Suggestion: More Talking, Less Walking

DestinyCall · 2021-05-25 17:28:33

I'm not a big fan of the current race restrictions, but since they don't seem to be going anywhere, I was trying to think of a way to make them function better. I had this idea a while ago and I think it would work even better now, with biome banding, homelands, and other changes that have happened since the introduction of family specializations.

In short, I would like to see the two pale-skinned races (ginger and vanilla) merged together into a single tribe that shares the characteristics of both parent races. Similarly, the two dark-skinned races (coffee and chocolate) would merge together to form another tribe. The pale-colored tribe would be able to access the artic and have the universal translator perk, allowing them to communicate freely with other families, both pale and dark. Their homeland would be "to the north" of the central biome band. A family of the pale tribe could be born as either ginger or brunette/blonde character models - either character model would share all of the tribe's abilities.

The darker-colored tribe would have access to both the jungle and the desert. Their homeland would be "to the south" of the central biome band. They could be born as either dark brown or light brown character models and all members would share all of the tribe's abilities. They would not be universal translators, so different dark families would need to overcome the language barrier to communicate with each other.

Families that are part of the dark tribe would be able to harvest latex and sulfur, make glass and rubber, and also have a wide range of food options available to them from the start, as well as access to horses. However, they would need to make contact with a pale tribe family to get oil. Families of the pale tribe would have the late game advantage, due to their access to oil and would be able to coordinate trade relationships more easily due to their ability to communicate freely, but they would need to make contact with the dark tribe to get access to rubber and glass, as well as having a slower start due to limited food choices and no horses.

I would also like to change the way biomes generate so that the artic biome extends to the north endlessly and the desert biome extends to the south endlessly. This would allow the respective tribes to gather biome-specific resources by venturing deeper into these hostile biomes. Currently, if you need more oil, you go east or west and strip out resources that are closer to the spawn location of other villages. With endless artic/desert, it would encourage people to explore to the north of their current village for uncontested resources. Pushing to the east or west would put you into competition with neighboring villages and could potentially lead to conflict and possibly even start a war.

By simply reducing the number of "races" from four types down to two types, it would dramatically change the village relationship dynamic. Villages of the opposing type are potential trade partners and worth taking the time to develop a peaceful relationship with. And the lack of a language barrier would encourage some actual diplomacy and communication instead of the current meta of mutual sharing/stealing of biome-specific resources.

Each family would need to form a trade relationship with at least one village of the opposing type - ebony and ivory, working together - but you don't need to work in harmony with ALL families. And because the server population will be able to support multiple families of both types, you don't even have to take resources from each other peacefully. You could choose to raid other villages, light or dark, to steal their supplies. Other families that are the same type as you will not be able to provide you with special resources, so there is no specific advantage to keeping them alive. In fact, they might even be seen as direct competition, especially if they settle too close to your village and start using up biome-specific resources. This opens up the possibility for both wars and raiding to secure valuable resources. It means that you might want to build a fence around your town or do other things to reduce access to your village from outsiders. It would no longer be necessary to keep all villages alive to keep the server functional, so different outcomes are possible when you encounter a neighboring village.

In general, it would be a good idea to have a peaceful trade relationship with at least one neighboring village, since you need a steady supply of oil/rubber. But you would not need/want to have a lot of neighbors. And if something happens to your current trade partner, you'll need to find a new one or move to a new location. This simplified trade model would make it easier to balance the game and encourage trade while still allowing for the possibility of open warfare.

...

Last I checked, the average player population could reasonably support 4 to 6 families at the same time. We still tend to lose families during night-time due to player population drop off, as well as losing them during the day for a variety of reasons. With the current race layout, you must maintain an active connection with two or three other families to survive, so almost all living villages are mission-critical (except for vanilla fam). This means that it is very easy for one or more families to become too isolated and far away from the rest, either because they are the first to die out or because they are still alive after all their neighbors perished.

By changing to a two-tribe system, it makes the trade relationships much easier to coordinate and maintain over many generations. And instead of needing to keep every family on the server clustered together, we could spread further apart without being totally cut off and doomed to fail. There might still be times when a family finds itself all alone, but it should be less common than it is now and easier to remedy since they only need to find one trade partner, rather than several.

