Can This Game Evolve Beyond White Supremacy?

Spoonwood · 2020-11-06 01:53:26

The answer to the question of this post is 'yes'. The game can evolve beyond the white supremacy of whites having more intellectual ability than other races, by every server consistently having less than 15 players on it.

DestinyCall · 2020-11-06 02:38:55

Spoonwood wrote:

How does that happen if white characters didn't have stronger minds to begin with? Or what did they have that made their language understanding able to survive the change from 14 players to 15 players, if it wasn't their intellectual ability?

It happens because there is a line of code that checks server population before applying the chat filter. Vanillas do not have greater intellectual ability. Vanillas just lack the filter that other races get when the language barrier is in effect.

This is a game, Spoonwood.

The white people's ability to understand the languages of other families does not "survive" because they possess greater intellectual fortitude. It can't survive, because it never existed. White people don't understand other languages any better than other races, because the other families are not even speaking different languages. It is a chat filter.

WHITE POWER is simply the "ability" to not have that limitation in affect on a high population server. You are overthinking and attributing values that do not exist in OHOL.

Spoonwood · 2020-11-06 04:16:16

Spoonwood wrote:

How does that happen if white characters didn't have stronger minds to begin with? Or what did they have that made their language understanding able to survive the change from 14 players to 15 players, if it wasn't their intellectual ability?

DestinyCall wrote:

It happens because there is a line of code that checks server population before applying the chat filter. Vanillas do not have greater intellectual ability. Vanillas just lack the filter that other races get when the language barrier is in effect.

You didn't answer any question about the characters. I thought asked about the characters, though perhaps I didn't make that clear enough? It seems like you don't have an interest in imagining what the characters are like. If so, that's not surprising to me. Why bother understanding or imagining what such characters are like when they get deliberately made duller and less dynamic than they once were in the large population context?

DestinyCall wrote:

Vanillas just lack the filter that other races get when the language barrier is in effect.

The definitions of 'filter' that I see here: https://www.thefreedictionary.com/filter all seem to have in common that some purification process takes place. The mathematical use of the word 'filter' (which has a definition) I believe gets intended to work that way also, and so does a filter on one's car. A player typing in say Spanish, and then the text getting seen in a bunch of strings in a non-recognizable unnatural language is NOT a purification process. It's more like a distortion or dirtying process. White OHOL characters get the pure text that other players input. Non-white characters get distorted or dirtied text or encoded text. They can't perceive what the symbols got produced by other characters, when character population is 15 or more on a server/in the world (and no language learning takes place), and both players have different races, and neither of the races is white/vanilla. Lack of being able to perceive something that others can see is another way in which some people are less intelligent than other people.

DestinyCall wrote:

This is a game, Spoonwood.

Are you implying that it's not worth imagining what the characters are like? If you are implying that, how in the world can one play the character or immerse oneself in the character?

DestinyCall wrote:

The white people's ability to understand the languages of other families does not "survive" because they possess greater intellectual fortitude. It can't survive, because it never existed.

So do you think that the OHOL characters can't and never did understand anything at all? Because if you do, then I think you're not being imaginative about the characters in the slightest regard.

Also, I could put it another way. The ability to perceive what symbols got output by any other character *survived* the transition from 14 to 15 players on a server/characters in the world for whites and whites only. For non-white/non-vanilla characters, the ability to perceive what symbols got output by *all other* characters did NOT survive the transition from 14 to 15 characters in the world. Non-whites could no longer perceive what other race characters output as text. Non-whites perception of what symbols other non-white characters of a different family used did not survive the transition from 14 to 15 players in the world. Whites perception of what symbols other race characters used *survived*.

And it's a chat distorter, a chat dirtier, or a chat encoder. Whichever of those you want to call it (or some alternative which makes it clear that such does NOT improve the text, but likely has the opposite effect), it takes in symbols of members of race A and then changes what gets perceived by members of race B (where neither race A nor race B is white/vanilla). And the change is clear in that the text becomes less like what it was originally. The text seen by members of race B is less useful, and less worthy of their recognition. A filter does the opposite, in that it takes what got input and turns it into something more useful, and more worthy of recognition. So, the term 'chat distorter' seems vastly more appropriate.

