This Is Not Justice

Lizzee · 2020-11-19 18:16:36

Stabbing someone because you don't like the words coming out of their mouth is not an appropriate response. Especially if this person has been an asset to their community. My last life I watched a "leader" stab a player who had spent their whole life gathering wood and smithing tools because they made a homophobic slur. This is not any form of justice. The person made a vulgar one time comment. They were not carrying on or distracting others, until they got stabbed. They were not intentionally wasting resources. They were making an effort to add value to the family/community. Killing this person and claiming it was in the name of justice is a wildly off balanced form of justice. One that really isn't helping the community/family in the long term. Violence begets violence.

I do follow the discord and I see many of you speaking of terrible childhoods. Perhaps you didn't have a lot of tender guidance growing up or maybe you're still growing up. Aunt Liz is here to give you some wisdom. Words do not hold the same power as violence. Words can be crazy powerful and can leave permanent marks on people or society as a whole. Your hands will eventually manifest what your mind spends all it's time on so it's important to have positive thoughts. But nothing in life is more permanent than death.... the two are not even comparable.

I want you to think of the two following scenarios:
The first,
If you have siblings this is an easy concept to grasp. Think of when your sibling has purposely messed with your personal bubble. Like a finger wagging in your face taunting you "I'm not touching you." This infuriates you, providing your sibling with a euphoria, having succeeded in pissing you off/griefing you. With this anger you strike out and hit your sibling, but only as your mother turns to catch you hitting your sibling. She did not see your plight. She just witnesses your violence. The most often reaction is that she will smack you. She will tell you "you should know better" or "you are bigger" but the truth is violence begets violence. The only way to stop violence is to stop teaching other's to use it as a tool.

If your parent/s beat you or hurt you, I'm sorry. I truly hope you can heal and become the victor of your situation. BUT CAN WE PLEASE STOP POINTLESSLY MURDERING PEOPLE IN FRONT OF THE BBs. You're teaching them to over come their problems with violence instead of logic.

The second scenario,
I want you to imagine how the community is affected when you kill someone just because you don't agree with their morality. Does someone's morally corrupt mentality always prevent them from being an asset?
Benjamin Franklin was definitely by modern day's standard a crappy person. This is a man who owned slaves and allowed the sale of human beings at his store. Morally wrong. Could you imagine history without him though? His work, along with others, to harness electricity pioneered our journey into electricity. This a man who profited off of the sale of humans. Was he a shitty person? Yes. Even if he spoke out later in life against slavery it doesn't rescind his action. Ignorant when it came to compassion and empathy but not when it came to science. Was he not an asset in some way regardless of his ignorance?

I will close my long winded rant with this. You shouldn't go around killing everyone you don't agree with. I certainly hope you do not take this approach in real life. Further more as a "leader' in game this is clearly griefy and an abuse of power. If you are going to play judge please also play jury and heavily weigh the person's actions as well as your own.

Can't we all just be kind and live long?

Last edited by Lizzee (2020-11-19 18:23:02)

DestinyCall · 2020-11-19 18:33:18

Good thing it is just a game, so that homophobic good citizen can live again in another village.

I agree that violence is not the answer. But I also can understand not wanting to have hate speech around you while playing an online game. There is not mute button. No ignore feature. In OHOL, murder is one of the simplest ways to say "not in my village" to another person. If people don't agree, they can always heal the bigot.

bpskotch · 2020-11-19 20:01:05

I think this is a good example of good application of the curse system. From what I understand, the curse system is intended to be used for players whom you don’t want to play with. If I was leader in that situation, I may have stealth cursed them, but I agree killing should be reserved for people who are clearly unproductive AND causing grief and/or attempting to kill others without justification.

Last edited by bpskotch (2020-11-19 20:01:55)

Lizzee · 2020-11-19 20:10:33

uh... I pointed out that both people are griefing in this situation. I guess I should have said "two wrongs don't make a right" The analogy I used is offensive because the topic of slavery and homophobia is offensive. They make people feel unsafe. Which is not cool and something I'm not trying to promote by this post. I did however compare the homophobic person to a child (someone lacking maturity), a griefer, an instigator, and someone lacking compassion as well as a person full of ignorance. I never once said that the person was a "good citizen" I only wanted to point out the life the person was living up until that point. They were not making themselves out to be a constant nuisance they just made one, what most people would agree, not cool comment. Just like the leader made one, not cool, rash decision to stab a useful worker. I think I would describe this citizen as being useful not "good". The leader's decision might not have helped the longevity of their town and at your suggestion this was made because there is no mute button or chat filter. My personal reaction would be to curse the bigot in hopes to not have such a hateful person as my child.

