The case for legacy mechanics

Eve Troll · 2020-10-19 23:26:12

Biggest thing missing in this game is legacy. Nothing lasts and due to the quickly moving spawn mechanics and overall forced turnover, gen food decay, everything gets wadded up and thrown in the trash in a couple days.

I never played this game to raise kids, or to bake, or to even build structures. I was attracted to this game because we all worked together to build a future for each other. This kind of system was far more common in the past when the only weakness a family faced was its own stability. Legacy mattered and you could spawn back to a town a day or two later and see that forge you built still rolling hot.

Even the rift had better legacy mechanics than the game in its current state. If you build a grand fortress city it lived until the arc reset. Potentially housing many families over hundreds of years.

Legacy is the value on a player's effort and as i see the game in its current state that value is underappreciated, and more often than not thrown away.

Last edited by Eve Troll (2020-10-19 23:28:56)

NoTruePunk · 2020-10-20 00:57:57

Iron and food decay and stuff is all fine. Biggest issue is the eve spawn snake. As soon as a nearby group of stable villages starts to die and break up there's a runaway effect. Dying sends you further away which makes it harder to trade for the rubber you need for your well, which makes it harder to stay alive which sends you further and further out.

Combine that with everyone using /die when they spawn in the new low tech villages, and the fact that 90% of players in the high tech villages will never touch a waystone.

People with the capacity to trade don't need to and people with the need to trade can't. The distance is just too vast.

Spoonwood · 2020-10-20 01:20:05

NoTruePunk wrote:

People with the capacity to trade don't need to and people with the need to trade can't.

I don't think it's mostly trading. I think it's mostly dumping, gifting, and taking. Ginger deliverers paying it forward. Palm kernels dumped in badlands or in towns. Buckets of latex left around. Bowls of sulfur also. And more.

NoTruePunk · 2020-10-20 01:45:20

Spoonwood wrote:

NoTruePunk wrote:
People with the capacity to trade don't need to and people with the need to trade can't.
I don't think it's mostly trading. I think it's mostly dumping, gifting, and taking. Ginger deliverers paying it forward. Palm kernels dumped in badlands or in towns. Buckets of latex left around. Bowls of sulfur also. And more.

That's metagaming, not real trade.

Eve Troll · 2020-10-20 01:48:14

Ohol will always be ruled by meta gaming as long as there are people who understand it and have the ambition to see it through. Main point of this thread was that the effort you put forward doesnt resonate for long and is often thrown out the window in a day or two. Due to eve spawn mechanics and the desire to restrict lineage lengths.

Last edited by Eve Troll (2020-10-20 01:49:26)

NoTruePunk · 2020-10-20 02:01:20

Eve Troll wrote:

Ohol will always be ruled by meta gaming as long as there are people who understand it and have the ambition to see it through. Main point of this thread was that the effort you put forward doesnt resonate for long and is often thrown out the window in a day or two. Due to eve spawn mechanics and the desire to restrict lineage lengths.

I think there's a compromise possible between "infinite legacy resources" and current "deplete no matter what" resources. The jump from a newcomen well to a diesel well unlocks infinite water, but the barrier to entry is high enough that lots of families never make it. I think the same could be done for kero. With some advanced chemistry or mechanisms families should be able to re-drill exhausted oil wells and get them flowing again.

Spoonwood · 2020-10-20 02:12:19

NoTruePunk wrote:

The jump from a newcomen well to a diesel well unlocks infinite water ...

No. Tarry spots break, and oil wells deplete. The *local* supply of water may become more abundant than what anyone cares about at present. But, it is not infinite. Not on bigserver2.

When you first played, tarry spots didn't break though, if they existed at that time. I mean, they didn't break in January of 2019 or December of 2019 (they didn't exist before then though... or at least oil rigs didn't).

You can check onetech on tarry spots and oil wells having a finite number of uses.

NoTruePunk · 2020-10-20 04:57:37

Spoonwood wrote:

NoTruePunk wrote:
The jump from a newcomen well to a diesel well unlocks infinite water ...
No. Tarry spots break, and oil wells deplete. The *local* supply of water may become more abundant than what anyone cares about at present. But, it is not infinite. Not on bigserver2.
When you first played, tarry spots didn't break though, if they existed at that time. I mean, they didn't break in January of 2019 or December of 2019 (they didn't exist before then though... or at least oil rigs didn't).
You can check onetech on tarry spots and oil wells having a finite number of uses.

