Can This Game Evolve Beyond White Supremacy?

Spoonwood · 2020-09-29 22:13:50

Rookwood wrote:

I don't think you've had a counterargument that the game promotes the view that whites or pales have intellectual superiority,
Because that's a stupid assertion. Everyone else who plays this game will tell you whites are the worst race.

They are not the worst race in game at understanding other families. Really, they are the *only* race that can understand members of other families in game.

Rookwood wrote:

Do you think white supremacists want to learn other languages?

Yes, I think some have. I think some white supermacists learned some people's languages so that they could enslave them.

Rookwood wrote:

White supremacists in America would never learn Spanish. In real life, white supremacy is isolationist and xenophobic. In this game, whites have the exact opposite ability... They are the most able to integrate with other families.

Families are integrating with other families since the homeland change? If so, I haven't seen it from watching streams. If families aren't integrating with other families, then whites are not the most able to integrate with other families, they are the same in that they basically have no (meaningful) ability in that respect.

Gogo · 2020-09-29 22:29:29

In fact I would love to learn basics of spanish through OHOL players... what if game would auto-translate junglers words into spanish?

Rookwood · 2020-09-30 01:05:22

They are not the worst race in game at understanding other families. Really, they are the *only* race that can understand members of other families in game.

Yeah you're a troll dude. Thanks for giving me a heads up. Peace.

Rookwood · 2020-09-30 01:16:01

Eve Troll wrote:

Yea no one trades. Everyone is just forced to share to even get anything done.

Oh my what a terrible horrible world where people share! And no one is forcing anyone to share. The players could choose to hoard their stuff, they just choose not too. Talk about organic...

Ever had one of those lives you just wana do something fun in town but have to travel almost your entire life collecting resources from other fams just to do it?

What is fun? Running the newcomen for the 5 millionth time to get everyone water or going on an adventure to find the other families to get the resources? What's not fun to you is the funnest part of the game to me.

And by the time you have collected it, after a frustrating experience of chasing people around with a piece of paper, you're too old to even do what you wanted to do.

Yeah sometimes you fail. That's not a bad thing.

The interactions we get from it are artificial.

How are the interactions artificial? You have a need, you have to rely on others in the game to fill that need. You can choose to steal, hoard, trade, or just share. Nothing about it is artificial.

You question if we play the game but i question if you played the game prior to the addition of race restrictions.

I started playing before the Rift and I can tell you biome restrictions are 100 times better than the rift. If Jason wants to enforce geographical isolation, biome restrictions are a way better way to do it.

Spoonwood · 2020-09-30 01:41:01

Rookwood wrote:

How are the interactions artificial? You have a need, you have to rely on others in the game to fill that need.

From what I can tell, people who are trading, or "trading", whatever is actually going on, are mostly using Hetuw chat. There's no in-game chat box like Hetuw chat. That's an artificiality of the interactions.

Rookwood wrote:

I started playing before the Rift ...

When?

Caprys · 2020-09-30 01:54:36

Spoonwood wrote:

Rookwood wrote:
I don't think you've had a counterargument that the game promotes the view that whites or pales have intellectual superiority,
Because that's a stupid assertion. Everyone else who plays this game will tell you whites are the worst race.
They are not the worst race in game at understanding other families. Really, they are the *only* race that can understand members of other families in game.

They are the only race with a specialisation that can be learned by all the other races, not to mention paper, pencil and radios. Whites are the worst race, but even that is not enough for you. It sounds to me that you label them as white supremacist because you want them to be inferior. Being white and knowing more then one language doesn't make you a slaveowner. It doesn't make you a white supremacist. You're twisting reality just so you can be offended.

Eve Troll · 2020-09-30 02:09:42

Im glad you're having fun rook. But 90% of the community isnt..i guess its good someone is though.

The issue lies with the system itself. Explaining it to new players or anyone out of context doesnt sound good and pretty racist tbo.

Just because you like the result of the mechanics doesn't mean they are the right answer to the problem. What's the problem again?

I enjoy people helping, sharing, etc. It happened quite a bit before the change as well. Except it was by choice not by some artificial pressure. But the main thing i enjoy about this game is the human element. Anything that restricts that element and forces people into a box is bad imo. As much as the rift was hell, it also put the human element on full display. Ide rather players be able to express themselves to the fullest. Its what makes life interesting.

Spoonwood · 2020-09-30 02:21:19

Capyrs wrote:

They are the only race with a specialisation that can be learned by all the other races ...

What are you talking about? Browns can't learn to speak the black language and the ginger language so far I know.

