Can This Game Evolve Beyond White Supremacy?

Spoonwood · 2020-11-02 23:33:58

And now the Tarr monument is at (0, 0) in the white band on a server with more than 15 players on it. It seems that no, the large population game won't evolve beyond white supremacy.

MrGold · 2020-11-02 23:52:12

Funny

NoisyForest · 2020-11-03 01:47:34

Reading this thread is almost better than Netflix lol.

FishRfriendsnotfood · 2020-11-03 02:22:40

what does the Tarr monument have to do with White supremacy. If you don't answer with 1,000 words or more, than I'm revoking your spoon.

DestinyCall · 2020-11-03 02:44:36

But if you take away his spoon, he will be nothing but wood.

Are we ready for that?

Spoonwood · 2020-11-03 03:13:01

FishRfriendsnotfood wrote:

what does the Tarr monument have to do with White supremacy. If you don't answer with 1,000 words or more, than I'm revoking your spoon.

The Tarr monument itself doesn't. But, the Tarr monument is just a means to locate the (0, 0) point of the map, which is it's center. That (0, 0) point is in the white family's band. That whites are at the center of the map does have something to do with the game's interpretation, because it's like saying that whites belong or can master being at the center of the world, while others can't.

Tarr also said on the discord that he confirmed after the arc reset last week that whites can have children in the band above the snowy band, and below the desert band. I don't know if that holds or not, though as I understand it, Tarr has used a private server of his own to test things before, so I don't have a reason to doubt him. There does exist code which looks it's intended such that whites only have one band instead of almost the whole map for fertility purposes here though: https://github.com/jasonrohrer/OneLife/ … 37d82b6d60

Last edited by Spoonwood (2020-11-03 03:15:49)

Dodge · 2020-11-03 06:07:25

"because it's like saying that whites belong or can master being at the center of the world, while others can't."

I truly pity people that see racism everywhere, a very sad way to live.

Spoonwood · 2020-11-03 06:49:08

Dodge wrote:

"because it's like saying that whites belong or can master being at the center of the world, while others can't."
I truly pity people that see racism everywhere, a very sad way to live.

I'm very sure that the scope of this game is extremely far from "everywhere". If you thought you were pitying me Dodge, you are simply wrong in thinking that you were pitying me Dodge. And I don't think pity was the emotion that you felt when writing the above also.

Chestburster · 2020-11-04 22:34:28

what the fuck

Seriously Spoonwood what is it with you that causes you to come up with this kind of shit?

Are you on the spectrum or something? Not trying to be offensive, I just don't know what the explanation is for some of your behavior.

Last edited by Chestburster (2020-11-04 22:38:21)

NoTruePunk · 2020-11-04 23:58:22

I don't think the "center of the world" thing has much weight tbh. Their position is no more central than the jungle family's. y=-50 and y=50 are equally central, and only the jungle fam can live in -50 area.

More concerning is the idea that there are some fundamental abilities or skills certain races have innately, and others they lack. There are lots of historical cases of sailors being washed ashore in foreign lands and integrating with the locals, escaped slaves, spontaneous migrants, etc. It doesn't take long for people to pick up on local practices, maybe a generation at most. Much faster than genes move certainly.

This idea is purely an invention by racists who had an interest in building these associations. It's really hard to look at race specializations and not see it was inspired by the fabrications of the racist doctors and politicians. There are doctors who still believe to this day that black people don't feel as much pain as white people, and lots of people who believe skin lightness corresponds to intelligence.

The ginger's mechanical skills with pumping and the white ppl's translation are both technically advanced intelligence based skills, while the jungle and desert ppl are essentially simple laborers. The jungle and desert are resource rich, which mirrors the real world phenomena of Structural Adjustment, wherein resource rich countries in regions like the middle east, Africa and south America are to this day bound into contractual bureaucratic chains dictating that they export these raw resources to predominantly white countries for fabrication, the products of which are then sold back at a premium. This is basically what England tried to do to the American colonies before the revolutionary war. It's a huge scam designed to afford the buying countries the luxury of those finished goods AND the profit of the raw resources they require. And yeah it was racist back then too, because back before the revolutionary war racism against Irish ppl was still a thing, not to mention the displacement of the native people through the whole process.

