How To Make the Diesel Mining Pick Get Used More

Spoonwood · 2022-03-26 20:41:10

Make it so that engines can't get removed from wells again. Also, so that engines can't get from an iron mine. Then families will be smart to put an engine on an iron mine *before* putting it on their well, so that they can get iron to make a 2nd engine.

Also, engines can get put on muddy iron veins, and thus kill off an iron unlock from that spot? If it were just one vein, that could be ok, but if that kills off iron unlock, one could kill off all iron unlocks ahead of the Eves, I think.

Spoonwood · 2022-03-26 21:19:20

Spoonwood wrote:

Also, engines can get put on muddy iron veins, and thus kill off an iron unlock from that spot?

It sure does look like it, since an engine can get put on a muddy iron vein, and then once removed, the collapses the mine. It accordingly makes no sense that engines can get removed from mines, since one person could theoretically kill off all iron unlock for Eves in an area.

Last edited by Spoonwood (2022-03-26 21:21:31)

LonelyNeptune · 2022-03-27 13:16:59

Spoonwood wrote:

one person could theoretically kill off all iron unlock for Eves in an area.

Thanks for the idea, I'll give it a try.

fug · 2022-03-27 21:14:06

I mean I agree, I definitely don't think engines should be removable at least from the town well site. This feature was added as a means to allow one engine to be moved from producing water to iron and vice versa. What the update actually leads to is trolls smashing the engine because that was thought to be a good idea.

Besides the previous posted reason, diesel rigs are movable from iron sites as a means for older families to be able to migrate from their original towns to new areas should they want to do that.

Spoonwood · 2022-03-27 21:25:30

fug wrote:

This feature was added as a means to allow one engine to be moved from producing water to iron and vice versa.

If this wasn't clear before...

The reasoning here doesn't make sense as a means of motivating the diesel mining pick. With things movable, you only need one engine, and thus less iron need. A diesel mining pick is only needed and preferable if there's a shortage of iron in an area. But, with only one engine getting used there's less probability of a shortage in an area. Two engines needed makes it more likely that there's an iron shortage in an area, and thus would more likely motivate making the diesel mining pick.

Also, as Pein pointed out in some comment a while back, you wouldn't do water before iron under this. The first engine and kero would then go to the diesel mining pick, because if someone messed up and put the unremovable engine on the exhausted deep well, one would have to scavenge for iron from far away or get it from other families. So, the diesel mining pick would get used earlier, at least with smarter players.

Additionally, and I didn't mention this before, for sure... oil running out demotivates the use of the diesel mining pick. I mean, if we unlimited oil, then it would be probably be preferable to use the diesel mining pick, since it wouldn't use up any pips with hungry work. But, with finite oil, then the diesel mining pick isn't preferable to using a mining pick and doing hungry work, since that's less costly than using kerosene.

pein · 2022-03-27 23:38:28

Before the engine removal the location and the infrastructure sustaining it were linked. You couldn't have a well engine without a good town, and you couldn't have a good town that can sustain life without an engine. But even Newcomen was a tech that was hard to reach without the proper skill and activity. Some players do care about locations and don't just randomly make things, they try to optimize every element of the town so the new tech can be made faster and more efficiently.

The engine removal allowed shitcamps to own technology they would normally couldn't make and with their setup would be almost impossible to reach even if they get some good players. So it made the nomad lifestyle and the scavengers even more powerful. Back before, you could restart a good town if you carried resources there, but since it was so easy to steal the most expensive item in the whole town, after it was gone, it made everything else devaluate. So people stole everything else made of metal and even the doors.
All those good looking ghost towns and all the shitcamps with engines and stolen stuff made strategic play and planning useless.

There were many situations where Jason couldn't balance properly the effort and reward and the reward vs punishment. But this was the biggest blow to it. Players skipping steps to get the tech isn't a good gameplay and ruining good towns isn't good either. Combined with the 'everything runs out' bullshit is just super bad. When you already do things for others out of your generosity and all it takes one bad intended player to ruin it. If you look at the big picture, everything is pointless in OHOL. Nothing will last, nothing will stand, nothing you do matters. Jason thinks that everyone works the same and worth the same but it's just not true, some people carried several others and in return he made them harder to do so, this won't make others work harder, it just makes them give up faster. Because in the end there is no goal or personal pressure and if people don't know the time and effort going into making things they don't even appreciate it.

