Bring back multicultural families!!!

Laggy · 2021-06-26 22:18:48

Instead of removing racial restrictions, can we just have multicultural families?
Or get rid of homesickness. The game was better without all the families being separated. Banding also is boring. Special biomes used to be rare, now they are very common. Additionally the Legacy Chain update helps to kill off families. Basically forces players into playing for one family.

Can we please get some content? I mean even recycled content is something.

Please remove banding, legacy chain, and have four multicultural families without homesickness.

Last edited by Laggy (2021-06-26 22:30:35)

Gremlynn · 2021-06-26 22:32:12

Families living together like that was how people coped with race restrictions when they were first added. It resulted in one big town with every family living in it. As you can imagine this removed a ton of diversity because you would live in the same town every time you logged in. Jason didnt like this and people complained so he added homeland mechanics.

I tend to agree with this. Diversity of towns is vital to the total experience of this game. Removing race restrictions and letting families live autonomously is a better option. All we have gotten is a lot of bandaids layered on top of each other trying to make race restrictions work, when the previous system worked fine.

Laskara · 2021-06-27 07:49:57

Personally I actually think the special biomes mechanic is fine, I'm noticing stuff like that northerly families are completely lacking colours on their clothes and structures while southern families have tons, and that's neat and expected as people are more concerned with getting things like rubber north than colorful clothes and paint. The banding and the like actually creates diversity. I have less SIDS waves thanks to the legacy chain update, it used to be so bad with people trying to return to their last town that I'd genuinely completely ignore my babies unless they got up and followed me. We might need some content updates and corrections here, but just taking them away again isn't really going to improve our play experience.

LeAnn · 2021-06-27 09:55:08

Racial restrictions, multicultural families can be brought back by editing server config, which we can do, but I see people disagree on that one. What I see agreement on is maybe, it seems, leave homelands as is but remove biome restrictions, am I correct?

Gremlynn · 2021-06-27 19:00:34

Honestly removing homeland as well as race restrictions would be good too. It would invite the opportunity for multifamily towns to exist while making it more choice based rather than avoiding mechanics that make no sense. People used to get lost and end up raising kids in another fam all the time. It was cute and sweet.

If you can I highly suggest you revert the map to a version before banding was added. Diverse terrain made for a way more interesting experience when building a town or finding a place to settle.

Oh and it might be a good idea to remove the language barrier, that mechanic has never aided the overall experience of this game and really only promoted xenophobia and confusion.

Last edited by Gremlynn (2021-06-27 19:01:40)

JonySky · 2021-06-28 08:03:02

Gremlynn wrote:

Oh and it might be a good idea to remove the language barrier, that mechanic has never aided the overall experience of this game and really only promoted xenophobia and confusion.

Language ..., if implemented correctly, can be a great mechanic
The language must be learned in one lifetime, (or your children can learn the language if they live in another city with another family),
If we had players from our family learning the language of other families, we could have translators and start promoting the professions
This is another mechanic implemented in a "sloppy" way.
currently translations are done with a sheet of paper and a rubber ... or with a radio ... this is illogical and absurd
The mechanics of homeland has also completely destroyed languages

Dodge · 2021-06-28 08:36:51

JonySky wrote:

Language ..., if implemented correctly, can be a great mechanic
The language must be learned in one lifetime, (or your children can learn the language if they live in another city with another family),
If we had players from our family learning the language of other families, we could have translators and start promoting the professions
This is another mechanic implemented in a "sloppy" way.
currently translations are done with a sheet of paper and a rubber ... or with a radio ... this is illogical and absurd
The mechanics of homeland has also completely destroyed languages

+1 Language is a mechanic that has a lot of potential but the way it's implemented right now, used to serve race/biome restriction is really bad, you used to be able to learn a language, now you either have to use cheesy way to communicate or use "the whites", completely absurd and uninteresting.

It's only this way because the dev wants to make race/biome restriction a thing, and he thinks it's an interesting way to solve the issue of "trade", this plus the magical homeland barrier.

If it was done right language and biomes would be part of a natural way to have different homelands.

~~But dev prefers to force everything because he cant find a way to make it work organically and he's too good to implement suggestions from the community~~

LeAnn · 2021-06-28 16:04:56

you used to be able to learn a language

The setting for language acquisition is still there. I wonder will it work correctly if we just enable it...