Cogito · 2020-09-30 02:42:30

Spoonwood wrote:

Capyrs wrote:
They are the only race with a specialisation that can be learned by all the other races ...
What are you talking about? Browns can't learn to speak the black language and the ginger language so far I know.

You can still learn other languages, it's just harder because people don't tend to be around other languages long enough, and then pass their learned language down to their kids.

Not that long ago we had long-lived towns and language was eventually, partially, shared between them.

Rookwood · 2020-09-30 02:42:50

Eve Troll wrote:

But the main thing i enjoy about this game is the human element.

I can understand that. I enjoyed the game before Rift when it was merely about being in a family. The game was much slower paced then and people just sat around the fire and chatted more often and you didn't have veterans freaking out because people weren't playing optimally. No one really cared.

But Jason at some point decided this game needed to be hard and have limited resources to put everything on a timer as well he needed to hit us with a Tower of Babel to split us apart.

It's part of his social experiment I guess. I don't see the game going back to the simpler way it was so at this point I've just accepted it and take the game for what it is. To be honest, I don't have many complaints and I do enjoy most of my lives unless I'm getting griefed.

Whether the biome restrictions is a good system is a valid discussion and I think it would be interesting to propose different ways to creating a trade dynamic or argue whether it should be removed entirely.

But starting that conversation with "It's white supremacy!" is very much a nonstarter. It simultaneously creates a chicken little effect where arguments can't be taken seriously, it brings a very serious real world problem into the mix, and it baits actual racists and white supremacists to join the discussion and spread their views... There's no way that I believe Spoonwood doesn't know what he's doing here...

Eve Troll · 2020-09-30 03:21:14

I think its more the case of the splashy title on a news article to get people to read it.

I hear you though. Pre rift/pre war swords was a great time for the game. Griefing also seemed to be less common then as well. But maybe i was just new and didnt notice as much.

I had given up hope as well and I thought for a long time we were stuck with tool slots as well but that was recently changed. A lot of good changes have been happening tbo. Its hard not to hope for more good changes and push for the ones you want.

Race restrictions have always left a bad taste in my mouth. Anything that makes me have to explain to a new player that i cant teach them ice cream because they're black is just..

At any rate i agree that considering alternatives would be nice. Maybe something that encourages behavior instead of forcing it. Restrictions being tied into water production is a bit much imo. And honestly anything that's tied to race is going to be touchy.

Spoonwood · 2020-09-30 03:47:01

Cogito wrote:

Spoonwood wrote:
Capyrs wrote:
They are the only race with a specialisation that can be learned by all the other races ...
What are you talking about? Browns can't learn to speak the black language and the ginger language so far I know.
You can still learn other languages, it's just harder because people don't tend to be around other languages long enough, and then pass their learned language down to their kids.

I think, homelands keep that from happening, don't they?

Spoonwood · 2020-09-30 03:50:19

Rookwood wrote:

But starting that conversation with "It's white supremacy!" is very much a nonstarter. It simultaneously creates a chicken little effect where arguments can't be taken seriously, it brings a very serious real world problem into the mix, and it baits actual racists and white supremacists to join the discussion and spread their views... There's no way that I believe Spoonwood doesn't know what he's doing here...

I'm speaking my mind as I see it. If you can't accept that, then you either haven't understood my argument or have trouble understanding other people's position.

Ability to *understand* a language is a sign of intelligence. *All* whites can do that in game from the get go. That isn't the case for any other race.

Thus, the game sends the message that whites are inherently more intelligent.

Last edited by Spoonwood (2020-09-30 03:50:54)

Cogito · 2020-09-30 04:13:18

Spoonwood wrote:

Cogito wrote:
Spoonwood wrote:
What are you talking about? Browns can't learn to speak the black language and the ginger language so far I know.
You can still learn other languages, it's just harder because people don't tend to be around other languages long enough, and then pass their learned language down to their kids.
I think, homelands keep that from happening, don't they?

That's right - a girl has to travel to another town and experience the language, then head home to have babies, who also need to do this pilgrimage. Do this for a few generations and you can learn the language.

Alternatively, it may be possible for a traveller to go and speak in another town, so that *that* family picks up the language of the traveller, but not sure if that works.

fug · 2020-09-30 04:23:21

Cogito wrote:

Spoonwood wrote:
Cogito wrote:
You can still learn other languages, it's just harder because people don't tend to be around other languages long enough, and then pass their learned language down to their kids.
I think, homelands keep that from happening, don't they?
That's right - a girl has to travel to another town and experience the language, then head home to have babies, who also need to do this pilgrimage. Do this for a few generations and you can learn the language.
Alternatively, it may be possible for a traveller to go and speak in another town, so that *that* family picks up the language of the traveller, but not sure if that works.

