Trade Lacking Because Characters Too Equal, Including Men and Women

Spoonwood · 2021-12-18 15:42:01

Trade between a car mechanic and a computer game designer does not arise because of equality of the people involved, even though both involve technologies no more than 200 years old. On the contrary, the car mechanic has knowledge, inclination, and ability to repair cars, while the computer game designer paying for such services does not. The car mechanic does not have the knowledge, inclination, and ability to design computer games. Their trade precisely because such specialization saves each other time *and because* by trading the two parties gain the benefits of the expertise and superior ability of the other person. Though it's often more like "I'm willing to spend money for your superior ability in repairing this car, and you're willing to spend money for my superior ability in computer game programming", the people using money is constant among both parties, and thus doesn't reveal much about why trade happens.

The same can get said to happen in real world families. The woman has superior ability in feeding children. The man has superior ability in physical areas. Or both parties have other abilities which the other party does not. Thus, the man will trade physical labor, such as hand shoveling snow, or a greater willingness to work long hours at a job, while the women will provide more care to children, including feeding them or teaching them things about the world. Or they will trade other forms of labor with each other, where one of them is better than the other. Men and women trade in real world families, because they are not equal, each having their own superior abilities in some realm.

In OHOL though, at least within a village, the default characters are equal in terms of what they can do. Unlike the real world, male and female characters are both equally able and willing in terms of chopping trees and mining iron. There's no reason to trade intersexually, since male and female characters are equal. There's also often no reason to trade intrasexually, because the characters are equally capable, or the advantages occur to one party only, such as in the case of women who can breastfeed and those who can't, there's no advantage for the woman who can't breastfeed.

Laggy · 2021-12-18 15:53:46

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DestinyCall · 2021-12-18 18:08:13

This is why people call you a troll, Spoon. This right here.

We already have a racist trade system and you are arguing the game would be better with more sexism?

Intersexual trading? Really, Spoon? How do you even write that without it being an intentional joke or trolling attempt.

Spoonwood · 2021-12-18 18:34:00

DestinyCall wrote:

This is why people call you a troll, Spoon. This right here.
We already have a racist trade system and you are arguing the game would be better with more sexism?

Racism isn't sexism. Also, the game is sexist, in other words prejudiced, against men, because it doesn't give them any unique abilities. It is prejudiced in favor of women, because they have unique abilities. Also, the game is prejudiced in favor of females, because the game is deliberately designed that they get born more often. The game wouldn't be as sexist against men as it has long been if men had more unique abilities.

DestinyCall wrote:

Intersexual trading? Really, Spoon? How do you even write that without it being an intentional joke or trolling attempt.

Yes, intersexual trading. Yes, really Destiny. And it's easy to write that, because it's a real thing and has been a thing since even before organisms evolved into humans. Do you think in cold climates wives shovel the driveway as much as their husbands? Or that husbands feed their children as much as the wives do? That wives work as many hours in gainful employment as husbands? Or that husbands spend as much time with children as wives do?

Seriously, wake up. Men and women aren't equal. They trade, because they are unequal. And if they were equal, trading wouldn't happen. You can't have trading in a serious sense and equality. Inequality is necessary for trading.

Spoonwood · 2021-12-18 19:19:00

Also, Destiny my point was about the lack of inequality among characters. Since I think we've discussed before, let's say that male characters just got eliminated in the game.

Well, that wouldn't do anything for trading. Inequality of characters in some respect would still come as necessary for trading to occur. An inequality in characters wouldn't necessarily ensure such would happen, but there's no reason at all for people to trade if everyone is equal or things are such that the characters are near equal. Differences in abilities, inclinations, or something is necessary for trading. Equality is bad ... for trading, and inequality is good ... for trading.

That said, differentiating men and women in a more realistic way comes as a simple way of conceiving how trade occur, because trading among people of different sexes happens in the real world because of sexual differences among men and women.

karltown_veteran · 2021-12-18 19:23:03

This is actually pretty stupid. There are a lot of women in the real world who want to be physically strong, want to work a job, don't want to have kids. This isn't trolling, this is just hurting people. Stay at home moms are more likely to be depressed than women who work jobs so obviously this isn't some kind of innate inclination. Unless you actually believe this can you delete it?

selalov734 · 2021-12-18 19:44:00

A man suggests to give males in game some unique advantages because they have none and females are much better,
and immediately women join the discussion, say how stupid it is and want the thread to be deleted.

Also DestinyCall i am a bit disappointed that you didn't do the live-dev-changes this week, it was your turn, maybe you can do it next week.