DestinyCall · 2021-06-28 18:05:52

The problem is that language acquisition is based on hearing people speak a foreign language during childhood and it takes a long time. People used to learn how to understand each other by living together. If someone migrated to a new town, the first generation would not know any of the language, but their children would gain some fluency. Their grandkids would know even more. Eventually, they would be able to understand and speak to each other with only a slight "accent". It would take multiple generations of two families living and raising kids together, but eventually they would learn how to speak to each other and be understood.

It is actually a pretty cool way of handling language acquisition in a multi-generational game about parenting and civilization-building. If we still lived together.

But with homelands, people don't have kids in foreign villages anymore. We don't get exposure to other languages as children, because we almost always interact with other villages as adults and only for a limited time. Plus, you do not travel to another village in order to chat with them. Why bother? No one will understand what you are even saying. So if you are a lone foreigner in a strange village, there is little point in even trying to speak. If you are smart, you might bring a basket with paper, pencil and rubber ball. But that level of effort is rarely seen.

Multigenerational language acquisition doesn't make sense in the current game-state. Technically, you COULD intentionally travel to a neighboring village to talk to act as a language tutor. Hang out in the nursery and talk to the air so the young kids would gain exposure to your language. Then keep doing that, over and over for generations. It would probably take you four or five hours. Maybe longer. But could eventually get all three non-translator races able to talk to each other. But then those families would die out in a day or so and you would need to start fresh with the NEW black/brown/ginger family.

It is also technically possible to learn how to speak another language in-game by literally teaching or being taught basic words. Once you know enough words, you can even start to guess at the words you do not know yet, which is pretty cool. But since every family has a unique language and our families die out easily and often, it is a huge waste of time to learn the Sinclair family language by hand. The Sinclair family will be gone before you have a chance to use your knowledge for anything practical.

In my opinion, languages was one of the coolest updates, but the way it is currently implemented really doesn't fit into the game anymore. It is hurting, rather than helping.

Gremlynn · 2021-06-28 19:33:46

Language is an interesting concept. But in reality it shouldnt take 100 years for a group of people to learn a language. Especially if they were raised by a majority of people who speak that language. Maybe 5 or 10 years would be a little more realistic. In reality children should learn it almost instantly if surrounded by it in their formative years. The issue i see with language is if you run into a village shouting your foreign language trying to teach people, someone will more likely stab you. Especially since that mechanic is not explained well and cannot be explained by the foreign party trying to preform it. Im not sure its possible to implement it well. Ive been killed more times because people couldnt understand me and i couldnt explain myself more times than i can count. I have never had an interesting or rewarding experience surrounding this mechanic. The old system vs the new system didnt change this. Our goal is to communicate, so let us communicate. Bad mechanics that try to make that harder while limiting the total possibility of interactions arnt good. Even if they're an interesting concept.

Last edited by Gremlynn (2021-06-28 19:35:57)

DestinyCall · 2021-06-28 22:22:04

My best memories of the languages are all from when it was first introduced, because people were actively interested in engaging with other people and trying to figure out how it worked. Peaceful players would spend twenty or thirty minutes of their one hour life trying to communicate with a stranger and learn his language. It was fun and interesting. But not sustainable. It took way too long. The ability to aquire language knowledge over several generations was added as a "fix". That fix was later broken by the homeland update and never re-addressed.

Unfortunately, due to the way that language was implemented, there are some serious problems. The gingers don't actually speak another language - it is a chat filter that replaces syllables. So I say "Carrot" and you see "Bopog". If you say "Carrot", I see "Thadar". But if I say your word for carrot, the chat filter will change what I say to "carrot". So far, so good. But since each pair of families has a unique filter for interactions between those families, if we go visit the black family together, they don't see Bopog or Thadar when we say carrot. Instead, they see "Riperd" when I say carrot and "chollek" when you say it.

This means that if I am in the brown family, even if I take time to learn some words from the ginger family's language by observation, I cannot teach the black family how to communicate with them. Because they don't use the same code set, so the ginger "language" will look completely different to other families.

Ideally, there would only be a limited number of languages and they would display consistently to outsiders - so the word for carrot in the ginger language would always be the same word, whether the listener was black or brown. And it would stay the same, even if that particular ginger family died out. Then you could actually learn to speak "ginger" to communicate in game with gingers and directly teach your kids how to speak with your neighbors.