So while one guy gets off on being a jerk and working people up with his hate speach... The other guy gets off on killing said jerk because he thinks it makes him altruistic.... and all in the mean while everyone else in the town dies out because these two people think that two wrongs will make it right.

I stand by the sentiments of "can't we all be kind and live long?' I also stand by the idea that we should all try to make educated choices towards the longevity of our towns... isn't that the point of the game?

Ilka · 2020-11-19 20:12:33

Are you writing about a player named Tony Phoenix?
If so, this player got the arrow not because of a foul tongue but because he kidnapped an baby and ran away with it.
This is treated as an attempted murder.
After that, he did not explain his actions, he did not want to leave despite his exile and warning.
All of this was the only possible way of removing a potentially dangerous unit.

If you are writing about someone else, ignore it.

Spoonwood · 2020-11-19 20:13:17

Nice post Lizzee. But I am skeptical that people who say such a thing in game do much.

Last edited by Spoonwood (2020-11-19 20:14:20)

Lizzee · 2020-11-19 20:18:26

Ilka wrote:

Are you writing about a player named Tony Phoenix?
If so, this player got the arrow not because of a foul tongue but because he kidnapped an baby and ran away with it.
This is treated as an attempted murder.
After that, he did not explain his actions, he did not want to leave despite his exile and warning.
All of this was the only possible way of removing a potentially dangerous unit.
If you are writing about someone else, ignore it.

No I'm speaking about an event that happened in the Kraut family today.
I agree that kidnapping children would be a grievance against the town. I think most people are very annoyed by this and I wouldn't have said anything had they chosen to stab a kidnapper.

Lizzee · 2020-11-19 20:30:28

I mean, I'm sorta skeptical as to how valuable I am to a town most lives. I think what provoked me to say something is how often I see the leadership role get abused. If I as a non leader wanted to make a decision to kill someone they would have to convince a few others to take up their cause. As a leader if you want to make an emotionally driven decision to kill someone you can easily do so without the help of others. This gives the one person in the leadership role the ability to be everyone's judge and jury or even the ability to go on a murder spree with little repercussions. I just want my little BBs to grow up in a place where everyone isn't stabing each other. That way they choose a life of kindness and creativity because that's what surrounds them. Not bloody bodies, violence begets more violence.

Last edited by Lizzee (2020-11-19 20:31:02)

Morti · 2020-11-19 20:34:39

Actions > Words > Thoughts

Behave. Be productive. Stay busy.

Morti · 2020-11-19 20:41:32

Lizzee wrote:

If you have siblings this is an easy concept to grasp. Think of when your sibling has purposely messed with your personal bubble. Like a finger wagging in your face taunting you "I'm not touching you." This infuriates you, providing your sibling with a euphoria, having succeeded in pissing you off/griefing you. With this anger you strike out and hit your sibling, but only as your mother turns to catch you hitting your sibling. She did not see your plight. She just witnesses your violence. The most often reaction is that she will smack you. She will tell you "you should know better" or "you are bigger" but the truth is violence begets violence. The only way to stop violence is to stop teaching other's to use it as a tool.
If your parent/s beat you or hurt you, I'm sorry. I truly hope you can heal and become the victor of your situation. BUT CAN WE PLEASE STOP POINTLESSLY MURDERING PEOPLE IN FRONT OF THE BBs. You're teaching them to over come their problems with violence instead of logic.

"An eye for an eye will leave the whole world blind." or, something to that effect.
- Mohandas Ghandi

Lizzee, thank you, so much, for your thoughts, your words and your actions.
I'd love to play with you but life is a little hectic right now.
Hopefully we find ourselves together, in the game, one day, and can find reward in aiding each other, our family and our town.

DestinyCall · 2020-11-20 00:21:16

Lizzee wrote:

uh... I pointed out that both people are griefing in this situation

Do you know what griefing is?