Language learning stops at age six. You basically need travelers to come talk to your family then the babies who learn need to have successful branches down the family tree. Add in you're not teaching your family the language so....

Cogito · 2020-09-30 04:29:00

fug wrote:

Language learning stops at age six.

Ah, I thought it was much older for some reason.

Seems like the travelling tutor is the way to go, but it is only valuable if the two families live long enough to make learning the language worth the time taken.

mrbah · 2020-09-30 09:36:43

fug wrote:

Cogito wrote:
Spoonwood wrote:
I think, homelands keep that from happening, don't they?
That's right - a girl has to travel to another town and experience the language, then head home to have babies, who also need to do this pilgrimage. Do this for a few generations and you can learn the language.
Alternatively, it may be possible for a traveller to go and speak in another town, so that *that* family picks up the language of the traveller, but not sure if that works.
Language learning stops at age six. You basically need travelers to come talk to your family then the babies who learn need to have successful branches down the family tree. Add in you're not teaching your family the language so....

so the old ginger guy who comes by your village to ask for sulfur will make your children understand ginger language a bit better, doesn't that mean eventually if a family lives long, families will be able to understand each other?

Cryoes · 2020-09-30 15:02:46

I read a tiny bit of that.. but I mean...

I dislike the race system as well.... I mean Hetuw makes the "white race" useless as you can use chat outside of the game.

Also... white supremacy? Wha? The other races get way better and more useful resources...

There is no way I am going to read your entire nonsensical post.

Racial system just adds needless systems to the game imo.. it isn't... white supremacy...

I mean you can use a paper pencil and rubber ball to communicate....

I don't know if you are a troll or retarded... which is it? I understand where you are coming from.. I just think it is literally retarded. The reason Jason gave that warning is for people like yourself who are borderline and have issues comprehending things.

I mean you seem to think the ability to communicate in multiple languages conveys intellectual superiority. I mean the blonde family "Not gonna call them the whites.. cuz thats racist.. like you..." literally has to scavenge from every other family offering absolutely nothing due to anyone who even plays this game more than once is going to use Hetuw..

Honestly kinda of silly you mentioning whites when its legit just the blondes and your use of the races is pretty racist as well you don't see the gingers as being white... I just wont try to understand your absolutely retarded self.

Now cry about being insulted.. I really don't care.. you are very slow.

Spoonwood wrote:

Rookwood wrote:
But starting that conversation with "It's white supremacy!" is very much a nonstarter. It simultaneously creates a chicken little effect where arguments can't be taken seriously, it brings a very serious real world problem into the mix, and it baits actual racists and white supremacists to join the discussion and spread their views... There's no way that I believe Spoonwood doesn't know what he's doing here...
I'm speaking my mind as I see it. If you can't accept that, then you either haven't understood my argument or have trouble understanding other people's position.
Ability to *understand* a language is a sign of intelligence. *All* whites can do that in game from the get go. That isn't the case for any other race.
Thus, the game sends the message that whites are inherently more intelligent.

All whites... yes Gingers aren't white.....

Retards like you shouldn't be allowed to have opinions the world would be a much quieter place with less retarded complaints over nothing.

Last edited by Cryoes (2020-09-30 15:10:34)

DestinyCall · 2020-09-30 16:09:07

Actually, if you consider ginger-headed whites and non-ginger whites as a single race with two different sub-groups, then it looks even worse. That means white people get two super-powers instead of just one! And they are twice as common as the other races, making whites the "majority", while the non-whites are minority races. The universal translator ability is pretty lame, but it does let you easily trade with any other village for necessary supplies. Or simply walk in and take stuff, like everyone does, but with the added benefit of being able to ask if it is okay or directly ask someone to help you gather the materials that you need without needing paper/rubber ball or sign-language. Time is the most precious resource in OHOL and having the universal translator ability can save a lot of time. As a non-ginger white, you can easily hang out in a ginger village without being bothered by the locals, since your pale skin lets you blend in nicely and the translator ability lets you speak and understand everyone. Together with the ability to make oil, gold crowns, rose bushes, seal skin coats, and ice cream, the white people are pretty OP, compared with the other races.

Spoonwood's argument that all this proves that Jason must hold feelings of white supremacy is blatantly false. But there's good reason why people keep saying that family specialties are racist and poorly designed/balanced. When you start giving people different abilities based on the color of their skin, you are treading on thin ice. There's basically no way to do it in a way that doesn't end up making one race better or worse than another race in some way. There's no way to do it without rightfully offending someone or making it seem like you are favoring one group over the others. Even if you just randomize the abilities, it will inevitability end up looking really racist.