Spoonwood · 2021-12-18 19:56:03

karltown_veteran wrote:

This is actually pretty stupid. There are a lot of women in the real world who want to be physically strong, want to work a job, don't want to have kids.

This isn't a question about absolute numbers or absolutes. It's about comparatives. Women haven't fought to go into the dirty and dangerous jobs in general. They aren't in general looking to get subjected to the selective service system in the United States as men already are (federal student loans are dependent on registering, and failing to register is a felony which can result in imprisonment and an accompanying loss of voting rights). Women aren't in general seeking to go into coal, or iron mining as much as men. They aren't seeking to become loggers as much as men are.

Reality isn't stupid.

karltown_veteran wrote:

This isn't trolling, this is just hurting people. Stay at home moms are more likely to be depressed than women who work jobs so obviously this isn't some kind of innate inclination. Unless you actually believe this can you delete it?

I think I said women work fewer hours. I didn't say that women don't work at all. A stay at home parent by definition doesn't work.

Women tend to marry up. Hypergamy is a thing. People higher up in social status tend to work longer hours. And men do on average work longer hours than women.

I stand by what I said above.

Men and women in the real world are not equal. That inequality is a necessary component of why they trade. If the game had inequality among the characters within villages, trading would become possible because of that inequality. That could included inequality of abilities between different sexes, such as inequality in ability to mine iron or chop trees, which again, seems easily conceived since logging and iron mining both are fields done almost entirely by men and for a very long time for significantly biological reasons.

Last edited by Spoonwood (2021-12-18 20:03:35)

Spoonwood · 2021-12-18 20:10:57

selalov734 wrote:

A man suggests to give males in game some unique advantages because they have none and females are much better,
and immediately women join the discussion, say how stupid it is and want the thread to be deleted.
Also DestinyCall i am a bit disappointed that you didn't do the live-dev-changes this week, it was your turn, maybe you can do it next week.

Yeah. Thanks for your comment selalov.

Dodge · 2021-12-18 20:25:10

Spoonwood wrote:

Trade between a car mechanic and a computer game designer does not arise because of equality of the people involved, even though both involve technologies no more than 200 years old. On the contrary, the car mechanic has knowledge, inclination, and ability to repair cars, while the computer game designer paying for such services does not. The car mechanic does not have the knowledge, inclination, and ability to design computer games. Their trade precisely because such specialization saves each other time *and because* by trading the two parties gain the benefits of the expertise and superior ability of the other person. Though it's often more like "I'm willing to spend money for your superior ability in repairing this car, and you're willing to spend money for my superior ability in computer game programming"

Yeah that was the whole idea of the job/specialization system, everyone would have a specialization and eventually trade would happen because it would be the best/most efficient (costing less ressources and time) to do things and the better way to run/evolve a civilisation, but unfortunately due to how poorly and simplified the job system turned into "tool slots" was implemented and because of how the game is structured, infinite respawns, infinite world, infinite ressources etc.

It simply didn't happen.

Regarding men and women i think women being the only one being able to give birth and breastfeed and men by opposition being able to work more makes a good enough difference.

But of course since you dont really lose much by abandonning your child then that difference becomes insignficant.

Abandon your child, work on your project, die, respawn, use a mod to find the coordinates of what you worked on, get it back, profit...

And from what i've seen so far "in next life" doesn't seem to be much more interesting in that aspect, but it's still very early and not even officially released so maybe could change.

DestinyCall · 2021-12-18 21:14:22

Spoonwood wrote:

Seriously, wake up. Men and women aren't equal. They trade, because they are unequal. And if they were equal, trading wouldn't happen. You can't have trading in a serious sense and equality. Inequality is necessary for trading.

So who shovels the snow in a gay marriage? Do they just not trade favors at all because they are too equal? How sad.

I love how you manage to take simple economic concept like comparative advantage, and twist it into an argument in support of gender inequity. You could have suggested job-based skills so individuals would have a reason to trade common goods or services with other skilled craftsman, as in your example of mechanic and game designer ... but no ... girls should make sandwiches and boys should play with trucks. That will fix everything.

Also, your misogyny is showing, Spoonwood. Might want to reevaluate some of your ideas about women in the real world. They are pretty out-dated and, frankly, offensive.

Spoonwood · 2021-12-18 22:36:27

Dodge wrote:

Yeah that was the whole idea of the job/specialization system, everyone would have a specialization and eventually trade would happen because it would be the best/most efficient (costing less ressources and time) to do things and the better way to run/evolve a civilisation, but unfortunately due to how poorly and simplified the job system turned into "tool slots" was implemented and because of how the game is structured, infinite respawns, infinite world, infinite ressources etc.

