Transphobic/harassment discrimination from moderator (fug/Tarr)?

Spoonwood · 2021-06-15 20:05:44

Dodge wrote:

Well you're wrong, you struggle to understand basic social dynamics so you dont see it, or as Destiny would say "socially-challenged members".

I've reported this. Your statement like many others of yours is not nice, not welcoming, is mean, involves a personal attack, is offensive, and involves inflammatory language. It's also a lie. That's a whole host of rule violations. On top of that there was no evidence for your claim Dodge. Seriously, if you had an argument you would back up what you say with confidence, instead of speaking like a bully. But then again, that you resort to such instead of backing up your claims suggests that your claim was utterly hollow in the first place, since it's more convincing, rational, and simple to back up a claim with a quotation or reasoning or a combination of the two than acting like a bully.

selalov734 · 2021-06-15 20:09:01

Spoonwood i replied to you on the first page (maybe you didn't see it)
Its good that you reported dodge, but do not take anything he says serious.
He will lie and try to manipulate other people to harm the people he doesn't like (you and tarr)

Dodge · 2021-06-15 20:13:19

Spoonwood wrote:

I've reported this. Your statement like many others of yours is not nice, not welcoming, is mean, involves a personal attack, is offensive, and involves inflammatory language. It's also a lie. That's a whole host of rule violations. On top of that there was no evidence for your claim Dodge. Seriously, if you had an argument you would back up what you say with confidence, instead of speaking like a bully. But then again, that you resort to such instead of backing up your claims suggests that your claim was utterly hollow in the first place, since it's more convincing, rational, and simple to back up a claim with a quotation or reasoning or a combination of the two than acting like a bully.

It's not an insult it's a technically accurate and socially accepted term, like saying little people instead of midget wich is offensive, also arguing with you is pointless due to the social issue mentionned.

I didn't expect any other reaction from your part sadly...at least i tried.

selalov734 wrote:

Dodge tries to make look tarr as bad as possible and is not interested in portraying the situation correct.

Tarr admited himself he was wrong saying that, so yeah... are you from discord?

DestinyCall · 2021-06-16 00:35:58

Dodge wrote:

Tarr/fug has been warned by Jason, maybe he will get some "time off" to think about what he did, probably not though knowing Jason...
Really weird on your part Destiny that your are defending this behaviour, you never know what type of person you're talking to with the anonymity but you can slowly paint a picture of who they are.
But anyway, case closed.

I am not defending or supporting this kind of behavior. I find rude and discriminatory speech quite distasteful. If anything, I am defending the mod. As you say, you can slowly get a picture for the kind of person someone is by what they post. Tarr has been posting on here for a long time, so it is easy to look back on his past posts to see how he thinks and acts. Villanelle hasn't posted nearly as much, but even in a short period of time, you can get a good feeling for the kind of person they are and how they treat other people.

If I felt like this incident was representative of a pattern of bad behavior from the moderator, I would have a very different take on the situation. But I don't get the impression that Tarr is a bad mod or a bad person. Rather, I think he is a good mod who had a bad day and said some things he really shouldn't have said. Looking back, I am sure he wishes he had handled the situation differently. Hopefully, he will learn from what happened and be a better mod because of it.

As a moderator, you need to set an example, stay impartial, and have a whole buttload of patience to deal with all the crap people are going to throw your way. It is a hard job. You have a lot of power and authority, sure ... but you also have to manage a bunch of unruly man-children without losing your cool and telling them what your really feel about all their petty drama. Needless to say, mods are not perfect. They screw-up sometimes. They get angry and say stupid shit. They make snap-judgements and ban people for flimsy reasons. It happens.

I don't think mods need to be completely emotionless robot people or perfect saints that do no wrong. They just need to be decent people who can tell right from wrong and do their best to not let their personal feelings cloud their judgment.

It is a position of trust. We trust them to keep the peace and they trust us keep them busy trying.