Before you add this kind of a "feature" into a game, you really need to give a lot of thought and careful consideration about the message you want to send and what you are trying to achieve. Or you run the risk of making a game that promotes ideas about skin color that you don't believe or want to support.

Last edited by DestinyCall (2020-09-30 17:37:42)

Spoonwood · 2020-09-30 18:11:54

Cryoes wrote:

I don't know if you are a troll or retarded... which is it?

Neither. I posted what I think. I more-or-less needed the entire post, or close to it, to express what I think. You didn't read it. So, I don't think you understand my position. Here's two relevant questions that are short:

Of all the races in the game, why did Jason pick whites to have the ability to *understand* other languages always, and rather quickly? Also, as Eve Troll has suggested, why did gingers, a sub-type of white people in the real world, to have serious advantages at the highest technological parts of the game?

Cryoes wrote:

I mean the blonde family ...

Inaccurate, or less accurate than 'white'. Not all of those character models are blonde at some point in their life. The character based on Jason's mother is brunette. The male character holding the baby here http://onehouronelife.com/ in the left picture is also brunette.

Spoonwood · 2020-09-30 18:17:42

DestinyCall wrote:

Actually, if you consider ginger-headed whites and non-ginger whites as a single race with two different sub-groups, then it looks even worse. That means white people get two super-powers instead of just one!

That was Eve Troll's intended argument, I think. And I agree.

DestinyCall wrote:

Time is the most precious resource in OHOL and having the universal translator ability can save a lot of time.

That is a good point, not pointed out in this discussion before. Well, maybe not "the" most precious resource, but it's up there for sure.

DestinyCall · 2020-09-30 18:30:16

I stand by my statement. Time is the most precious resource in this game, bar none.

All other resources can be accumulated into excess by expending time. But time itself is expressly finite, both in the game (one hour = one life) and in reality. You only ever have so much free time to spend on OHOL. So what you do with that time is important. And in the game, you are always on a timer, with the sand constantly falling out of the hourglass as you approach old age.

Almost everything we do is geared toward giving ourselves and future generations more time to play the game. Time to live. Time to work. Time to eat. Time to farm. Time to hunt. Even time to drive cars.

Time is central to OHOL.

Spoonwood · 2020-09-30 19:54:29

DestinyCall wrote:

I stand by my statement. Time is the most precious resource in this game, bar none.
All other resources can be accumulated into excess by expending time. But time itself is expressly finite, both in the game (one hour = one life) and in reality. You only ever have so much free time to spend on OHOL. So what you do with that time is important. And in the game, you are always on a timer, with the sand constantly falling out of the hourglass as you approach old age.
Almost everything we do is geared toward giving ourselves and future generations more time to play the game. Time to live. Time to work. Time to eat. Time to farm. Time to hunt. Even time to drive cars.
Time is central to OHOL.

You might be dead on there. Your argument sounds extremely strong at first read.

DrChef · 2020-09-30 21:33:32

Jason may not hold white supremacist beliefs, but hes definitely unintentionally shown bias. Even when race didnt have mechanical aspects, there were still more white character models, enough that gingers could be separated into their own sub class when he implemented race restrictions.

The real telling thing is how uncritically he implemented 'specializations' based on race. Although he described these as specializations, they're just assigned to races as essential attributes. They're not something they work for or gain over time through discovery like they do in the real world.

Before these changes, race in the game was something players could project onto the world based on visual differences, but now race fundamentally means things about your abilities. This is a racist framework, and an easy one for Jason to implement. Even if whites have the 'worst' race power to some people, Jason lazily implemented a racist framework into his game, and then had the nerve to dismiss people's concerns as being political, when he literally added racial politics and stereotypes from the world into the game.

Eve Troll · 2020-09-30 22:20:58

Race restrictions are just a clumsy system to eliminate self reliance. I honestly think it was added because people were flying through the tech tree too quickly post rift. Even in the rift, tool slots were added because people were able to rush to planes and escape a day after reset.

Any way you try and play them off race restrictions send an offensive message. If you don't see how its offensive then..

I'm really not sure what race restrictions bring to the table. Jason clearly doesn't want families living or working together or he wouldn't have added the homeland mechanic. So what is he looking for? I'm still convinced its just to keep players from preforming at full capacity, just like tool slots.

He wanted to slow us down so he had time to bug fix and add stupid bullshit like leadership. Now that hes actually adding tech i dont see the point in holding us back. The tech tree's ceiling is gray atm. You can never have enough trucks, oil, and iron. The opportunity for monumental structures and cities is there.

Biome restrictions are basically like clipping the wings of a wild bird.

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