DestinyCall wrote:

WHITE POWER is simply the "ability" to not have that limitation in affect on a high population server.

You could have, theoretically, used a chat filter to instead output:

DestinyCall wrote:

WHITE POWER is simply the "ability" to not have that limitation in effect on a high population server.

The chat dirtier of ohol wouldn't have output something that I could understand without doing some serious looking into the dirtying process.

DestinyCall · 2020-11-06 04:43:50

Sorry, but I am not interested in using my imagination to manufacture a white supremacy conspiracy where none exists. That seems like a complete waste of my time.

And I say that as someone who obviously isn't afraid to spend my time on pointless discussion and circular debates.

Your "proof" is that you imagine white people might be more intellectual than other races. If they could understand language better than other people. Which they cannot.

It is a bad argument. The horse is dead. Please stop abusing its corpse.

Spoonwood · 2020-11-06 05:46:22

DestinyCall wrote:

Sorry, but I am not interested in using my imagination to manufacture a white supremacy conspiracy where none exists.

I was asking you to imagine what the characters are like. Apparently, you don't have an interest in doing that.

DestinyCall wrote:

Your "proof" is that you imagine white people might be more intellectual than other races. If they could understand language better than other people. Which they cannot.

Did you even read my last comment? Specifically this part?:

Spoonwood wrote:

The ability to perceive what symbols got output by any other character *survived* the transition from 14 to 15 players on a server/characters in the world for whites and whites only. For non-white/non-vanilla characters, the ability to perceive what symbols got output by *all other* characters did NOT survive the transition from 14 to 15 characters in the world. Non-whites could no longer perceive what other [non-white] race characters output as text. Non-whites perception of what symbols other non-white characters of a different family used did not survive the transition from 14 to 15 players in the world. Whites perception of what symbols other race characters used *survived*.

Where did I talk about understanding language there? I don't think I did. So it seems, I can still make the argument that white characters have superior intellectual ability WITHOUT referencing language, because they can perceive all symbols, which are not common numeral symbols, that characters from other races actually made, and aren't subject to the negative effects in terms of what they perceive that the chat distorter subjects non-whites to when non-whites from one family talk to non-whites of a different family.

DestinyCall · 2020-11-06 05:58:03

Spoonwood wrote:

So it seems, I can still make the argument that white characters have superior intellectual ability WITHOUT referencing language, because they can perceive all symbols, which are not common numeral symbols, that characters from other races actually made, and aren't subject to the negative effects in terms of what they perceive that the chat distorter subjects non-whites to when non-whites from one family talk to non-whites of a different family.

Ummm .... would you try a simple test for me? Go find a normal human and read that sentence out loud to them.

If they agree that it sounds like a reasonable argument, I'll try to imagine what the OHOL characters think is happening when the sixteenth player join the server and their neighbors spontaneously start speaking gibberish. If you can't find a normal human, try to imagine yourself as a normal human.

Spoonwood · 2020-11-06 06:48:33

DestinyCall wrote:

...

Sure, what I wrote above wasn't clear writing. But consider that when a server has 15 or more characters on it:

1. Whites can perceive all (non numeral, text-box) symbols made by all other characters.

2. Non-whites can only perceive the (text-box) symbols made by whites or their family members.

3. Non-whites cannot perceive the (text-box) symbols made by other non-whites who are not in their family, at least not without learning.

4. Consequently, whites have superior abilities of perception in comparison to all other races. Specifically, they never fail at seeing what got written in the text box, or when they fail at seeing something like a numeral, all the other races also fail.

5. Superior ability of perception indicates superior intellectual ability.

6. Therefore, white characters have superior intellectual ability over all other ohol characters.

There's NO reference to language in that argument. It does indicate a shitty state of affairs. It should not be the case that white characters have superior intellectual ability for any server at any time. But, I don't think there's a flaw in any of the premises or the reasoning of the argument.

Last edited by Spoonwood (2020-11-06 06:49:09)

DrChef · 2020-11-06 06:59:03

DestinyCall wrote:

The white people's ability to understand the languages of other families does not "survive" because they possess greater intellectual fortitude. It can't survive, because it never existed. White people don't understand other languages any better than other races, because the other families are not even speaking different languages. It is a chat filter.
WHITE POWER is simply the "ability" to not have that limitation in affect on a high population server. You are overthinking and attributing values that do not exist in OHOL.