The map is infinite, so kero is infinite. It's just a logistical hurdle harvesting and hauling it.

Eve Troll · 2020-10-20 05:36:22

Towns quickly outgrow their resources so saying they are infinite is naive. The most important resource is time. So the larger a town grows and the more resources it depletes the more time it takes to get the resources it needs. Eventually it will take a lifetime to get some stone, or round rocks, anything basic.

Towns are built to die. No matter how hard we work. How spawns and race restrictions are structured leaves the longevity of families in the hands of jason, not us. Those 600 plus gen fams.. where they because of our hard work or because jason decided spawns should be structured 'this' or 'that' way. If you have played long enough you should know the answer.

There are dozens of mechanisms limiting growth, limiting stability, and limiting diversity. Why? Either because jason has some fucked up ideals about how society should exist and has a hubris beyond satan's to think he can control the chaos that is humanity. Or maybe he just can't afford servers that can support serious growth.. so he limits our ability to enable that growth. With tool slots, race restrictions, a rift, iron changes, homeland changes, and now this...

Wake up people. If you have been around long enough you know whats *actually* happening with the new change. Further down the path of monotony and predictability. Jason's only response to his inability to manage and balance a living player base.

Last edited by Eve Troll (2020-10-20 06:26:56)

Spoonwood · 2020-10-20 13:02:33

NoTruePunk wrote:

Spoonwood wrote:
NoTruePunk wrote:
The jump from a newcomen well to a diesel well unlocks infinite water ...
No. Tarry spots break, and oil wells deplete. The *local* supply of water may become more abundant than what anyone cares about at present. But, it is not infinite. Not on bigserver2.
When you first played, tarry spots didn't break though, if they existed at that time. I mean, they didn't break in January of 2019 or December of 2019 (they didn't exist before then though... or at least oil rigs didn't).
You can check onetech on tarry spots and oil wells having a finite number of uses.
The map is infinite, so kero is infinite. It's just a logistical hurdle harvesting and hauling it.

The map is finite. Always has been, despite Jason saying otherwise misleadingly. It has edges and is flat. It's just bigger than what people have the time to travel.

Last edited by Spoonwood (2020-10-20 13:03:00)

Spoonwood · 2020-10-20 13:04:59

Eve Troll wrote:

Towns quickly outgrow their resources so saying they are infinite is naive. The most important resource is time. So the larger a town grows and the more resources it depletes the more time it takes to get the resources it needs. Eventually it will take a lifetime to get some stone, or round rocks, anything basic.
Towns are built to die. No matter how hard we work. How spawns and race restrictions are structured leaves the longevity of families in the hands of jason, not us. Those 600 plus gen fams.. where they because of our hard work or because jason decided spawns should be structured 'this' or 'that' way. If you have played long enough you should know the answer.
There are dozens of mechanisms limiting growth, limiting stability, and limiting diversity. Why? Either because jason has some fucked up ideals about how society should exist and has a hubris beyond satan's to think he can control the chaos that is humanity. Or maybe he just can't afford servers that can support serious growth.. so he limits our ability to enable that growth. With tool slots, race restrictions, a rift, iron changes, homeland changes, and now this...
Wake up people. If you have been around long enough you know whats *actually* happening with the new change. Further down the path of monotony and predictability. Jason's only response to his inability to manage and balance a living player base.

More interesting that what I had to say.

JonySky · 2020-10-20 15:53:19

Eve Troll wrote:

Towns quickly outgrow their resources so saying they are infinite is naive. The most important resource is time. So the larger a town grows and the more resources it depletes the more time it takes to get the resources it needs. Eventually it will take a lifetime to get some stone, or round rocks, anything basic.
Towns are built to die. No matter how hard we work. How spawns and race restrictions are structured leaves the longevity of families in the hands of jason, not us. Those 600 plus gen fams.. where they because of our hard work or because jason decided spawns should be structured 'this' or 'that' way. If you have played long enough you should know the answer.
There are dozens of mechanisms limiting growth, limiting stability, and limiting diversity. Why? Either because jason has some fucked up ideals about how society should exist and has a hubris beyond satan's to think he can control the chaos that is humanity. Or maybe he just can't afford servers that can support serious growth.. so he limits our ability to enable that growth. With tool slots, race restrictions, a rift, iron changes, homeland changes, and now this...
Wake up people. If you have been around long enough you know whats *actually* happening with the new change. Further down the path of monotony and predictability. Jason's only response to his inability to manage and balance a living player base.