If y'all are white and still can't see it just imagine you're in the place of those shipwrecked sailors or the escaped slave, with no other option but to live with the local inhabitants of your new home. You don't speak their language, and share no culture. It might seem impossible or unrelatable, but that's just because white people have never had to. There's an unbroken cultural or genetic history that white people share, one that's been accomplished through domination over others.

If the idea of sharing technology and skills with other races seems foreign to you or the dev, if it's really unthinkable that the different families would share the same skills or if it's reasonable to have them separate, that perspective can really only be coming from a place of privilege.

Last edited by NoTruePunk (2020-11-05 00:15:21)

DestinyCall · 2020-11-05 00:59:15

Well said, NoTruePunk. I strongly agree.

I was really disappointed when biome restrictions were added into this game in such lazy and color-focused way. I don't think Jason was intentionally trying to be racist when he made the original update, but concerns were raised immediately. It speaks to his sense of entitlement and privilege that he dismissed the issue as completely irrelevant.

Being blind to your own biases is not the same as being unbiased.

Spoonwood · 2020-11-05 02:00:04

DestinyCall wrote:

I was really disappointed when biome restrictions were added into this game in such lazy and color-focused way.

I've been able to understand players whose characters had other races in the low pop context for a while now (though initially after The Come Together Disaster, I couldn't understand players who spoke through other race characters). I'm not sure what the conditions are, as my recollection was that there was some time where I could understand characters from other races after The Come Together Disaster, but before The Rift. During The Rift, and the week after, white families couldn't understand other families on bs2, right?

They are NOT biome based restrictions. Stop spreading that term, as it is a lie. Biomes are NOT restricted by the relevant changes. Also, just talking about race and population based player holding of objects in biomes isn't complete. The race changes *enhanced* whites abilities, while keeping all of the other races intellectual abilities in same state of a lack of understanding, and thus took away from the characters. They made those characters have less depth, since they couldn't do as much, except for whites, who got some new depth in that they had the ability to understand other races.

DestinyCall wrote:

I don't think Jason was intentionally trying to be racist when he made the original update, but concerns were raised immediately.

He KNEW he was giving a benefit to whites by the time the update came out:

jasonrohrer wrote:

The fourth skin tone has no biome specialty, but gains the polylingual ability to communicate with all the other families, so they can help with the coordination and trading efforts.

https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=8439

He knew that whites would have more depth as characters since they would be more understandable.

That sure does sound like how a white supremacist would act when talking about other people, because they imply that white people have deeper lives than non-white people.

DestinyCall · 2020-11-05 04:56:02

You really need to learn how to pick your battles better, Spoonwood.

There is a real problem with how race is handled OHOL. Why do you keep trying to focus on this white supremacy BS? It doesn't help.

It is like some kind of reverse-strawman fallacy. You are arguing for a flawed and weaker version of your own position. It baffles me.

NoTruePunk · 2020-11-05 05:06:33

yeah spoon you need to make a distinction between casual and systemic racism vs white supremacy. White supremacy is intentional, if sometimes covert. I don't think these features are white supremacist, though they are casually racist.

Spoonwood · 2020-11-05 15:02:52

DestinyCall wrote:

There is a real problem with how race is handled OHOL. Why do you keep trying to focus on this white supremacy BS? It doesn't help.

Part of the problem with how race gets handled is that whites end up with more ability to understand what other characters say than all other races.

NoTruePunk wrote:

White supremacy is intentional, if sometimes covert. I don't think these features are white supremacist, though they are casually racist.

Jason intentionally gave whites the ability to understand what members of other races had communicated, given that the player understands the same real world language as the other player speaks. That makes for a sign that whites are intellectually superior characters. I don't know of anything that seriously contradicts that.

DestinyCall · 2020-11-05 15:09:09

Your ability to miss the point is as impressive as it is disappointing.