Everyone had the same starting point with tool slots. It also wasn't like one became better at say chopping trees by choosing to use an axe as a tool. Also, the idea was based on village need, not on players having reason to be different. Assuming that people had chosen the most needed slot at a given time, that would mean a fair amount of overlap. If both you and me chose using an axe, because our village had a severe shortage of kindling and firewood, why would we trade our slot abilities? We had the same one.

Dodge wrote:

And from what i've seen so far "in next life" doesn't seem to be much more interesting in that aspect, but it's still very early and not even officially released so maybe could change.

I don't know if the game developers have a goal of having trading in that game or not.

Dodge · 2021-12-18 22:55:06

Spoonwood wrote:

Everyone had the same starting point with tool slots. It also wasn't like one became better at say chopping trees by choosing to use an axe as a tool. Also, the idea was based on village need, not on players having reason to be different. Assuming that people had chosen the most needed slot at a given time, that would mean a fair amount of overlap. If both you and me chose using an axe, because our village had a severe shortage of kindling and firewood, why would we trade our slot abilities? We had the same one.

Yes "tool slots" was not the right way to implement a job of specialization system for multiple reasons.

To be fair even if the right way was done it would still have not led to trade since other issues would prevent that like the ones i mentionned previously and also due to how families and population are represented in game but all these issues could have been fixed, the game went another path and i highly doubt Jason is going to put more thought into this, he seems pretty set on going the forced uninteresting mechanics way and the game engine is so limited anyway that i'm not even sure it's worth sinking countless hours into thinking about the best way to implement a system that is actually interesting and enjoyable to play if it might not even be possible to add it to the game.

Spoonwood · 2021-12-18 22:58:48

DestinyCall wrote:

So who shovels the snow in a gay marriage? Do they just not trade favors at all because they are too equal? How sad.

I would guess that the physically stronger partner tends to shovel the snow in a gay marriage. People in gay marriages aren't necessarily too equal, since physical ability and/or willingness consists of the relevant difference. Also, are you saying that it's sad that women don't shovel the snow in their driveways more often?

DestinyCall wrote:

I love how you manage to take simple economic concept like comparative advantage, and twist it into an argument in support of gender inequity.

I didn't argue for gender injustice or unfairness: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/inequity I said that such gender inequalities are real. It is unfair to expect the same thing of two different people when they have different abilities. It is fair to expect things of people according to the abilities that they do have. So, it is fair to expect different things of the sexes to some non-trivial degree, since they are unequal in terms of their abilities *and* their interests.

DestinyCall wrote:

You could have suggested job-based skills so individuals would have a reason to trade common goods or services with other skilled craftsman, as in your example of mechanic and game designer ... but no ... girls should make sandwiches and boys should play with trucks.

I also find nothing wrong with women making sandwiches or men playing with trucks. Especially given that women are more suited to making sandwiches and men playing with trucks. And given that women and men have inequal abilities or interests in such areas, that has the positive consequence that trading on such a basis becomes possible. Inequality, including sexual inequality, even given such as bad in most other respects, is good in the respect that it enables trading to take place among different people.

I also note that feeding children also isn't limited to making sandwiches, and over the course of people's life includes breastfeeding.

Destinycall wrote:

Also, your misogyny is showing, Spoonwood.

No Destiny. Misogyny consists of the hatred of women which involves distorting how they are. I'm viewing women as they are, which *includes* acknowledging that women are inferior to men in some respects.

Destinycall wrote:

Might want to reevaluate some of your ideas about women in the real world. They are pretty out-dated and, frankly, offensive.

You have not given me cause to reevaluate any of my ideas. You haven't presented any new information which warrant such. And it's simply a timeless idea that men and women are different in terms of physical abilities. If you are offended that shows how much you have fallen prey to those who want to deny that the sexes have substantial differences.

And on top of that Destiny you *only* talked about women. Not me. I did NOT only talk about how women were inferior to men in what I said above. Again I said:

Spoonwood wrote:

The woman has superior ability in feeding children. The man has superior ability in physical areas.

There is no logic in claiming that both sexes have superior aspects is about one sex. But, for your claim about misogyny to work, it would have to be about one sex, and thus your claim of "misogyny" fails.