Gremlynn · 2021-06-16 01:00:20

Honestly destiny you'd be a pretty good forum moderator. You're on here enough, you're level headed, and know when to make and take a joke. Might be worth an email to j-ball.

Joriom · 2021-06-16 01:05:06

Interesting...

DestinyCall · 2021-06-16 01:05:58

Oh dear god no.

If I was a mod, I'd have to act like a responsible grown-up instead of just laughing at all the silly drama. That would suck all the fun out of stalking you guys. No way!

Gremlynn · 2021-06-16 01:12:10

I hear you there. Im in the same frame of mind. At least on here its not as wild as the discord. You couldnt pay me to mod there.

Dodge · 2021-06-16 04:15:15

DestinyCall wrote:

I am not defending or supporting this kind of behavior. If anything, I am defending the mod.

I guess technically you are correct, but when you are so adamantly defending someone arent you in a way supporting their behavior?

When i asked if he should get repercussions for his actions you basically said "it's normal around here" then that i probably did the same, you can check my logs i never said something to this degree.

You never gave your personnal answer instead you're referring to general rules and more vague broader aspects.

And when i answered your post where you where doubting the meaning of what Tarr was saying you basically evaded by going on a rant about moderation.

You like to hide behind technicallities instead of giving your actual honest answer.

Gremlynn · 2021-06-16 04:24:06

I think destiny was stating more that if you step on toes you get kicked. Sure it could be percieved as a "beware of big brother" deal. But thats less about supporting said big brother and more about concerns of what big brother might do to you. In a way they were trying to look out for you, in their own way. Sure it might be overly cautious and it might take standing up to people to promote real change. Sure being cautious might enable further misbehavior by those in power, and by promoting caution it could be percieved as enabling or defending that behavior in a transitive sense. Though i dont think that was the heart of their intentions. I dont think either of you are wrong in your point of view but because of where you stand and move towards this issue you bump into each other. Just because you bump into each other doesnt necessarily mean you're blocking each other from where you're going. Its ok to disagree about where we stand and where we're going. But micro analyzing and estimating each others intentions really only makes us seem like fools and sets us up to offend each other. With a little distance things are relatively clear. Just know that you believe what you believe and try to understand each other to the best that you can.

Last edited by Gremlynn (2021-06-16 04:24:28)

DestinyCall · 2021-06-20 08:52:07

Dodge wrote:

You never gave your personnal answer instead you're referring to general rules and more vague broader aspects.

Dodge, I just wanted to thank you for inspiring me to actually get on Discord for once and read what happened for myself. I rarely go on there, but I've been speaking in generalities about this issue because I don't think it is fair to judge without context. Context is key. I can't really provide my own personal answer unless I have a better picture of what actually happened, not just second-hand reports and carefully edited screen-grabs.

Anyways, I've been deeply entertained by wading through pages and pages of juicy Discord drama. Jesus, what a ride.

...

I was going to make a whole big post detailing my thoughts on everything I read, but then I realized that that would just be feeding the troll who started all this nonsense. Instead, I will simply suggest that if anyone is curious about what happened, they should go back and read for themselves. It is better than trusting someone else's interpretation of events and you might learn something.

Here's a link that should take you pretty close to Villanelle's first post. Her name has changed, but I bet you can work out who she is.

https://discordapp.com/channels/3282153 … 4766519336

I also wanted to give a brief shout-out to Lizzee, bpskotch, and UnoriginalArtist. You guys are amazing. There are some really kind people on Discord and I'm glad to have had to the opportunity to read your words. All too often, we give attention to those who deserve it the least. Real heroes go unrecognized. Thank you for being you.
...

But honestly, the Villanelle stuff was just the appetizer and not the main event. Jason showed up on Discord, which is apparently a rare thing based on everyone's reaction, not just once, but multiple times due to the combination of DDOS attacks and the moderation hijinks. Jason talked about the current state of the game and his plans for the future. Unfortunately, it was pretty much what I had already expected and just confirmed my worst fears. However, I'm the kind of person who would rather be told the bitter truth than sold a sweet lie. Since I'm so rarely on Discord, it was extremely fortuitous that I picked just the right moment to stalk the chat logs.

