happen in the current versions of the game because everyone requires each other and any smart player would realize the self harm caused by being selfish.

If the game had reasons to take from others, then whoever your took from has less resources to provide for their family. That implies that children born have less opportunity. New players, especially, on the receiving end of such have less opportunity TO DIE by means of old age, or increase their genetic score or to "build civilization" or to parent. They have less opportunity to learn what the game has to offer. It's supposed to be a one hour game. One hour and you're hooked. All (theoretical) judgements based on one hour of game play without any sunken cost fallacy, more meaningful than any other judgments.

How exactly would theft be better towards to the experience of new players as a whole be better? How would minimization of negative effects to new players work? How could it be possible, that at some point in time, all 16 pubilc servers get filled with players, with significant negative effects to new players experiences expected from the foundations of the game?

Eve Troll · 2020-09-25 00:11:00

I chose my name for the meme names (epic, mega, legendary, great, major, etc) and because its ironic in reference to my playstyle. I bring up the fact that griefers will always be apart of this game because it IS a fact. There isnt a fix and thinking there is is naive. All fixes that have been introduced have only made the game more boring and stale.

If you like a rigid system that forces players into a box, glory to you, but that's the opposite reason i was attracted to ohol. This game really gives players freedom and the dynamic of this game is the human element. This game is supposed to be brutal and truly represent the human condition. If that is too much for you to handle and want a structured casual experience then.. yea idk what to say to you.

The real issue is that griefers fall under a playstyle, not because they are bad people or because they hate you. Sure beef happens in this game but its pretty mild and short lived. Every town and family has an expiration date and to poise yourself around that as a drive or a priority is only going to bring heartbreak and anger. As much as they dont want to admit it, the antigriefers of this game fall under the exact playstyle as the griefers. They both seek confrontation and find exhilaration and thrill from it. That isnt going anywhere and expecting some type of fix for that nature is silly.

The issue is those people have no outlet, so they find the outlet they can find. Scrapping engines, hiding supplies, sabotaging resources, fighting griefers, mass cursing, creating rivalries and motivating the masses from one side or the other. They need an outlet. If you pay attention the lifespan of towns or fams its pretty average across the board. Griefers play a role in that sure, but they rarely effect the lifespan much on average. Its natural for families and towns to die out. The main issue with that isnt players, but the spawn pattern for eves.

Healthy outlets for griefers/antigriefers will likely redirect the issue into something beneficial as opposed to purely destructive. Or at least into something interesting and dynamic instead of just generally annoying.

But yea the spawn system is the main issue if you want long living fams and towns.

P.S. Anti griefers im looking at you. Almost all of you were griefers once. The holier than thou stuff is just a facade. Accept yourself and accept griefers for what they are and maybe the game can grow into something thats good for both of you.

Last edited by Eve Troll (2020-09-25 00:17:58)

DestinyCall · 2020-09-25 00:31:52

Sounds like a lot of excuses to justify toxic behavior, Eve Troll. Intentionally ruining other people's enjoyment of the game for fun is not a "playstyle" that deserves to be defended or respected.

I do agree the griefing is an unavoidable aspect of multi-player games, especially games like OHOL that strive to allow large amounts of freedom to its players. But that doesn't mean you should give up on even trying to manage it.

Most games find ways to manage their player population and deal with the worst offenders. I'm sure OHOL will figure it out too.

Eve Troll · 2020-09-25 00:35:32

Not justifying anything. Just sitting on the fence and looking at both sides, try it sometime.

Just bringing up that fact there is no outlet for that playstyle, and maybe there should be. The longest lineages were not because of people pouring themselves into fams or because they resisted griefers. Its always been about how spawns have been structured. Always. Argue with me all you want. But every spike has been because of some adjustment by jason to enforce strong spawns for families.

HumanPerson · 2020-09-25 01:04:45

Eve Troll wrote:

I chose my name for the meme names (epic, mega, legendary, great, major, etc) and because its ironic in reference to my playstyle. I bring up the fact that griefers will always be apart of this game because it IS a fact. There isnt a fix and thinking there is is naive. All fixes that have been introduced have only made the game more boring and stale.
If you like a rigid system that forces players into a box, glory to you, but that's the opposite reason i was attracted to ohol. This game really gives players freedom and the dynamic of this game is the human element. This game is supposed to be brutal and truly represent the human condition. If that is too much for you to handle and want a structured casual experience then.. yea idk what to say to you.
The real issue is that griefers fall under a playstyle, not because they are bad people or because they hate you. Sure beef happens in this game but its pretty mild and short lived. Every town and family has an expiration date and to poise yourself around that as a drive or a priority is only going to bring heartbreak and anger. As much as they dont want to admit it, the antigriefers of this game fall under the exact playstyle as the griefers. They both seek confrontation and find exhilaration and thrill from it. That isnt going anywhere and expecting some type of fix for that nature is silly.
The issue is those people have no outlet, so they find the outlet they can find. Scrapping engines, hiding supplies, sabotaging resources, fighting griefers, mass cursing, creating rivalries and motivating the masses from one side or the other. They need an outlet. If you pay attention the lifespan of towns or fams its pretty average across the board. Griefers play a role in that sure, but they rarely effect the lifespan much on average. Its natural for families and towns to die out. The main issue with that isnt players, but the spawn pattern for eves.
Healthy outlets for griefers/antigriefers will likely redirect the issue into something beneficial as opposed to purely destructive. Or at least into something interesting and dynamic instead of just generally annoying.
But yea the spawn system is the main issue if you want long living fams and towns.
P.S. Anti griefers im looking at you. Almost all of you were griefers once. The holier than thou stuff is just a facade. Accept yourself and accept griefers for what they are and maybe the game can grow into something thats good for both of you.