Lizzee wrote:

So while one guy gets off on being a jerk and working people up with his hate speach... The other guy gets off on killing said jerk because he thinks it makes him altruistic.... and all in the mean while everyone else in the town dies out because these two people think that two wrongs will make it right.

Because none of that is "griefing" in my book.

I think people over-use the term to refer to any action they find displeasing or unpleasan. Not every player who acts annoying in some way is a griefer. Not every player who takes an action that indirectly harms the town is acting in bad faith. Nothing in your description of events leads me to believe that either person was intentionally harming the village The bigoted person was a hard worker. The murderous leader was taking out the trash.

I think it is quite reasonable to argue that a peaceful solution would have been better than going straight to violence, but I wasn't there. Perhaps there is more to the story than you or I are aware of. Perhaps the leader saw that guy do other things and the foul language was the last straw. Or perhaps he associated that kind of behavior with bad people, so he felt justified in removing him from the village. Or maybe he lost his cool because he was having a bad day.

I don't think either of them were acting like griefers, because I associate griefing with malicious intent - bad faith players who intentionally ruin the fun of other players. Murder and hate speech are both tools in a griefer's arsenal, but context is very important to determine if a specific action was justified or not.

...

But to get back to your main point about abuse of power, the role of the leader, and if murder is "justice" ... I agree that (ideally) killing should be reserved for only the most extreme offenses.

I remember what it was like back in the old days, when anyone old enough to lift a knife could stab anybody that looked at you funny. I saw somebody get stabbed over a piece of rope that he "stole" from his brother. Once I saw a murder chain wipe out the entire adult population of a village - the first death triggered a vigilante killing and then another villager killed the vigilante .... and another and another .. until only children were left with one old woman holding a bloody knife amid a sea of skulls. And I have seen one griefer slowly kill the whole village, one at a time, without anyone catching on until it was too late. Murder was so rampant that a life without at least one death was a blessing.

I do not wish to return to those dark times. I prefer non-violent means of resolving disputes. I prefer using curses to distance yourself from bad faith players. I prefer giving people the benefit of the doubt and trying to understand, rather than judging them too harshly based on limited information.

But if the nice way isn't working ... there is a point where violence might become the only recourse, especially in a video game where what you can reasonably accomplish in one life is limited by design.

Back when killing was easy and cursing required a team lift, I had a zero tolerance approach to hate speech. It was one of the few things that would provoke me into a murder rage. Now that killing requires cutting through a ton of red tape, my default response to the majority of offenses is a simple curse. Fast, effective, done. You need to really be pulling some shit before I will jump through all those hoops just to kill you, even if I am a leader and technically could do it by myself. Someone else might feel differently and that is fine. Everyone's line is in a different spot.

Keep in mind, leaders are just players, like anyone else. If you disagree with their actions, I recommend talking to them as individuals. You might be able to change someone's mind or at least expand their options the next time they encounter the same problem.

FishRfriendsnotfood · 2020-11-20 00:41:48

It's almost like people are playing a game they downloaded, how they choose to play it. I see no issue here.

Lizzee · 2020-11-20 01:26:53

DestinyCall I won't debate the semantics of the term "griefing" with you. As you know it's not really my point here. I think we agree that killing should be reserved for "the most extreme offenses". Who am I to say that hate speach isn't amongst the most egregious of offenses? You're correct in saying that I can't retell the entire story here. As I was busy in my own work there is no way I could have caught every aspect of these other player's lives. I understand that each leader is only given their leadership role based on their gene score which is ever changing for everyone one. Not everyone who is given power, even if just for an hour, is going to use it wisely.

If I could talk personally to the leader of this scenario I would try to dissuade them from acting so rashly in the future. I would also love to talk to the homophobe and find out why they have hate in their heart. I suppose that's why I turned here to make my plea. We can help to create peace or help create chaos. Both can be contagious. Others see our actions and mimic them. I hope to persuade anyone to consider creating peace, especially when you most feel like creating chaos.

Lizzee · 2020-11-20 01:28:09

FishRfriendsnotfood wrote:

It's almost like people are playing a game they downloaded, how they choose to play it. I see no issue here.

I won't try to persuade you into creating peace as I already know you to be a person who delights in creating chaos for others.