Here's a link to that part of the chat, if you want to read it: https://discord.com/channels/3282153002 … 7522212875

Some time after that, a lot of the long-time players started talking about the good old days. It was nice to remember the trials and challenges we faced back before all the nonsense that was added in 2018/19. Hard to believe it has been so long since that game was in a decent state. And of course, even then it had a lot problems. I think the difference was hope. Back then, I could see this game's potential and every update was exciting, because it might bring something new and amazing to the game, like airplanes or stackable carrots. Once you stop expecting more from this game, it starts to feel a lot smaller and emptier.

I think I will go play a life as a traveling burrito saleswoman. That sounds like it might be fun. Who doesn't love a tasty burrito? I want to make a few more good stories and enjoy the low pop conditions to intentionally pick bananas and pet seals to my hearts content. Perhaps I will learn how to make tattoos. Or fish for shrimp. There's a lot of useless things I've never done. I think it's high-time I fixed that.

....

And in closing, let me just share with you my favorite Villanellism:

"Jason Rorher is Jordan Peterson of gaming
i have no idea what's wrong with trying meth
i thought most teenagers are doing it at least once
I haven't done that due to my health but
Coca Cola used to have cocaine in it and was sold in pharmacies and people were okay with that"

For context, she is defending Jason's meth habit. You know the one.

Dodge · 2021-06-20 10:47:48

DestinyCall wrote:

There's a lot of useless things I've never done. I think it's high-time I fixed that.

Yes enjoy the last little bits of the game you haven't explored yet before maybe eventually leaving it, Jason pretty much confirmed that he wanted to wrap it up so he's probably gonna add robots and that rail thing in the trailer so it's "done" and call it the "greatest game ever made".

DestinyCall wrote:

For context, she is defending Jason's meth habit. You know the one.

So you still didn't give your personnal answer... do you think Tarr should have been banned for what he said or at least get some consequences for his actions?

The whole post is about what Tarr said the post isn't about what Villanelle said that's another one.

Also Tarr claims i'm defending Villanelle but i never did, i only asked questions about what happenned and then checked discord and saw Tarr's messages.

The mods never posted the exact messages that led to Villanelle being banned (as far as i know) so we will never know, i think the main reason was "argument baiting" which i'm pretty sure is not even a rule and is so unclear that you could pretty much ban everyone that just states an opinion that you disagree with an call it "baiting".

Since you dont want to spill the beans yourself i'm gonna make an educated guess and say that you dont think Tarr should have faced any consequences for his actions.

And it's pretty much what happenned, just a light slap on the wrist and not much more, i'm guessing that if anyone else than a moderator would have said the same they would have at least get a temporary ban if not more.

I personnally dont think a permanent ban would have been deserved but definitly a temporary one, like 3-4 months, some time to reflect on your actions, what led to your wrong doings and how to do better next time.

Last edited by Dodge (2021-06-20 11:15:28)

Léonard · 2021-06-20 15:13:56

DestinyCall wrote:

Here's a link to that part of the chat, if you want to read it

Oh boy..
This reminds me of the RedComb thing all over again..
Some people just never change I guess.

And here's to my little nostalgia trip reading my old posts.

Léonard wrote:

You have yet to refute my main idea on civilization in OHOL with anything more than "I have 15 years of game designing experience and you don't".
[...]
You hide behind a wall, you ignore the people who oppose you by assuming things about them like they just dislike you or that they're entitled or whatever you come up with this time around.
But I'm still there, my arguments unaddressed. You're still wrong.

I guess this game has been a wonderful life lesson about disappointments.

Here's my main theme for this game.

Chivalryisfish · 2021-06-20 15:25:38

Dodge, get a hobby.

DestinyCall · 2021-06-20 15:30:04

I'm sorry. I forgot that you are only interested in punishing Tarr. My bad.