Like being able to turn invisible, but only when nobody is looking at you. Or being able to understand any language in a world where nobody talks to each other.

DestinyCall · 2020-11-05 20:42:13

Discussion merged from https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewt … =10247&p=3

Spoonwood wrote:

If you seriously think that argument in my previous comment was in error, then where is the error? Where was the inaccuracy? Where did I make an inaccurate statement? Where did I overgeneralize? Where did I get the characters wrong?
Because as far as I can tell it is 100% accurate to claim that without language learning, white characters can understand more than other in game characters for 15+ player ohol. As far as I can tell, it is 100% accurate to claim that "If a being A can understand more than a distinct being B, then being A is more intelligent than being B. " So, what exactly was wrong with my argument Destiny? Or did you respond mostly, if not entirely, on the basis of how you felt?

I accused you of being a white supremacist and your defense is that whites ARE superior to other races, so how can you be wrong to think they are better?

Again .. this is how racist people think. They don't realize their beliefs are biased. They are sure that they are seeing things how they actually are, because it fits with their world view and supports the "facts" that they want to believe.

Casual racism is unfortunately pretty common. It is very hard to notice when you are over-generalizing or stereotyping a group of people yourself or completely avoid it, because we do it all the time for the sake of brevity and to avoid unnecessarily lengthy explanations. Most of the time, there is no harm in it. But when you take things too far, it can get real ugly real fast. I definitely think Jason is guilty of some casual racism, especially related to his justifications for why different skin colors were assigned their respective special zones. Not cool, but not as bad as full-blown racism or white supremacy.

For what it is worth, I don't think you are a white supremacist anymore than I think Jason is one. Even if you clearly think that whites are superior to other races in OHOL.

BUT i do think that your fixation on the universal translator ability (or WHITE POWER as I will now call it) is a reflection of your own personal biases. Not toward race, but toward ability. I strongly suspect you are an intellectual elitist.

The other races all have abilities that represent physical fortitude - the ability to survive and work in an extreme environment. Heat tolerance, cold tolerance, jungle tolerance. They are all physically more powerful than the frail and wimpy white boys who must beg, borrow, or steal precious resources to survive. Yet the unique physical abilities of other races clearly pale in comparison to the more substantial mental abilities of the translator race in your mind.

It is pretty obvious that you consider intellectual acuity as a superior asset compared to physical prowess. That's your bias.

Spoonwood · 2020-11-05 22:21:56

DestinyCall wrote:

I accused you of being a white supremacist and your defense is that whites ARE superior to other races, so how can you be wrong to think they are better?

I said smarter, not superior. OHOL's white characters are superior in terms of intelligence. I didn't say they were superior in every respect.

DestinyCall wrote:

BUT i do think that your fixation on the universal translator ability (or WHITE POWER as I will now call it) is a reflection of your own personal biases. Not toward race, but toward ability. I strongly suspect you are an intellectual elitist.

Understanding is power? Understanding gets things done? Understanding influences people? Understanding changes how things work in the real world? Understanding makes people more likely to work well in teams in the real world? All of those questions seem silly. But, for what reason would you think that I believe that people with more intelligence makes them better in the real world, and with respect to what? I denied people have more being than other people in another discussion, didn't I?

DestinyCall wrote:

The other races all have abilities that represent physical fortitude - the ability to survive and work in an extreme environment. Heat tolerance, cold tolerance, jungle tolerance. They are all physically more powerful than the frail and wimpy white boys who must beg, borrow, or steal precious resources to survive. Yet the unique physical abilities of other races clearly pale in comparison to the more substantial mental abilities of the translator race in your mind.

Huh? Why would you think that I would compare mental abilities to physical abilities in some general sense? Mental abilities and physical abilities are different in kind. They do NOT belong to the same category of things. Comparing those two would just invite category errors. It would be like asking which person is superior: the winner of the marathon at the Olympics (which does require mental intelligence also for the record), or the world memory champion (or the world Go or chess champion... maybe) or the highest scorer of a math competition? But the marathon runner trains for and competes in a different competition than the person in a memory competition. They aren't even trying to accomplish the same thing, so comparison doesn't have too much to it.