Gremlynn · 2021-06-28 22:48:36

My first experience with language was during the come together update that coincided with the warsword update. As you can imagine it was impossible to cohabitate enough to learn a language. It encouraged mistrust and often the other family would eventually slaughter the other. It didnt matter how hard you worked or how peaceful you were. Being different made people feel uneasy. Not being able to communicate properly made us a liability. So it always ended in blood. In my experience this hasnt changed. Its impossible to get people to take you seriously with a piece of paper. You end up chasing around townsfolk for years trying to get one thing. Eventually someone gets annoyed and they kill you. You ride in on a horse, theyll think you stole it from them and you cant even explain yourself. Cant tell people you're peaceful or anything. This in combination with race restrictions and homeland makes everything beyond frustrating. I dont see its function beyond being a roadblock. A roadblock that more often than not end it death.

Last edited by Gremlynn (2021-06-28 22:50:27)

DestinyCall · 2021-06-28 23:29:05

Yes, language was added in the misleadingly-named "coming together" update, along side war swords and feral eves.

I was lucky to experience some lives where people were actually willing to play language teacher, instead of just stabbing the stranger with a sword. Your experience of being attacked on-sight was fairly common, but not universal. In one village, we used paper and pencil to teach someone how to say many basic words before everyone involved died of old age together. It was beautiful and useless, like many of the best parts of OHOL.

I like to think that the positive experiences would have been more common if Jason had chosen to introduce foreign languages WITHOUT also arming everyone with murder swords. But we will never know.

Spoonwood · 2021-06-28 23:59:17

JonySky wrote:

Gremlynn wrote:
Oh and it might be a good idea to remove the language barrier, that mechanic has never aided the overall experience of this game and really only promoted xenophobia and confusion.
Language ..., if implemented correctly, can be a great mechanic
The language must be learned in one lifetime, (or your children can learn the language if they live in another city with another family),
If we had players from our family learning the language of other families, we could have translators and start promoting the professions
This is another mechanic implemented in a "sloppy" way.
currently translations are done with a sheet of paper and a rubber ... or with a radio ... this is illogical and absurd
The mechanics of homeland has also completely destroyed languages

If you consider the game's sense of time, one foreigner can't learn to speak the language in 20 or 30 years. One might maintain that language learning is often slow for people, that one can't become a master at a foreign language (which seems quite strange after reading one person whose native language was Polish writing in or getting translated to English well before the internet existed who was rather perspicuous in everything I read by him, but I remember hearing that), but even with that, that people would routinely not be able to learn the language for so long makes no sense. It's just a stupid handicap and isn't realistic. I think I would agree with anyone that would assert that it mostly ends up as a mechanic covering up lack of content flaws with the game instead of deepening it. Distinct languages have appeal at first glance, but gameplay wise they aren't appealing, and get worse the deeper one looks/thinks about them.

Spoonwood · 2021-06-29 00:10:29

DestinyCall wrote:

So if you are a lone foreigner in a strange village, there is little point in even trying to speak. If you are smart, you might bring a basket with paper, pencil and rubber ball.

My experience was that using Hetuw chat was easily better than using a paper and rubber ball to communicate. It ended up that I preferred playing as white and begging for resources or bringing something like milkweed or iron that they might already enough of. The language barrier was not fun.

I guess someone might say that "hey... but now there's an in-game reason for the rubber ball!" But, so what that it was just a toy before? It was fun and still is fun as a toy, and it didn't need more. And also motivating all content in the game is not necessarily a good idea, as I think anyone thinking about the, I assume still not made in this arc or the previous or sooo rarely made and used for translation almost never, radio telegraph would realize.

Last edited by Spoonwood (2021-06-29 00:13:08)

Spoonwood · 2021-06-29 00:16:37

Gremlynn wrote:

Ive been killed more times because people couldnt understand me and i couldnt explain myself more times than i can count.

I would sometimes have people try to kill me, heck even happened in Mushroom Gorge where I was the Eve in a previous life, but I think everytime I ran as soon as I heard or saw the victim emote they didn't kill me. I have to wonder if you would try to run away for a bit and then come back if you still would get killed, as I wasn't always threatened by the same people even.

DestinyCall · 2021-06-29 02:24:48

I didn't mention HETUW chat because it isn't part of the base game.

Unfortunately, race restriction mean that even making a rubber ball is harder than it should be.

Gremlynn · 2021-06-29 02:31:30

Yea i was going to mention phex. Its existence basically makes the language mechanic useless. Chat isnt character fixed and you can talk to every user that uses the mod at once. It not only makes language obsolete but it makes in game chat obsolete. Personally i find it to be the worst edition to the game and ruins a lot of the personality and community the game once had.