+1, Bravo!

JonySky · 2020-10-20 16:08:13

NoTruePunk wrote:

Spoonwood wrote:
NoTruePunk wrote:
The jump from a newcomen well to a diesel well unlocks infinite water ...
No. Tarry spots break, and oil wells deplete. The *local* supply of water may become more abundant than what anyone cares about at present. But, it is not infinite. Not on bigserver2.
When you first played, tarry spots didn't break though, if they existed at that time. I mean, they didn't break in January of 2019 or December of 2019 (they didn't exist before then though... or at least oil rigs didn't).
You can check onetech on tarry spots and oil wells having a finite number of uses.
The map is infinite, so kero is infinite. It's just a logistical hurdle harvesting and hauling it.

it is simple to understand!
You live 60 minutes ... if the resources are more than 30 minutes away, you will never be able to return with these resources to your city

Although the map is infinite ... your time is not

Arcurus · 2020-10-20 19:12:09

JonySky wrote:

Although the map is infinite ... your time is not

are you sure about that?

https://youtu.be/1JCRDaa3ehk?t=956

time =~ wobble bobble dab dab...

That one is also nice:
"Stating forward and your slice of now will skew. Ahead of you, things once in the future will become the present and behind you the past and what once the present is now in the feature. walk in circles around the room and your entire now slice tilts crazily like a ship deck a storm"

Have fun time surfing in your storm of now!
https://youtu.be/EagNUvNfsUI?t=524

Last edited by Arcurus (2020-10-20 19:40:13)

NoTruePunk · 2020-10-20 23:36:04

JonySky wrote:

NoTruePunk wrote:
Spoonwood wrote:
No. Tarry spots break, and oil wells deplete. The *local* supply of water may become more abundant than what anyone cares about at present. But, it is not infinite. Not on bigserver2.
When you first played, tarry spots didn't break though, if they existed at that time. I mean, they didn't break in January of 2019 or December of 2019 (they didn't exist before then though... or at least oil rigs didn't).
You can check onetech on tarry spots and oil wells having a finite number of uses.
The map is infinite, so kero is infinite. It's just a logistical hurdle harvesting and hauling it.
it is simple to understand!
You live 60 minutes ... if the resources are more than 30 minutes away, you will never be able to return with these resources to your city
Although the map is infinite ... your time is not

Airplanes

Last edited by NoTruePunk (2020-10-20 23:36:33)

Spoonwood · 2020-10-21 05:18:26

NoTruePunk wrote:

JonySky wrote:
NoTruePunk wrote:
The map is infinite, so kero is infinite. It's just a logistical hurdle harvesting and hauling it.
it is simple to understand!
You live 60 minutes ... if the resources are more than 30 minutes away, you will never be able to return with these resources to your city
Although the map is infinite ... your time is not
Airplanes

Those don't work without a landing pad. If used, how did the landing pad get there? Also, if there exist multiple landing pads, isn't directing one's landing an issue? Additionally, it's basically one charge of kerosene for each use on an airplane. And they have to get built first, of course.

JonySky · 2020-10-21 08:45:26

NoTruePunk wrote:

JonySky wrote:
NoTruePunk wrote:
The map is infinite, so kero is infinite. It's just a logistical hurdle harvesting and hauling it.
it is simple to understand!
You live 60 minutes ... if the resources are more than 30 minutes away, you will never be able to return with these resources to your city
Although the map is infinite ... your time is not
Airplanes

Good luck with that!

NoTruePunk · 2020-10-21 17:29:14

Spoonwood wrote:

NoTruePunk wrote:
JonySky wrote:
it is simple to understand!
You live 60 minutes ... if the resources are more than 30 minutes away, you will never be able to return with these resources to your city
Although the map is infinite ... your time is not
Airplanes
Those don't work without a landing pad. If used, how did the landing pad get there? Also, if there exist multiple landing pads, isn't directing one's landing an issue? Additionally, it's basically one charge of kerosene for each use on an airplane. And they have to get built first, of course.