DestinyCall wrote:

It is pretty obvious that you consider intellectual acuity as a superior asset compared to physical prowess.

For what end? For what endeavor? To satisfy which goal? For which socitey? For which beings?

No Destiny, I wouldn't consider intellectual acuity as a superior asset compared to physical prowess in some general sense. Doing such would involve a mistake of over generalization.

However, there does exist such a thing as intellectual gradations. There is no race in OHOL that has superior physical ability in comparison to all other races. For bs2 OHOL in contrast, maybe it's 15+ player bs2 OHOL, whites have superior intellectual ability in comparison to all other races.

MrGold · 2020-11-05 22:49:19

Spoonwood wrote:

DestinyCall wrote:
I accused you of being a white supremacist and your defense is that whites ARE superior to other races, so how can you be wrong to think they are better?
I said smarter, not superior. OHOL's white characters are superior in terms of intelligence. I didn't say they were superior in every respect.
DestinyCall wrote:
BUT i do think that your fixation on the universal translator ability (or WHITE POWER as I will now call it) is a reflection of your own personal biases. Not toward race, but toward ability. I strongly suspect you are an intellectual elitist.
Understanding is power? Understanding gets things done? Understanding influences people? Understanding changes how things work in the real world? Understanding makes people more likely to work well in teams in the real world? All of those questions seem silly. But, for what reason would you think that I believe that people with more intelligence makes them better in the real world, and with respect to what? I denied people have more being than other people in another discussion, didn't I?
DestinyCall wrote:
The other races all have abilities that represent physical fortitude - the ability to survive and work in an extreme environment. Heat tolerance, cold tolerance, jungle tolerance. They are all physically more powerful than the frail and wimpy white boys who must beg, borrow, or steal precious resources to survive. Yet the unique physical abilities of other races clearly pale in comparison to the more substantial mental abilities of the translator race in your mind.
Huh? Why would you think that I would compare mental abilities to physical abilities in some general sense? Mental abilities and physical abilities are different in kind. They do NOT belong to the same category of things. Comparing those two would just invite category errors. It would be like asking which person is superior: the winner of the marathon at the Olympics (which does require mental intelligence also for the record), or the world memory champion (or the world Go or chess champion... maybe) or the highest scorer of a math competition? But the marathon runner trains for and competes in a different competition than the person in a memory competition. They aren't even trying to accomplish the same thing, so comparison doesn't have too much to it.
DestinyCall wrote:
It is pretty obvious that you consider intellectual acuity as a superior asset compared to physical prowess.
For what end? For what endeavor? To satisfy which goal? For which socitey? For which beings?
No Destiny, I wouldn't consider intellectual acuity as a superior asset compared to physical prowess in some general sense. Doing such would involve a mistake of over generalization.
However, there does exist such a thing as intellectual gradations. There is no race in OHOL that has superior physical ability in comparison to all other races. For bs2 OHOL in contrast, maybe it's 15+ player bs2 OHOL, whites have superior intellectual ability in comparison to all other races.

funny post, do you spend your entire day here?

Last edited by MrGold (2020-11-05 22:49:37)

DiscardedSlinky · 2020-11-05 23:41:20

GUYS.

I HAVE SOMETHING TO SAY.

I want to cheese grater someone's nipples off and put the nipple shreds on my spaghetti

FishRfriendsnotfood · 2020-11-05 23:49:37

Just curious, what is the purpose of this thread? Literally none of this affects you in real life, so why waste the energy with repetitive, boring, arguing. Go outside, fresh air is good for your lungs.

DestinyCall · 2020-11-05 23:51:28

DiscardedSlinky wrote:

GUYS.
I HAVE SOMETHING TO SAY.
I want to cheese grater someone's nipples off and put the nipple shreds on my spaghetti

Me too, Slinky. Me too.