No, I do not think that Tarr deserves to banned for like 3-4 months over a drunken rant. He has already admitted responsibility and apologized for his behavior. He has been dressed down for not managing the situation as a whole and his own response to it better. He has had time to reflect on what he did wrong and how he can do better next time. Justice has been served.

If you are going to be mad at anyone over this incident, I'd be annoyed at Jason for neglecting his Discord for so long and for failing to provide proper leadership and support to his hard-working moderators. I can't help thinking that if Jason gave his mods clear rules of conduct for themselves/others, and if he trusted them enough to back-up their decisions, instead of always siding with the loudest complainers, this would never have happened. Instead, the moderators have to work with one hand tied behind their back and a list of intentionally ambiguous and self-contradictory "rules" that make it hard for them to act until things have already spiraled out of control for days.

I also feel compelled to mention that what you failed to mention when you posted Tarr's comments with zero context is that he was not talking to Villanelle at the time those posts were made. He was not directing hate toward her for her LGBT status or harrassing her into committing suicide. After four days of pure drama, argument baiting, and general shit-stirring, Villanelle had finally done enough to be banned for good. So she was already gone and not expected to return to the Discord. Those distasteful posts were made while Tarr chatted with Methman after the fact, and vented his frustration over trolls in general and one troll in particular. Jason had just fixed the servers after one of the first DDOS attacks and he must not have had a chance to process Villanelle's return request yet, because she was still playing his game. Another Discord user mentioned that the banned one was whining in PHEX and Tarr made the comment "Imagine if trolls made sense", before launching into a mocking imitation of troll behavior. I bet you can guess who's behavior he was making fun of, although no names were used. It was not a nice thing to do. And he got called out by others at the time for taking it too far. Especially since his comments, without any context, come across as generally hateful and unwelcoming toward LGBT people.

Here's a link to the relevant section of the chat, if anyone wants to go there and read the whole conversation for themselves. Although I recommend you start from the beginning, when Villanelle joined a few days earlier, so you get the full story.

https://discordapp.com/channels/3282153 … 0566614047

Now I think we should probably take Lizzee's wise advice and move on from this discussion. It is in the past with a lot of other horrible things. Best to leave it there.

Dodge · 2021-06-20 15:31:06

Chivalryisfish wrote:

Dodge, get a hobby.

I have more hobbies and interests in life than you without a doubt, go back to discord

Chivalryisfish · 2021-06-20 15:37:40

*claps* congratulations you win! You win the grand prize of hopefully reaching a point. Replied within 7 minutes. So many hobbies, such importance.

DestinyCall · 2021-06-20 15:42:48

This shit is one of his hobbies.

I can't judge. Stalking these forums is clearly one of mine.

Chivalryisfish · 2021-06-20 15:53:35

I suppose you're right Destiny. I worry about someone who gets stressed at a situation that they were never involved in, the situation has been over for days, and not even remotely a victim of the circumstances.
Just seems confrontational and sensationalized for no known conclusion.

Last edited by Chivalryisfish (2021-06-20 15:54:14)

Dodge · 2021-06-20 16:00:15

DestinyCall wrote:

I'm sorry. I forgot that you are only interested in punishing Tarr. My bad.

Sure if you say so...definitly not about someone from the moderation team committing a bannable offence and getting away with it, you're only interested in finding everything to excuse his behaviour

DestinyCall wrote:

No, I do not think that Tarr deserves to banned for like 3-4 months over a drunken rant.

Being drunk only explains why he said that, it doesn't excuse it.

"in vino veritas" getting to know Tarr a little bit better...

If someone pissed me off and i drank a little too much does it mean i wouldn't get banned for saying that? Because i could bet that if i or anyone else not being a mod would have said the same exact thing even in a similar context it would definitly have been a ban, maybe not permanent but a ban for sure.

DestinyCall wrote:

Justice has been served.