You are so unconvincing I cannot help but respond.

You chose your name because you are a griefer, no matter how you put it.
You bring up human nature from your earlier comment. Indeed it is in human nature to want to dominate others. It is also in human nature to desire justice above all else and develop systems to achieve it. That is why, as explained earlier, we have prisons and legal systems, which solve, to a certain degree, the problem with real life griefers. We need a reliable system like this in the game.

You say we want to force people into the box. No. We want to keep griefers out of the box. There would be no box in the first place if grifers weren't pointlessly abusing other people. Griefers are creating a problem, so called anti-griefers, or normal people as most would call them, are trying to respond and defend themselves. Without action, there would be no reaction. Please explain to me what stealing all food/tools/engines and dumping them in the forest is supposed to do for anyone other than the griefer?

Griefers fall under a playstyle like pedophiles fall under sexual orientation. Your attempt at framing 'anti-griefers' fails miserably, since by that logic, police detectives are criminals for combating actual criminals, since they are part of the cycle. Ridiculous.

The idea that griefers are just poor helpless babies who just want to harm others and cant help it is exactly why we need tools to remove them from society.

In what world is taking valuable items and abandoning them in the forest beneficial. Please do explain how stealing for no purpose other than to harm other people is beneficial. Had they been stealing it because the other town down the road needs it, fine, we can deal with that, we can understand their motivation. But what purpose is there in just wasting it so nobody can have it? After so many people did so much to acquire it? There is none. Only perverted pleasure from harming others while being untouchable. Cowards do that. You are a coward.

If those hypothetical people you refer to were griefers once and now they are not, then they are not a problem anymore and thus are welcome to live in society. Tho I suspect you pulled this 'fact' straight out the rear end of your digestive tract, just like everything else you said.

Thoroughly unconvincing.

Eve Troll wrote:

Not justifying anything. Just sitting on the fence and looking at both sides, try it sometime.
Just bringing up that fact there is no outlet for that playstyle, and maybe there should be. The longest lineages were not because of people pouring themselves into fams or because they resisted griefers. Its always been about how spawns have been structured. Always. Argue with me all you want. But every spike has been because of some adjustment by jason to enforce strong spawns for families.

You want us to believe you are impartial in this? How stupid do you think people on this forums are?

Of course, the fact that griefers take supplies to the forest clearly is caused by poor spawn points. How could poor spawn points not result in one person stealing supplies and dumping them in the forest?

Last edited by HumanPerson (2020-09-25 01:08:13)

fug · 2020-09-25 01:24:00

Eve Troll wrote:

Not justifying anything. Just sitting on the fence and looking at both sides, try it sometime.
Just bringing up that fact there is no outlet for that playstyle, and maybe there should be. The longest lineages were not because of people pouring themselves into fams or because they resisted griefers. Its always been about how spawns have been structured. Always. Argue with me all you want. But every spike has been because of some adjustment by jason to enforce strong spawns for families.

There isn't this sort of outlet in most games for folks who grief or break the box of how a game should be played. Run it down repeatedly in a game of League of Legends? You get banned for ruining the game for nine other people. Shooting your teammates repeatedly on purpose in a hardcore game of CoD? You get kicked from the lobby. We've yet again fallen into the point where there's no meaningful consequences for actively working against your family.

If it was a one and done dealing with troll it would be fine but it's not. At this point you need to curse the same person six+ times over their different accounts, and you need to renew it monthly else you have to rely on hetuw to give you a name and that's only a thing if the person is dumb enough to do that.

It's always the griefers who throw around the term anti-griefing as if its supposed be meaningful or something. We're the people playing the game as intended aka normally, and you're the folks who actively ruin it.

HumanPerson · 2020-09-25 01:35:18

fug wrote:

Eve Troll wrote:
Not justifying anything. Just sitting on the fence and looking at both sides, try it sometime.
Just bringing up that fact there is no outlet for that playstyle, and maybe there should be. The longest lineages were not because of people pouring themselves into fams or because they resisted griefers. Its always been about how spawns have been structured. Always. Argue with me all you want. But every spike has been because of some adjustment by jason to enforce strong spawns for families.
There isn't this sort of outlet in most games for folks who grief or break the box of how a game should be played. Run it down repeatedly in a game of League of Legends? You get banned for ruining the game for nine other people. Shooting your teammates repeatedly on purpose in a hardcore game of CoD? You get kicked from the lobby. We've yet again fallen into the point where there's no meaningful consequences for actively working against your family.
If it was a one and done dealing with troll it would be fine but it's not. At this point you need to curse the same person six+ times over their different accounts, and you need to renew it monthly else you have to rely on hetuw to give you a name and that's only a thing if the person is dumb enough to do that.
It's always the griefers who throw around the term anti-griefing as if its supposed be meaningful or something. We're the people playing the game as intended aka normally, and you're the folks who actively ruin it.

Better watch out for those evil anti-criminals trying to persecute innocent criminals.

DestinyCall · 2020-09-25 02:02:18

HumanPerson wrote:

Better watch out for those evil anti-criminals trying to persecute innocent criminals.

God, I hate those guys. They are almost as bad as the anti-speeders who keep telling me to slow down when I am driving a car I bought with my own money!

If you can't handle my speed, you should just get off the road. It is a free country. I can drive how I like, damn it.

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