Does the actual mechanic matter? In terms of typical gameplay, other races take generations to accomplish what whites have innately. Most players won't know why or how Jason added racist tropes to his game but they exist in his gameplay now. Its not reaching to point out how OHOL, a civilization game, simulates reality in a specific ways which present a message about the world. There is a simple yet detailed representation of how to build a car in the game, but brown people need to be in the jungle to have children? It's not a conspiracy either, Jason just clearly doesn't think critically about race, and doesn't think that getting representations of race right would be an important aspect of the greatest game ever.

DiscardedSlinky · 2020-11-06 07:25:11

Does anyone want some nipple spaghetti

ahead · 2020-11-06 09:13:40

white supremacy is awesome, but the current state of the game made it so white people are actually worse off,
because they don't have resources to swap with other people
i propose a change: we give white people all the speciality biomes so we can have better white supremacy

FishRfriendsnotfood · 2020-11-06 12:50:07

DiscardedSlinky wrote:

Does anyone want some nipple spaghetti

I gotta argue that nipple spaghetti would be to chewy, and only those with teeth could eat. Henceforth nipple spaghetti would be discriminating against people with no teeth. Nipple spaghetti promotes ableism.

Rookwood · 2020-11-06 12:54:46

Can our nipples evolve beyond ableism?

DestinyCall · 2020-11-06 13:20:38

Perhaps if people with teeth chew the nipples for the people without teeth, we could find a path to a better, more nippley future.

DiscardedSlinky · 2020-11-06 14:00:39

If people without teeth cannot afford a blender for nipple spaghetti maybe they shouldn't be eating it at all

DestinyCall · 2020-11-06 14:02:31

You could always put the nipples in a clay bowl and grind them with a round stone, like my grandma would do for the kids when I was little.

MrGold · 2020-11-06 14:16:39

Just eat normal spaghetti, you weirdos

DiscardedSlinky · 2020-11-06 14:31:27

MrGold wrote:

Just eat normal spaghetti, you weirdos

HOW FUCKING DARE YOU

DestinyCall · 2020-11-06 15:00:11

Spoonwood wrote:

DestinyCall wrote:
...
Sure, what I wrote above wasn't clear writing. But consider that when a server has 15 or more characters on it:
1. Whites can perceive all (non numeral, text-box) symbols made by all other characters.
2. Non-whites can only perceive the (text-box) symbols made by whites or their family members.
3. Non-whites cannot perceive the (text-box) symbols made by other non-whites who are not in their family, at least not without learning.
4. Consequently, whites have superior abilities of perception in comparison to all other races. Specifically, they never fail at seeing what got written in the text box, or when they fail at seeing something like a numeral, all the other races also fail.
5. Superior ability of perception indicates superior intellectual ability.
6. Therefore, white characters have superior intellectual ability over all other ohol characters.
There's NO reference to language in that argument. It does indicate a shitty state of affairs. It should not be the case that white characters have superior intellectual ability for any server at any time. But, I don't think there's a flaw in any of the premises or the reasoning of the argument.

This is better. Still a stretch, but at least I can follow your reasoning clearly from start to finish. I see a few minor issues, but the main point that I disagree with is #5. I do not think that it is logical to assume that superior perception/understanding indicates superior intellectual ability or high intelligence. There is a connection between the two, but it does not necessarily follow that one will lead to the other. If anything, I would say the opposite is true. That if you are more intelligent, you will be able to perceive more of the world around you and understand it more deeply than someone who is less intelligent. But if someone demonstrates high perception, I don't think it is safe to conclude they are more intelligent than a person with lower perception.

Sort of like how all tigers are cats, but not all cats are tigers. You can't always reverse a relationship and have it remain true.

Unfortunately, it is very difficult to define intelligence in a concise way. I think we could easily fill an entire thread discussing the nature of intelligence, perception, and understanding, without ever coming to a clear conclusion. More intelligent people than me have tried to understand intelligence and multiple theories exist regarding how to best define it. Many of these theories breakdown intellect into various types, rather than trying to find a single umbrella definition that covers all aspects. There's even a theory of intelligence that has a specific type "linguistic intelligence" that focuses on one's ability to perceive and understand languages. Vanillas would certainly score highly in that regard.