I guess it's true what they say justice is fair but not for everyone.

DestinyCall wrote:

If you are going to be mad at anyone over this incident

Im not mad just slightly disapointed in Jason's decision but that seems to be a recurring theme for this game shared by many others.

DestinyCall wrote:

I also feel compelled to mention that what you failed to mention when you posted Tarr's comments with zero context is that he was not talking to Villanelle at the time those posts were made...etc

Did the context of talking "about" instead of "to" mattered in that instance?

No, the words he used where discriminatory and there was allusion to committing suicide, that's enough for a ban in my book and probably in the official rules too...

DestinyCall wrote:

Now I think we should probably take Lizzee's wise advice and move on from this discussion. It is in the past with a lot of other horrible things. Best to leave it there.

It's too easy to tell your argument and side of the story then say "we should stop talking about it, it's in the past"

If i reply then i'm the one not able to move past on and if i dont then you just told your little story without even giving me the opportunity to respond to it.

If you really wanted this discussion to be done you shouldn't have answered, but then you couldn't have told your version... which you did.

Dodge · 2021-06-20 16:04:40

DestinyCall wrote:

This shit is one of his hobbies.

Yeah it's mildly entertaining.

Chivalryisfish wrote:

I worry about someone who gets stressed at a situation that they were never involved in.

You think i'm stressed over this? That's cute

Maybe you picture yourself in that situation and that causes you stress, just a wild guess

Chivalryisfish · 2021-06-20 16:19:51

Dodge wrote:

DestinyCall wrote:
This shit is one of his hobbies.
Yeah it's mildly entertaining.
Chivalryisfish wrote:
I worry about someone who gets stressed at a situation that they were never involved in.
You think i'm stressed over this? That's cute
Maybe you picture yourself in that situation and that causes you stress, just a wild guess

Yes, otherwise, why.do.you.care? What is your goal with this irrelevance?

Alice · 2021-06-20 16:31:08

Dodge wrote:

It's too easy to tell your argument and side of the story then say "we should stop talking about it, it's in the past"
If i reply then i'm the one not able to move past on and if i dont then you just told your little story without even giving me the opportunity to respond to it.
If you really wanted this discussion to be done you shouldn't have answered, but then you couldn't have told your version... which you did.

Yes, that's the classic "double bind". Cursed if you do, cursed if you don't.

Dodge · 2021-06-20 16:34:16

Chivalryisfish wrote:

Dodge wrote:
DestinyCall wrote:
This shit is one of his hobbies.
Yeah it's mildly entertaining.
Chivalryisfish wrote:
I worry about someone who gets stressed at a situation that they were never involved in.
You think i'm stressed over this? That's cute
Maybe you picture yourself in that situation and that causes you stress, just a wild guess

Yes, otherwise, why.do.you.care? What is your goal with this irrelevance?

Why do i care? Why did you care answering to that post?

Like i said contributing to the forum is mildly entertaining, thinking about all the great possibilities for this game and all the different ideas and concepts that's a lot more interesting, but that's a thing from the past... i highly doubt this game will ever be what Jason truly wanted it to be, since he wants to work a couple more months on it then wrap it up, definitly not possible in that time frame especially with the past record of this game's development cycle, but who knows i could be wrong.

Why do you think it's irrelevant? irrelevant to what?

To the forum?

Then it's definitly not irrelevant, Tarr aka fug is a member here and even a moderator.

Alice · 2021-06-20 16:38:00

Dodge wrote:

i highly doubt this game will ever be what Jason truly wanted it to be, since he wants to work a couple more months on it then wrap it up, definitly not possible in that time frame especially with the past record of this game's development cycle, but who knows i could be wrong.

Jason has betrayed his art. He betrayed his idea in order to appeal to the most vocal haters of how the game was.

It was living art he was creating but in the end he succumbed into pleasing the most vocal crowd and it's now just another game that won't survive long on its own. Still has some charm though.

Last edited by Alice (2021-06-20 16:40:32)

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