Last edited by Spoonwood (2021-12-18 23:11:31)

LonelyNeptune · 2021-12-19 02:03:27

Why hasn't this misogynistic cretin been excluded from the forum already? I don't come here to see delusional mumblings about ""hypergamy"" and that OHOL is somehow discriminatory against men because they don't get to be better than women.

DestinyCall · 2021-12-19 06:06:49

Spoonwood wrote:

Reality isn't stupid.

I beg to differ.

selalov734 · 2021-12-19 06:50:36

There is a big misunderstanding between Spoonwood and people in this forum.
Sometimes Spoonwood misunderstands people and sometimes people misunderstand Spoonwood.

The idea of Spoonwood behind this thread is very simple:
Men and Women are different in real life in various ways.
So because there is the idea of trade in this game, that trade should be encouraged, Spoonwood thought trade could be encouraged by making more differences between man and woman in game, maybe similar to the differences in the real world.

This is not meant as an insult.
Spoonwood is right that man and woman are different, woman have boobs for example and man do not have them. They also behave slightly different in general.
Maybe statistically speaking a man is more likely to shovel snow in front of their house than a woman is. That does not mean that a woman cant do it, or that women never do it.

If you now want to argue with Spoonwood you could say things like:

"I don't want more differences between men and women in game because i think women are treated unfairly in the real world and this should not be encouraged in a game."

or

"I dont want this because it would make the game less fun to play ... reasons .... "

But people are not doing this, instead they feel heavily insulted and reply with insults and other statements that make no sense to Spoonwood.
Spoonwood is not like you, he sees the world in a more clear way, not clouded by so many emotions.
I am certain that Spoonwood did not want to insult or troll anyone by making this thread.
He just likes to talk about his ideas and discuss things with other people here on the forum.
Please dont be angry with Spoonwood, try to see him as he is, he is not a bad person.

LonelyNeptune · 2021-12-19 07:10:19

selalov734 wrote:

Spoonwood is not like you, he sees the world in a more clear way, not clouded by so many emotions. He just likes to talk about his ideas and discuss things with other people here on the forum.

Could you be any more obvious about being an alt account? You don't do anything except turn up to defend Spoonwood.

selalov734 · 2021-12-19 07:17:26

LonelyNeptune wrote:

Could you be any more obvious about being an alt account? You don't do anything except turn up to defend Spoonwood.

Yes i am an alt... from you!
Look at our registered date, they are the same, coincidence? i think not.

DestinyCall · 2021-12-19 07:38:56

selalov734 wrote:

Spoonwood is not like you, he sees the world in a more clear way, not clouded by so many emotions.
I am certain that Spoonwood did not want to insult or troll anyone by making this thread.
He just likes to talk about his ideas and discuss things with other people here on the forum.
Please dont be angry with Spoonwood, try to see him as he is, he is not a bad person.

The problem is that he has done this enough times before, I have a hard time believing he is completely innocent.

Spoon could have made a perfectly fine thread about car mechanics and game designers trading favors. The core idea is not that complicated or controversial on its own. Adding greater diversity in terms of skill level or ability really could help to stimulate trade between individuals. But instead he made the conscious choice to focus on intersexual trade and breastfeeding.

As Spoonwood himself has already mentioned, he is an adult. I respect his intelligence enough to believe he is not stupid. So why does he keep doing this? I have to assume it is intentional at this point. He can't be completely oblivious to the effect his words will have on his target audience, because he has had years of practice making these kind of posts. That is a tons of empirical evidence to analyze with his very rational mind.

The truth is Spoonwood likes to argue. This thread and the others like it are argument bait. They give people a reason to disagree with him and that feeds his need to "correct" them when they say something "wrong".

He is not a typical internet troll that argues to get a reaction out of other people. I don't really think Spoon cares that much about other people's thoughts or opinions, despite his many, many posts on this forum. He just likes to argue and needs other people to talk to him long enough to consider himself the "winner" of the debate.

Seriously ... don't feed the troll.