...

I think these changes would dramatically improve the dynamic between different families and encourage more interesting interactions. It would also significantly reduce the amount of mind-numbing travel required to achieve your objectives while significantly increasing the number of possible outcomes when encountering another village.

More talking and less walking. Better game-play and new challenges.

What do you guys think?

Last edited by DestinyCall (2021-05-25 22:59:48)

Spoonwood · 2021-05-26 14:29:34

For the most part they aren't even active with less than 30 players on a server. This morning, eastern time United States, Twisted has been streaming. Less than 30 players on bs2 (and all other servers). There's no need for this sort of system, and it's pointless since there's not enough people for it.

DestinyCall · 2021-05-26 15:06:15

I am making this suggestion with the assumption that Jason is not open to removing race restrictions from OHOL completely and that this game will be able to maintain enough players for these rules to be in effect in the future during peak hours.

If those conditions are true, what do you think of this idea as a compromise?

Morti · 2021-05-27 07:34:47

I'm down for Jason trying whatever new ideas he's inclined to give a go.

It's taken me some time, but I see how this can be viewed as a form of art, and Jason, the artist.
As his work of art, and us, players of it, I think our suggestions should be secondary to his expression of what he sees is happening, or has happened, to the world, and his solutions being in the game for us to find through cooperation.

I'm okay with this being a puzzle game for us to solve, as long as it's Jason's puzzle that comes from his mind, and not our puzzle that he makes for us. I don't want to see the solution before putting the pieces together, although, the solution will always be the same; a Utopia. Even if we never manage to achieve that state, we can always strive to be more; more efficient, happier, challenged, and, interested, in the outcomes that our actions lead us to.

DestinyCall · 2021-05-27 07:42:10

I prefer to see this game as collaborative art. We are all artists, painting on the same canvas. We work together with Jason to create something beautiful. Sometimes that means accepting whatever he gives us and making the best of what we are offered. Sometimes that means suggesting a different path and walking in a new direction together.

I don't think it is necessary to silence our voices out of respect for Jason's singular vision. Perhaps our fresh ideas can inspire something amazing. Or perhaps not.

We'll never know if we don't make the suggestion.

Morti · 2021-05-27 08:22:43

Destiny, I am not saying don't make suggestions. But I do think you have to keep in mind who you are suggesting them to and their view of what it is they are doing. Jason is drawing this game from his entire life's experiences; all the games he's made in the past, all the projects he's done for his family, his parents, his wife, and his children, and all the the things which he has considered as an individual, with a relationship with the rest of the human beings on Earth.

The plants in the game are plants which he has either personally touched in his garden with his own hands, or, plants which have been relevant to history as they relate to subjects of interest to him. The tools in the game are tools which have been valuable to him as a homeowner, things he saw in his father's garage, things he's built in his yard (like the oven/kiln/forge) or things that are, again, relevant to his family's interests.

Everything in this game has a place in Jason's heart (his mind) and for us to just want to impose those things personal to us, onto him, I feel they must be made personal, to him, via our communication to him. And that is where things get tricky. You can't just tell him something is important, and he in turn, feel the same way. You must make him feel that it is relevant, perhaps, to his own past.

The tact people have used for suggesting things be added, for trying to get them to be incorporated into Jason's collection of experienced objects, have been flawed because they do not take that into consideration. If you really want him to feel like something is important enough to be added to the game (or taken away) you have to appeal to the artist who wants to express his experience of the world, not the game designer who wants to make a game for that artist.

Game design is a boring, mathematical thing, the person who wants to share their stories with the world doesn't want to talk about that sort of stuff. They want to tell you their story. The math and the code are just means to manifest the elements of that story onto the monitors of the audience via the hardware we use to communicate with one another. Or, in the case of this work, for him, to share his story with us, and for us, to share our experience of it, with each other.

As much as I care about each of you, as thankful as I am of Jason's parents, his wife and his children, giving him the inspirations to make his games, this game, is his, not ours. Unless what we suggest is important to him; unless it's significant enough to him, I don't want it in this game. No matter how important it is to the rest of us.

But don't let that discourage you from trying to make it important to him. We each have a link to him and that link is important to us. Perhaps something very important to you, can, be transmitted along that link, and it's importance shared with him to the point where he feels it's of enough value to share the stage with all the other objects, ideas and functions, that have made it into the game thus far.