Regardless, I don't agree with your assumption that the translator ability means that white people are more intelligent than the other races. For all we know, they could be idiot savants, excelling in language learning, but completely crippled in other aspects of mental acuity because so much of their brain capacity is hyper-specialized at parsing words. Perhaps they can't even do simple arithmetic or remember their child's birthday, yet they can recite the alphabet backwards or remember the word for "bathroom" in thirty languages. Or maybe the translator ability works seamlessly and without any real effort, completely unrelated to other mental tasks, so vanillas would score as having average intelligence in all other regards. This would put them ahead of the other races, but only in relationship to language, nothing else. They would not smarter than anyone else on a practical level, but they might score better on an IQ test, if it had a language category.

We can't really know which of these ideas is "right" because vanillas are not real people and "universal translator" is not a real ability that people can possess. It is essentially a super-power and it could work in whatever way Jason wanted to describe it working, if he ever chose to describe how it works in OHOL.

I do think it is reasonable to say that that the universal translator ability is a mental superpower, while the other races possess physical super powers. The vanillas are the only race that DOES NOT have a physical superpower, so they are clearly physically weaker and inferior to all other races in OHOL. It's kind of sad, really.

Spoonwood · 2020-11-06 16:14:32

DestinyCall wrote:

This would put them ahead of the other races, but only in relationship to language, nothing else. They would not smarter than anyone else on a practical level, but they might score better on an IQ test, if it had a language category.

If they aren't smarter than anyone else on a practical level, then communication doesn't happen on a practical level for this game. I don't communication never happens on a practical level.

DestinyCall wrote:

It is essentially a super-power and it could work in whatever way Jason wanted to describe it working, if he ever chose to describe how it works in OHOL.

Absolutely not. Jason doesn't have the ability to describe how something works and then the code *necessarily* works exactly the same way. Also, he doesn't have the ability to describe how something works and then players will follow exactly what he says how things will work. They might and sometimes do end doing things another way. Like how players do other things than "trading" or using the iron veins on their family's fault lines. Sure, he might influence some people by what he says. But, it's just not as simple that because one describes something working in a certain way that it will behave that way also.

DestinyCall · 2020-11-06 17:08:11

Jason is the author of the OHOL universe. He is the George Lucas to our Star Wars. We can come up with all kinds of interesting and logical or crazy and fun explanations for how things work, but if he says that property fences are held in place by midichlorians, that's just the way it works. His word is canon.

You are free to make up your own head-canon to explain the weird stuff that happens in this game. But if Jason weighs in on the topic, his interpretation is the one that counts. After all, he is the one who made the game. If he thinks a wizard did it, who are we to disagree?

Always remember ... Sky Jason is real. All hail His glorious visage! Ever smiling. Ever watchful.

NoTruePunk · 2020-11-06 17:14:48

Spoonwood wrote:

NoTruePunk wrote:
White supremacy is intentional, if sometimes covert. I don't think these features are white supremacist, though they are casually racist.
Jason intentionally gave whites the ability to understand what members of other races had communicated, given that the player understands the same real world language as the other player speaks.

Jasion did intentionally take those actions, yes. But that's just an objective observation. Objective reality is meaningless without social interpretation. The messages or meaning behind these features is open to interpretation, and I think you're interpreting it simplistically, though not unfairly.

White supremacy just requires a totally different approach to fight against compared to something like this, spoon.

That makes for a sign that whites are intellectually superior characters. I don't know of anything that seriously contradicts that.

There's a logical leap here that you're making between evidence of a thing and fact. I don't think there's enough evidence to suggest Jason's intent behind the social message. You could rightly say there's connections or evidence of this being inspired or influenced by racism, but it's a little more complicated than "Jason is a white supremacist"

Last edited by NoTruePunk (2020-11-06 17:22:54)

Spoonwood · 2020-11-06 18:00:20

DestinyCall wrote:

Jason is the author of the OHOL universe.

No, he is not. He's the author of the code. The code is the author of the OHOL universe. The code doesn't work how he thinks it does also.