And that's where this communist utopia fails, when everyone gets 'paid' the same way, some people work less and leech on the others. He made theft the most optimal way of progress. I personally don't enjoy dealing with social issues when the game doesn't even have a framework for it. The drama of somebody stealing the towns engine? They don't even see it, there is no drama, half of the people don't even realize it's gone or if they had it in the first place. Most of people didn't even care that the town is ruined as long as they can chat and eat and name their babies they don't care. Why would you lock things up and guard it? it just creates more problems than solutions. If it's not a well balanced automatic system then it's so pointless spending 'years' of your life deciding leaders and limiting access to things.

removing or moving things is fine but it really should be similar effort to undo things, or it makes zero sense. If you spend 90 minutes to make an engine, it should really require a tool that is not so easy to make and it's only one use to remove that engine. SO like make a fire, make a tool, get some resources first, so you don't just walk in a town and steal with a single click then run away with it.

Cogito · 2022-03-28 01:26:29

pein wrote:

removing or moving things is fine but it really should be similar effort to undo things, or it makes zero sense. If you spend 90 minutes to make an engine, it should really require a tool that is not so easy to make and it's only one use to remove that engine. SO like make a fire, make a tool, get some resources first, so you don't just walk in a town and steal with a single click then run away with it.

Love this idea.

A Wrench, maybe, that takes at least iron and maybe some rare resources to make. Recipe could be something like:

- use a chisel on a hot iron ingot on a flat stone
- hit with a hammer
- removing the chisel
- hit with the hammer again

If you use it to remove an engine the Wrench breaks.

You could also use the Wrench on an engine sitting on the ground to disassemble it into components.

wondible · 2022-03-31 13:39:06

Spoonwood wrote:

Also, engines can get put on muddy iron veins, and thus kill off an iron unlock from that spot?

Someone is now doing this in bulk; there is a very regular gird pattern across a large area in the activity map.

jasonrohrer · 2022-03-31 23:15:01

I'm now looking back at the reasoning for why engines were removable in the first place.

jasonrohrer · 2022-03-31 23:32:54

Ah, here:

https://github.com/jasonrohrer/OneLifeData7/issues/812

In general, almost everything in the game is deconstructable (except for ancient walls and a few other things).
Iron is scarce in the game. If you find an abandoned engine somewhere, the iron would otherwise be trapped in it.
If the engine cannot be removed, then the engine itself is useless if it's stuck (you can't put it in a car or a plane or a well or an iron mine---it will be stuck where it was initially installed).
So, obviously engines must be removable so they can be re-purposed.
And if an engine can be removed, it can be stolen and hidden, which is just as "bad" as destroying it.
So what's the point of trapping iron in a removable engine? What are we preventing by doing that?
Why not give people the option of getting the iron out of it to use in other things?

Maybe the idea here is that the Well engine and the Mine engine are always useful.... in that they never run out of Water or Ore, as long as you supply more fuel.

Which makes them different from the Car/plane/etc engine, which might not always be useful, so you want to be able to re-purpose them.

So the Well and the Mine engine should be permanent.

But this also came up in this issue:

https://github.com/jasonrohrer/OneLifeData7/issues/700

We can imagine situations, given that iron is scarce and precious, that someone would want to recycle an engine. That is a powerful thing to be able to do, when necessary.
Property fences are inheritable, as you know.
The fact that "you don't know what the next generation will do" is the entire point of this game.
You're supposed to not "throw up your hands" in the face of that uncertainty. You're supposed to be conducting trans-generational planning, through communication between generations, and passing traditions along. Actually doing that is where stuff gets real... where the "well master" isn't just role-playing, but is actually the guy in charge of the well, and he will pick an apprentice before he dies, to carry on the tradition.
If you're not doing that currently, it's because you don't need to currently---OR because you're ignoring that need, at the expense of your village's survival.
Adding more things to the game that makes such trans-generation communication necessary is a good thing.
I'm well aware that many players HATE the idea of trans-generational cooperation and communication.

There's a lingering question here, which is: should we make OHOL into a game that people want to play a lot, if that means making it less like it's supposed to be, and more like a bunch of other games that already exist?