DestinyCall · 2020-11-05 23:56:19

Spoonwood wrote:

However, there does exist such a thing as intellectual gradations. There is no race in OHOL that has superior physical ability in comparison to all other races. For bs2 OHOL in contrast, maybe it's 15+ player bs2 OHOL, whites have superior intellectual ability in comparison to all other races.

No. They really do not.

There is no basis for your belief that WHITE POWER grants vanillas higher intelligence. It just removes the in-game chat filter. Intellect has nothing to do with it.

Spoonwood · 2020-11-06 01:47:55

DestinyCall wrote:

There is no basis for your belief that WHITE POWER grants vanillas higher intelligence.

What are you talking about? There is no power on the basis of whiteness. I don't have a belief that "white power" grants white characters higher intelligence.

A belief in "white power" isn't required for someone to be a white supremacist. A person just has to believe that whites are supreme in some respect on the basis of their whiteness.

DestinyCall wrote:

It just removes the in-game chat filter.

Likely not. There's first a check of how many players are on the server. If it's under 15, then encoding of player generated text into (usually) nonsensical strings is not active. Here's the relevant code section:

https://github.com/jasonrohrer/OneLife/ … fec7c27eeb

Thus, there is NO removal of the in-game chat filter on bigserver2 during the first few minutes/seconds of an update period, or any other server with less than 15 players, or bigserver2 if it has less than 15 players on it, because the language encoding system isn't active for any server with less than 15 players on it.

Now, I will note that bigserver2 gets built up from the low pop context. First there is an Eve. Then there is a baby of that Eve (at least if the trailer is correct). Then there exist more players and deaths, and so on, with population increasing after an update, or a crash. That means that the initial state of all races is, or can be since 4 races might not exist before 15 characters exist on the server, to have understanding of other races speech. But, whites are the only race who have the ability to have their understanding of other races speech *survive* the player count increase. They do not become confused by the number of people on the server/in the world such that they cannot understand other races speech.

Thus, whites natural intellectual attribute of language understanding survives the change from less than 15 players on a server to 15 or more players on a server. Other races natural intellectual attribute of language understanding does not survive that change. And I say that the language understanding is a 'natural' attribute, because from the foundations of the arc or the server since the latest update or crash, members of any race can understand the language of any other race. Also, there exist public 16 servers, and almost the entire time I check, there only exist one server with more than 15 accounts using that server. So, bs2 with more than 15 players on it is more like the exceptional server than the 'typical' or 'average' or 'usual' server.

Whites had something survive that relates to their mind, while non-whites did not.

How does that happen if white characters didn't have stronger minds to begin with? Or what did they have that made their language understanding able to survive the change from 14 players to 15 players, if it wasn't their intellectual ability?

Last edited by Spoonwood (2020-11-06 02:06:15)

Spoonwood · 2020-11-06 01:50:57

MrGold wrote:

funny post, do you spend your entire day here?

I did go out for a walk, drove out for takeout, and helped with a problem around the house. I've also spent sometime watching a stream, and played an OHOL life (but not on bs2).

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#101 2020-11-02 23:33:58

Re: Can This Game Evolve Beyond White Supremacy?

#102 2020-11-02 23:52:12

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#103 2020-11-03 01:47:34

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#104 2020-11-03 02:22:40

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#105 2020-11-03 02:44:36

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#106 2020-11-03 03:13:01

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#107 2020-11-03 06:07:25

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#108 2020-11-03 06:49:08

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#109 2020-11-04 22:34:28

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#110 2020-11-04 23:58:22

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#111 2020-11-05 00:59:15

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#112 2020-11-05 02:00:04

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#113 2020-11-05 04:56:02

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#114 2020-11-05 05:06:33

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#115 2020-11-05 15:02:52

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#116 2020-11-05 15:09:09

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#117 2020-11-05 20:42:13

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#118 2020-11-05 22:21:56

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#119 2020-11-05 22:49:19

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#120 2020-11-05 23:41:20

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#121 2020-11-05 23:49:37

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#122 2020-11-05 23:51:28

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#123 2020-11-05 23:56:19

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#124 2020-11-06 01:47:55

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#125 2020-11-06 01:50:57

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