DestinyCall wrote:

He is the George Lucas to our Star Wars. We can come up with all kinds of interesting and logical or crazy and fun explanations for how things work, but if he says that property fences are held in place by midichlorians, that's just the way it works. His word is canon.

No, it doesn't work that way. For example, that whole nonsense about him being "the father of all". Well, he is not in game as his own person. Even what people see in the trailer is not his own person, but a character. Thus, he never has been, is not, and never will be "the father of all". There is also no code for fathers, as every single family tree will tell you (other than that weird one Tarr/fug found). His word is meaningless in that respect, and always has been.

DestinyCall wrote:

You are free to make up your own head-canon to explain the weird stuff that happens in this game. But if Jason weighs in on the topic, his interpretation is the one that counts.

The game is open source, so no. The one that counts is the one that is most plausible and fits the fact the best. He doesn't own the reality of what things mean in the real world. No one does.

DestinyCall wrote:

Always remember ... Sky Jason is real. All hail His glorious visage! Ever smiling. Ever watchful.

That is complete nonsense and always has been.

We can assume the general context of the game, which is fair to grant to Jason to determine. I quote:

jasonrohrer wrote:

It is "in the future," because the thought experiment is about the future.
But this world is obviously not earth.... it is 50,000x bigger than earth, and it has no oceans.

https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewt … 896#p81896

But Mr. Rohrer is a person on Earth in the present day. He has lived for less than 45 years. He will die on Earth, or at least never reach a planet 50,000x bigger than The Earth. He will never exist in that hypothetical future as his own person. Thus, he has not been, is not, and never will be the father of any ohol character. And there is no code at all for fatherhood in the game also so far as I know, other than what Tarr/fug's strange family tree suggested.

Stop perpetuating such a myth Destiny. It invites delusional thinking which doesn't do anyone any good.

DestinyCall · 2020-11-06 18:36:12

You are free to worship Sky Jason in your own way. I will not force you on to the true path. There is no need. All roads lead there, eventually.

Sky Jason doesn't need you to believe in Him. He believes in YOU. And fathers all your children.

You're welcome.

Dodge · 2020-11-06 18:40:09

Spoonwood wrote:

DestinyCall wrote:
Jason is the author of the OHOL universe.
No, he is not. He's the author of the code. The code is the author of the OHOL universe. The code doesn't work how he thinks it does also.

Spoonwood · 2020-11-06 19:18:03

DestinyCall wrote:

You are free to worship Sky Jason in your own way.

I don't worship "Sky Jason". No such being exists. Mr. Rohrer is a man who exists on planet Earth and no more.

DestinyCall wrote:

I will not force you on to the true path. There is no need. All roads lead there, eventually.

You are talking about a delusional path.

DestinyCall wrote:

Sky Jason doesn't need you to believe in Him. He believes in YOU. And fathers all your children.
You're welcome.

He doesn't father a single of my in-game characters children. Never has. He isn't in game. Not the person.

And again, stop with all of that delusional bullshit.

One Hour One Life Forums

#126 2020-11-06 01:53:26

Re: Can This Game Evolve Beyond White Supremacy?

#127 2020-11-06 02:38:55

Re: Can This Game Evolve Beyond White Supremacy?

#128 2020-11-06 04:16:16

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#129 2020-11-06 04:43:50

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#130 2020-11-06 05:46:22

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#131 2020-11-06 05:58:03

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#132 2020-11-06 06:48:33

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#133 2020-11-06 06:59:03

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#134 2020-11-06 07:25:11

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#135 2020-11-06 09:13:40

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#136 2020-11-06 12:50:07

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#137 2020-11-06 12:54:46

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#138 2020-11-06 13:20:38

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#139 2020-11-06 14:00:39

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#140 2020-11-06 14:02:31

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#141 2020-11-06 14:16:39

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#142 2020-11-06 14:31:27

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#143 2020-11-06 15:00:11

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#144 2020-11-06 16:14:32

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#145 2020-11-06 17:08:11

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#146 2020-11-06 17:14:48

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#147 2020-11-06 18:00:20

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#148 2020-11-06 18:36:12

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#149 2020-11-06 18:40:09

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#150 2020-11-06 19:18:03

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