Trans-gen planning is hard and unfulfilling.... many players come to the conclusion that it's pointless and hopeless. But obviously, that's what this game is about. Solo and team-based survival games are much more fulfilling.

On the flip side, we could say, "Well, in OHOL we build up permanent stuff across generations... we make our little permanent contribution to a growing pyramid of contributions." That's definitely at least in the spirit of what OHOL should be about... but aren't there practicality issues? It means nothing can every change once it's been set in place. Obviously, you want to be able to move walls, etc.

We can say, "Well, just engine placement should never change." But even that could have practicality issues, or even inverse-griefing. What if you're just about to place an engine on the well, and someone runs off and *permanently* puts it on an iron vein?

jasonrohrer · 2022-04-01 01:30:13

Anyway, I've decided to try it. Mini-update incoming.

LonelyNeptune · 2022-04-01 02:09:23

I'm on the edge of my seat to find out how the chronic whiners spin this one.

Eve Troll · 2022-04-01 02:39:51

I think balancing difficulty with satisfaction is a good thing. Even at the cost of uniqueness. In the end of thr day people play games to have fun. The challenge of this game is one of its best characteristics but when those challenges feel pointless or drive away players it might be worth considering toning it down a bit.

When looking at veteran players it can make it easy to forget how hard and unforgiving this game was in the beginning. When the game is so challenging that people dont even have time to communicate, teach, or form connections we lose a lot of what makes this game great.

Perhaps more satisfying challenges that feel good to overcome is the answer as opposed to ones that feel like endless grinding only to have it mean next to nothing.

Hopefully you considering giving this game some much needed love. Im sure players would come back if they saw some QoL changes.

Eve Troll · 2022-04-01 02:43:47

Also, consider bringing back the rift. >:)

But much much bigger. 3000x3000 tiles should do nicely.

fug · 2022-04-01 03:54:03

The issue with the engine being able to be deconstructed falls into something Pein always talked about: The how much time something takes to do something vs the time to grief it. It seriously has never made sense that it takes literal seconds to destroy an engine vs the time it takes to build one. It has hasn't made any sense to ever do this so far in my opinion and has only ever been used to grief a town of its resources.

Overall great update though, garlic has been an annoyance and removing the ability to destroy a town water source is great as well.

annjust · 2022-04-01 05:12:57

Seem we are playing different game Spoon ? Engine or iron not always the problem , what I saw is in a medium village there is a newcomen pump well , and more than one engine was knocked at a private fence , and in a large city , more engines are knocked, with good lucky you can see truck and sportscar too in the same fence . Because the villages are dead so fast , there always someone would loot things to their expanding and developing west home . I remember the Love family one of the longest gens within months was dead , the new family members from 10k far west , ignored the long travel bored , still loot its fence knocked thing which of course include engines and kero .
Nowdays , what is the truth ? Make an engine ? No , loot one from east .
As every village can't survived more than four or five days , an abandon-loot recycles is worked well . And some high-tech master fam's good appetite for making one or two engines , as well as a truck or a sportscar , can be a good supplement to the recycles .
BTW Jason can u give us torch or lighter ? I just want to conveniently light my oven or kiln when I needed. To avoid starting a fire from drilling wood, I have to keep adding firewood making the fire never goes out, it really makes me tired.

Spoonwood · 2022-04-01 06:03:06

jasonrohrer wrote:

What if you're just about to place an engine on the well, and someone runs off and *permanently* puts it on an iron vein?

That's a very short time period. It could happen, sure, but I think it will be less frequent than engines disappearing into the woods or getting scrapped. Also, for that one, another engine could get started for the town's well in principle using iron from that diesel iron mine. Putting an engine on the well could be more dangerous, since then the town might not have any way of getting iron from any nearby mines. But, survival without iron, though unpleasant, is more feasible than survival without water. Additionally, getting iron from unused mines elsewhere or other families might be possible.

I kind of agree that removing engines could be useful... but that would apply to engines on vehicles. The lingering question here I think is should engines be removed from trucks or sports cars even once fully completed?

Spoonwood · 2022-04-01 06:05:57

Eve Troll wrote:

Also, consider bringing back the rift. >:)
But much much bigger. 3000x3000 tiles should do nicely.