I just don't want him to forget the things that drove him to make this game in the first place.
And I don't want them diluted by our desires.

Dodge · 2021-05-27 09:04:59

Morti wrote:

Game design is boring

You see this with Morti's post, they are dismissive; they don't care, as much, about everyone else as they do themselves.
When they say things like "Game design is boring". what they should be saying is "That is boring to me." "I am not interested." "I dont understand it" "I'm not very good at it" but they don't want to admit that, they want to assume that their opinions are statements of fact that are ubiquitously felt by all people. If they made the comment, "I'm bored of that." they might not feel as justified in their follow up statements "...therefore things need to be changed." because they distinguished themselves from anyone else not them.

Morti · 2021-06-01 20:40:53

I'm glad we've had the opportunity to touch each other, Dodge. But now what?

Do I pay you?
Should I send you a gift, maybe a nice box of chocolates? Some flowers? Maybe a nice dress?
Or do I drop you off at the corner?

--

For the longest time I thought you were a girl, Dodge, because I've only ever known one person with the name Dodge and they too were a girl. The way you have complained, thousands of times, on this forum... I just thought you were a smart, hurt, girl.

Spoon told me in a stream, like a year ago, you weren't. But he laughed, they laughed, we laughed together, at my failure to mentally imagine you properly.

When it comes to these sorts of posts, gender... I mean it is relevant, but it's not, right?
Does it matter, most of the time?

If we are to understand each other, to work together, to work off of one another, and to continue elevating the roof, opening the doors and digging into the basement, we need connections. We need fluent, high speed, communication with minimal loss of signal and maximal bandwidth. That comes in the form of strong ties.

--

Social engineering as a word has it's context, but I would like you to reconsider it as what all people do to each other, with every engagement of minds via communication. A good example would be a sports team, or a union of iron workers putting up sky scrapers together, forming bonds with their coworkers, while they work, and while they aren't working. When they are looking out for each other's families, so that their coworkers have focus and peace of mind on the job, so that clarity of thought and focus on the task of hand, leads to the most efficient performance possible with the minimal loss of lives, resources and time.

A well oiled machine, as it were.

--

I have to wonder, what language will be like during the next, big, well defined age. And by age I mean industrial age, Age of information, renaissance, enlightenment, dark age or bronze age. How will people describe the way the most productive communication systems exchange ever greater, faster, and cleaner, messages, so that objectives are met in a timely fashion?

In short, how will people get shit done, in the future?

--

Dodge, we think about each other. And sometimes we don't want to think about each other, but we do anyway. In those times, the latter, our thoughts probably tend to be less productive, less considerate, and probably less generous, and more geared towards complaining. I don't want to complain about you. I want a person I respect and can count on, for their insight and observations. For their concerns and aspirations. I want to know what drives you, as well as where you want to drive the things around you.

You, like so many others here, have passion that I admire.

We need to get over each other's speed bumps, before we can drive down each other's highways together.
No matter the destination. It's the journey together I am looking forward to.

Gremlynn · 2021-06-01 21:28:17

Seriously who cares about dodges gender?

If we talked more about the game and less about micro analyzing each other we would save each other a lot of reading.

Dodge · 2021-06-02 03:58:40

Morti wrote:

For the longest time I thought you were a girl, Dodge, because I've only ever known one person with the name Dodge and they too were a girl. The way you have complained, thousands of times, on this forum... I just thought you were a smart, hurt, girl.
Spoon told me in a stream, like a year ago, you weren't. But he laughed, they laughed, we laughed together, at my failure to mentally imagine you properly.

Is that supposed to be an insult? If that's the case it's really weak... elementary school degree "haha ur a girl lol"

Morti wrote:

Dodge, we think about each other.

I dont, YOU keep talking about me, so there's definitly something going on with you, maybe take some time to reflect or get some fresh air or go see a specialist i dont know.

LilyFox · 2021-06-02 12:40:35

(Just to come back to the original post…)

I certainly like this suggestion more than the current race system if we absolutely MUST have some form of forced “trade” via race restrictions in this game. The only problem I'd have with it are the unfortunate implications of only the “white” races having direct access to advanced tech thanks to oil but that's because of how this race system was implemented in the first place. And I believe Jason already said that he doesn't care about the politics behind it, so it shouldn't be an issue for him at least.