Who hurt you Fish?
Do you need a hug?

NoTruePunk · 2020-11-20 01:31:51

stab the homophobes

FishRfriendsnotfood · 2020-11-20 02:10:22

Lizzee wrote:

FishRfriendsnotfood wrote:
It's almost like people are playing a game they downloaded, how they choose to play it. I see no issue here.

I won't try to persuade you into creating peace as I already know you to be a person who delights in creating chaos for others.
Who hurt you Fish?
Do you need a hug?

Good question, how about this, you find out the answer and I'll sit here patiently waiting for my hug.
Also, I'm fish, nice to meet you, and you are?

Rookwood · 2020-11-20 02:21:37

Can we be kind while people are spouting hate speech?

No.

Life is cheap in this game. It's not a big deal that this person got stabbed for saying something ignorant. They can respawn.

What matters is that we don't allow our community to be overrun with such behavior. Hopefully this person learned their lesson and can be both a productive and respectful player in their subsequent lives.

Spoonwood · 2020-11-20 02:59:23

FishRfriendsnotfood wrote:

Lizzee wrote:
FishRfriendsnotfood wrote:
It's almost like people are playing a game they downloaded, how they choose to play it. I see no issue here.

I won't try to persuade you into creating peace as I already know you to be a person who delights in creating chaos for others.
Who hurt you Fish?
Do you need a hug?
Good question, how about this, you find out the answer and I'll sit here patiently waiting for my hug.
Also, I'm fish, nice to meet you, and you are?

Fish,

Lizzee had a town on s12 after The Come Together Disaster. I think she settled off road deliberately. She played with the rest of us a few times in our towns also if I recall correctly, and I remember playing in her town. Does that provide enough information to answer your question?

FishRfriendsnotfood · 2020-11-20 03:53:34

no, you are not lizzee, so you cannot answer for her. Also I have no idea who she is, nor, would it matter?

Lizzee · 2020-11-20 03:58:33

FishRfriendsnotfood wrote:

Lizzee wrote:
FishRfriendsnotfood wrote:
It's almost like people are playing a game they downloaded, how they choose to play it. I see no issue here.

I won't try to persuade you into creating peace as I already know you to be a person who delights in creating chaos for others.
Who hurt you Fish?
Do you need a hug?
Good question, how about this, you find out the answer and I'll sit here patiently waiting for my hug.
Also, I'm fish, nice to meet you, and you are?

I think I found the solution to who hurt you. Look within. We are often our own worst enemy and stand in the way of our own healing and personal growth. Still want that hug or nah?
As for who am I? No one of any real importance. I don't derive fun or excitement from notoriety.

Coconut Fruit · 2020-11-20 04:09:04

I'm also against violence in general, but a little stab here and there can make this game less boring.
I remember times without kill cooldown... Sometimes I got stabbed without a good reason too, even tho I was always busy helping the town, and I didn't feel like it was a bad thing. It is surely more boring now.

Morti · 2020-11-20 04:17:35

Coconut Fruit wrote:

I'm also against violence in general, but a little stab here and there can make this game less boring.
I remember times without kill cooldown... Sometimes I got stabbed without a good reason too, even tho I was always busy helping the town, and I didn't feel like it was a bad thing. It is surely more boring now.

My goodness, remember how we used to stab and shoot each other in 2018?
Anyone?

What's that, you ate a seed carrot?
That's a stabbin.

You cut down the two trees we were saving for a leaf and tinder?
That's a stabbin.

You were too slow at the forge and only managed to fire two iron into steel with one batch of charcoal?
That's a stabbin.

You killed the last sheep and are clearly new to the game and don't understand what you did wrong?
Well here is a stab, don't do it next time, see ya.

Fuck, 2018 in this game was just crazy when it came to people stabbing one another for just, the dumbest reasons.
Yet losing those lives taught us valuable lessons about having a knife and being able to declare others worthy of a stabbin.

That's just how it was.

Gogo · 2020-11-20 06:22:42

These are modern times - you can't be racist, homophobic or you will be kicked from social life or work IRL. It's a good thing this leader taught that person a lesson. Racist / homophobic days are over, get used to it.

Eve Troll · 2020-11-21 00:32:11

Getting stabbed cured my berry munching

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This Is Not Justice

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