Spoonwood · 2021-12-19 08:13:50

selalov734 wrote:

There is a big misunderstanding between Spoonwood and people in this forum.
Sometimes Spoonwood misunderstands people and sometimes people misunderstand Spoonwood.
The idea of Spoonwood behind this thread is very simple:
Men and Women are different in real life in various ways.
So because there is the idea of trade in this game, that trade should be encouraged, Spoonwood thought trade could be encouraged by making more differences between man and woman in game, maybe similar to the differences in the real world.
This is not meant as an insult.
Spoonwood is right that man and woman are different, woman have boobs for example and man do not have them. They also behave slightly different in general.
Maybe statistically speaking a man is more likely to shovel snow in front of their house than a woman is. That does not mean that a woman cant do it, or that women never do it.
If you now want to argue with Spoonwood you could say things like:
"I don't want more differences between men and women in game because i think women are treated unfairly in the real world and this should not be encouraged in a game."
or
"I dont want this because it would make the game less fun to play ... reasons .... "
But people are not doing this, instead they feel heavily insulted and reply with insults and other statements that make no sense to Spoonwood.
Spoonwood is not like you, he sees the world in a more clear way, not clouded by so many emotions.
I am certain that Spoonwood did not want to insult or troll anyone by making this thread.
He just likes to talk about his ideas and discuss things with other people here on the forum.
Please dont be angry with Spoonwood, try to see him as he is, he is not a bad person.

Thank you selalov. You have written a fair enough summary of some of what I've said.

Spoonwood · 2021-12-19 08:36:14

DestinyCall wrote:

But instead he made the conscious choice to focus on intersexual trade and breastfeeding.

The original post has not gotten edited. Breastfeeding wasn't mentioned in the original post also. So, no, I didn't focus on such in the original post. I said that women were better with respect to feeding children. I didn't explain why, and I would guess that in most male-female relationships women tend to be the better cooks, even though the top chefs in the restaurant industry are generally thought to be men. Who studies nutrition for children more, men or women? I would guess that it's women, not only because women spend more time preparing food for children, but there are more women in dietetics than men.

That said, even if men are better cooks, women still end up better at feeding children overall, because of breastfeeding.

"WHO [the world health organization] recommends exclusive breastfeeding for the first 6 months of life, followed by continued breastfeeding with appropriate complementary foods for up to 2 years and beyond. "

https://www.who.int/westernpacific/heal … astfeeding

"The American Academy of Pediatrics reaffirms its recommendation of exclusive breastfeeding for about 6 months, followed by continued breastfeeding as complementary foods are introduced, with continuation of breastfeeding for 1 year or longer as mutually desired by mother and infant. Medical contraindications to breastfeeding are rare."

https://publications.aap.org/pediatrics … Human-Milk
https://www.who.int/westernpacific/heal … astfeeding

DestinyCall wrote:

The truth is Spoonwood likes to argue. This thread and the others like it are argument bait. They give people a reason to disagree with him and that feeds his need to "correct" them when they say something "wrong".

If I wanted to argue, I would have expected counterarguments. I don't recall any counterarguments to me talking about sexual differences, and I did not seek them, as I often find them false to facts or not bothering to attempt to understand men and women as groups. I also don't recall any counterarguments to me about inequality being necessary for trade to exist, which was the point of this thread. I also don't expect counterarguments in the future on this also.

DestinyCall · 2021-12-19 08:39:10

selalov734 wrote:

Spoonwood is right that man and woman are different, woman have boobs for example and man do not have them.

Are you sure?

Last I checked, men were still mammals. And mammals have boobs.

obese-young-man-royalty-free-image-187045069-1531148344.jpg

Just look at those beauties.

....

Fun fact - men not only have real breasts and nipples, they even have functioning milk ducts. All that is missing are the hormonal triggers necessary to stimulate lactation. Under the proper conditions, men are able to produce breastmilk, just like a woman.

Isn't biology fascinating?

DestinyCall · 2021-12-19 08:44:13

Spoonwood wrote:

The original post has not gotten edited. Breastfeeding wasn't mentioned in the original post also.

Yes it was.

Spoonwood wrote:

If I wanted to argue, I would have expected counterarguments.

What did you expect?

Spoonwood · 2021-12-19 08:54:09

LonelyNeptune wrote:

Why hasn't this misogynistic cretin been excluded from the forum already? I don't come here to see delusional mumblings about ""hypergamy"" and that OHOL is somehow discriminatory against men because they don't get to be better than women.

The term "hypergamy" refers to the practice of someone marrying a spouse of higher status. It's not a term with any sort of value judgment about whether doing such is warranted or good or unwarranted or bad. It is no delusional mumbling to say that such exists and that such exists in the form of hypergyny. Here's the wiki on such, which will point to evidence that people have found of it's existence statistically speaking: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypergamy

I also didn't focus on women in the original post. Again, I said:

Spoonwood wrote:

The woman has superior ability in feeding children. The man has superior ability in physical areas.

Misogyny would have to be about one sex, the female sex. But, I talked about more than one sex.

You might want to know what terms mean, before you call someone else a cretin.

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Trade Lacking Because Characters Too Equal, Including Men and Women

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