DestinyCall · 2021-06-02 14:53:42

Yeah, this change doesn't do anything to fix the inherent racism embedded in this game mechanic. Skin color should not determine your value to society.

But I couldn't think of a way to fix that aspect of biome restrictions without completely redesigning the entire system.

For this suggestion, I was aiming for a compromise that would improve the average player's game experience and require minimal effort to implement.

Dodge · 2021-06-02 15:12:51

DestinyCall wrote:

Yeah, this change doesn't do anything to fix the inherent racism embedded in this game mechanic. Skin color should not determine your value to society.
But I couldn't think of a way to fix that aspect of biome restrictions without completely redesigning the entire system.
For this suggestion, I was aiming for a compromise that would improve the average player's game experience and require minimal effort to implement.

I suggested something to Jason that would completly remove the biome restriction while at the same time keep the current way families "trade" with each other and all this only requiring minimal change, he said he wasn't interested because the current system is "good", unless Jason realises that the current system is really bad he's not going to want to change it, the real question is why does he think it's good when it's obviously bad and playing the game for just one life would make this obvious.

LilyFox · 2021-06-02 16:31:41

Dodge wrote:

the real question is why does he think it's good when it's obviously bad and playing the game for just one life would make this obvious.

Well I suspect it's because Jason himself hasn't actually played one, let alone several lives from start to finish in a long while. So everything he sees is gonna be pretty surface-level. As long as it appears like people are shipping resources from one town to another, he's gonna assume the “trade” system is working, regardless of whether they are actually trading with each other or if it's just one person dumping stuff after being asked for it on phex.

Morti · 2021-06-03 18:10:12

LilyFox wrote:

...after being asked for it on phex.

The game that Jason made, is not the game that includes zoom mods, or global chat.
It's in the game now, but he can't go making a game based on every mod that comes along for it, and I don't think he's about to start. That is the impression I have gotten from his response to activities that involve people using other player's creations.

On the one hand, he wants the game open source, free for anyone to play with as they like.

On the other hand, he wants to make something personal.

It is a conflict of interests that he, surely, struggles with and the more the community employs mods like hetuw's to alter players experience of the game he is limiting himself to making, on purpose, the harder it's going to get to keep making things relevant to what he is/was trying to do.

Morse code for instance, hugely important in the development of radio communication, widely used for nearly 100 years, still used in some form to this day, nearly 155 years after it's invention. Next to no use in game, it now serves as a trap for people who want to make radios for fun.

--

Jason, once challenged himself and others, to conceptualize a game where civilization started over and people, had a goal - to recreate the equivalent of the iPhone. Well, could just say Phex is that iPhone, and consider this mission accomplished. Next game.

One Hour One Life Forums

#1 2021-05-25 17:28:33

Suggestion: More Talking, Less Walking

#2 2021-05-26 14:29:34

Re: Suggestion: More Talking, Less Walking

#3 2021-05-26 15:06:15

Re: Suggestion: More Talking, Less Walking

#4 2021-05-27 07:34:47

Re: Suggestion: More Talking, Less Walking

#5 2021-05-27 07:42:10

Re: Suggestion: More Talking, Less Walking

#6 2021-05-27 08:22:43

Re: Suggestion: More Talking, Less Walking

#7 2021-05-27 09:04:59

Re: Suggestion: More Talking, Less Walking

#8 2021-06-01 20:40:53

Re: Suggestion: More Talking, Less Walking

#9 2021-06-01 21:28:17

Re: Suggestion: More Talking, Less Walking

#10 2021-06-02 03:58:40

Re: Suggestion: More Talking, Less Walking

#11 2021-06-02 12:40:35

Re: Suggestion: More Talking, Less Walking

#12 2021-06-02 14:53:42

Re: Suggestion: More Talking, Less Walking

#13 2021-06-02 15:12:51

Re: Suggestion: More Talking, Less Walking

#14 2021-06-02 16:31:41

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#15 2021-06-03 18:10:12

Re: Suggestion: More Talking, Less Walking

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