Spoonwood · 2021-06-29 04:31:08

DestinyCall wrote:

I didn't mention HETUW chat because it isn't part of the base game.
Unfortunately, race restriction mean that even making a rubber ball is harder than it should be.

Yeah, it's pretty bad. I mean you can use a bunch of paper I suppose without having a rubber ball if no rubber balls were to exist on the server. But, making paper is a time consuming process when there isn't that sort of time to obtain the resources and take care of other things in towns from what I recall, even with population levels not even half full on bs2 (would probably be worse with more confused players on the server on an arc restart). There's also the issue that if you were to prepare paper for yourself or someone else, it seems predictable, if not also likely or highly likely that if you don't use it, well someone else will put some sort of useless or seriously questionable note on it. People trying to feel important or be entertaining by regaling their tales on paper or to be remembered. Or to swear. Or to make jokes. Or to be edgy/offensive.

Like I remember seeing paper when I had played for a few weeks as an Eve and I told me kids "I hate these notes. Why can't they put something useful on here?" And it's just naive to expect that paper would get maintained as unused, and unlike real paper, one can't even add a small additional note in some margin of paper to use it... the whole dang thing has to get erased to get used, requiring a rubber ball, which was made how the first time? Probably not by players communicating with each other, but rather by gifting or maybe stealing.

The whys where put here: http://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=8377 Making rubber the first time doesn't encourage trade. It encourages gifting relying on people learning about the game's outside of it's context, meaning it's not a standalone sort of thing or stealing which doesn't encourage inter-family interaction. There's no bridging of language barriers between families. A bridge can get traversed multiple times, which doesn't work without permanent player identities. It's also not an interpersonal challenge, because there's less *between* people without mutual understanding. More like a challenge in going around default game mechanics, at least anyone for trying to take on smart risks.

And really encouraging players to go around default game mechanics has issues for a multiplayer game. For a single player game mods singles health with no issues that I can think of. But for a multiplayer game mods result in a lack of cohesiveness of players having the same game leading to more feelings of players not playing as a team and less teamwork. Worse mods make it so that destructive players can more easily abuse players not using mods. And then protective players end up smart to use mods to counter the actions of destructive players at least. Then there's even more divergence as to game having a multiplayer atmosphere.

If only all destructive players would only use the default game, then at least they would maintain or end up closer to some sort of sense of honor when attacking new players, but we both know it hasn't worked that way before, probably isn't happening now, and likely won't happen in the future. At least not in enough cases.

Last edited by Spoonwood (2021-06-29 04:31:30)

Spoonwood · 2021-06-29 04:36:30

Gremlynn wrote:

Yea i was going to mention phex. Its existence basically makes the language mechanic useless. Chat isnt character fixed and you can talk to every user that uses the mod at once. It not only makes language obsolete but it makes in game chat obsolete. Personally i find it to be the worst edition to the game and ruins a lot of the personality and community the game once had.

I think it makes it more easy to track some destructive players. The serially destructive ones who don't even have enough honor to play at the same level of new players while attacking them especially. Also, and I guess this isn't part of PX chat, but rather just Hetuw mod, the permanent identification of players is a serious improvement. Though, now that I remember that, you need to use PXChat at least once to do that, though you don't need to chat with other people there.

Laggy · 2021-07-02 12:46:07

How hard is it to understand what a different race wants? They always want the same thing, if your confused by this idk what to tell you. There is this thing called no verbal communication.

IMO, the language barrier is fine. It keeps the noobs from traveling to other towns just to talk.

DestinyCall · 2021-07-02 14:05:43

Yeah, God help us if we let noobs just wander from town to town chatting. It would be pure chaos.

Gremlynn · 2021-07-02 17:02:53

Try getting another race to help you make yellow dye, black ink, or tattoos. Then we can talk.

DestinyCall · 2021-07-02 19:06:39

Don't even get me started on ice cream.

Does Jason just hate fun? Serious question.

Spoonwood · 2021-07-02 22:35:17

Laggy wrote:

How hard is it to understand what a different race wants?

It's impossible if you don't understand what is in race-restricted object access biomes.

Laggy wrote:

They always want the same thing, if your confused by this idk what to tell you. There is this thing called no verbal communication.

I don't think so. From what I saw, Gingers didn't always want sulfur. Sometimes they wanted glasswort. I don't doubt others could come up with other examples if they thought about it there Laggy.

Last edited by Spoonwood (2021-07-02 22:37:31)

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#1 2021-06-26 22:18:48

Bring back multicultural families!!!

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