Put kero in plane.
Put flat rock in plane
Put plaster in plane
Fly
Build runway wherever it is you land
Fly back
Bootstrap cheap stuff like rocks, rope, charcoal, etc.
Fly in atmospheric core, pipes, engine, etc
Drill and pump (quickly)
Get an apprentice if you can't finish pumping before you die.

Spoonwood · 2020-10-21 17:41:06

NoTruePunk wrote:

Put kero in plane.
Put flat rock in plane
Put plaster in plane
Fly
Build runway wherever it is you land

What? I think if you do that, you have another landing pad where you landed. If there's only one landing pad on a server, when you take off, I think you just end up on your own take off point.

antking:]# · 2020-10-21 18:35:12

Spoonwood wrote:

NoTruePunk wrote:
Put kero in plane.
Put flat rock in plane
Put plaster in plane
Fly
Build runway wherever it is you land
What? I think if you do that, you have another landing pad where you landed. If there's only one landing pad on a server, when you take off, I think you just end up on your own take off point.

you will just land in a random location that faces your launch point

Spoonwood · 2020-10-21 20:08:52

antking:]# wrote:

Spoonwood wrote:
NoTruePunk wrote:
Put kero in plane.
Put flat rock in plane
Put plaster in plane
Fly
Build runway wherever it is you land
What? I think if you do that, you have another landing pad where you landed. If there's only one landing pad on a server, when you take off, I think you just end up on your own take off point.
you will just land in a random location that faces your launch point

Such seems rather random for it end up as productive. You would need to get up a forge and a bowl each time you land in the wild also in order to fly back. And the plaster, and stakes. Maybe there could exist some circumstance where it pays off, but I'll guess that in plenty of cases it would backfire in terms of productivity.

Eve Troll · 2020-10-21 23:01:27

I think we are getting a little off track here.

But is someone seriously suggesting getting oil by plane? Because.. thats literally the dumbest thing ive ever heard on these forums, and that's saying something.

If an advanced plane was added where it didnt run out of fuel in one flight and had storage space on par or better than the truck then it would be reasonable. But the whole plane system needs to be retrofitted if we want to see quality results. Maybe something similar to the key system or idk.

Anyway. Main issue is spawn mechanics. Played a few lives yesterday and everyone was so far spread. When a ginger family is fresh but the tech of the remaining families is advanced it forces a nasty turn over. Main issue i see is the spawn pattern. Simply moving west is painful. A day old family died out one of my lives and was 1.5k away from the new fams. If we are moving a kilometer a day we will never see long lived or stable towns and bloodlines.

Another issue i saw was people can rush engine wells. This isnt a big deal in general, but when gingers are not advanced enough to make oil and there is no kerosene on the map its a death sentence. A rare moment i actually wanted to deal with a newcommen pump.

Main splinters i see in the game are, all families are forced to work together but we are not allowed to live close to each other, spawns move too quickly to maintain families and towns, gingers are the only thing keeping advanced towns alive, and we are losing more than we are gaining on a daily basis. Player effort shouldn't just be dust in the wind.

Last edited by Eve Troll (2020-10-21 23:04:37)

Spoonwood · 2020-10-22 00:04:05

Families with weak spots also move and resettle right, as happened with Black Tears a few weeks ago: http://lineage.onehouronelife.com/serve … id=6663963. I know they resettled a dead town, because I had played there before. Then when a new family spawns, they end up left. That spreads families out.

Last edited by Spoonwood (2020-10-22 00:18:03)

NoTruePunk · 2020-10-22 01:41:51

Put plaster in plane.
You would need to get up a forge and a bowl each time you land in the wild also in order to fly back. And the plaster, and stakes.

You're not a good listener

Spoonwood · 2020-10-22 02:38:08

NoTruePunk wrote:

Put plaster in plane.
You would need to get up a forge and a bowl each time you land in the wild also in order to fly back. And the plaster, and stakes.
You're not a good listener

I think you would have done better to say that I'm not a good reader.

I think Eve Troll correct though. Oh, and also keep in mind that landing strips decay. I remain skeptical that using a plane like that would have serious benefits.

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The case for legacy mechanics

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