The Rift had a trail of babies following a mother or two at the end. The size of The Rift had nothing to do with that, and it certainly wasn't a good situation.

Spoonwood · 2022-04-01 06:16:56

annjust wrote:

Seem we are playing different game Spoon ? Engine or iron not always the problem , what I saw is in a medium village there is a newcomen pump well , and more than one engine was knocked at a private fence , and in a large city , more engines are knocked, with good lucky you can see truck and sportscar too in the same fence . Because the villages are dead so fast , there always someone would loot things to their expanding and developing west home . I remember the Love family one of the longest gens within months was dead , the new family members from 10k far west , ignored the long travel bored , still loot its fence knocked thing which of course include engines and kero .
Nowdays , what is the truth ? Make an engine ? No , loot one from east .
As every village can't survived more than four or five days , an abandon-loot recycles is worked well . And some high-tech master fam's good appetite for making one or two engines , as well as a truck or a sportscar , can be a good supplement to the recycles .
BTW Jason can u give us torch or lighter ? I just want to conveniently light my oven or kiln when I needed. To avoid starting a fire from drilling wood, I have to keep adding firewood making the fire never goes out, it really makes me tired.

The factual claims that you made I agree with. People *scavenged* engines from old locations (I wouldn't call it "looting", because one can't steal from the dead exactly... but the point doesn't change). It was very common. I don't see how what you point out contradicted anything that I said in the original post though.

As you said, yep, people took engines from the east probably more often than making an engine. That's probably more time played away from the people in the village, right? It requires less knowledge of the game to scavenge an engine and keep it secure than to make an engine, right?

Oh, and Eves who chose one iron vein locations would *not* so often have descendants who had an iron issue, because they could scavenge an engine from locations with no one living instead needing to make an engine or two, correct?

So you know, 2HOL has a flint with steel recipe which functions as a lighter.

Paradoxal_1 · 2022-04-01 15:24:51

Oh thank you jason so much!

This is the best update in two years!

You will never know how sick I was of seeing an over abundance of engines in almost every towns property fence.

Whenever a town dies, someone goes and collects them all and brings them to the new eve town.

Ruins the whole game experience when trying to start over in a fresh caveman eve town, then boom eve has multiple engines and kero.

Surprise eve! Your dry deep well is now a diesel well. Skipping right over needing piles of tires, all in eve's lifetime.

Amazing update!

Plus it stops well and iron engines from being stolen or grief scrapped? WOW.

And that is not all? We also get the useless Garlic bulbs fixed? No more Vampire graveyards with garlic on every gravestone cause that was only way to get rid of dozens of garlics?

Woah. This might seem like a minor coding fix to jason, but this is actually a huge game breaking update!

I love it!

Plus we get a bonus secret update in game, we have to find on ApriL FOolS Day?

Thank you jason!

Next fix airplanes!

Make airport pad last longer then two hours.

Flying to other towns to get supplies like mango,banana,cactus,kero,rubber,glass, or to sight see ancient towns from weeks ago would be lots of fun and add exploration to the game.

Dont worry about griefers, as long as we can destroy airports with a pick axe, we will be fine.

Oh ya. Maybe make it possible to destroy bear caves. That would help alot in making straight roads and stop griefers around towns.

Paradoxal_1 · 2022-04-01 15:28:06

And make mine carts so they keep moving when off screen. Then we can use mine carts to second wells and iron mines.

Spoonwood · 2022-04-01 15:30:26

Paradoxal_1 wrote:

Surprise eve! Your dry deep well is now a diesel well. Skipping right over needing piles of tires, all in eve's lifetime.

We talked about this a while back in some post. I never knew a town to skip the newcomen stage on bigserver2 since the spring update. I could have missed it, sure.

Eve Troll · 2022-04-01 18:35:27

Spoonwood wrote:

Eve Troll wrote:
Also, consider bringing back the rift. >:)
But much much bigger. 3000x3000 tiles should do nicely.
The Rift had a trail of babies following a mother or two at the end. The size of The Rift had nothing to do with that, and it certainly wasn't a good situation.

This happened due to a glitch. An end tower was triggered and only the females left over could spawn babies and no new eves were spawning. Since it was a new arc everyone was trying to eve or at least start a fresh life. That resulted in a small amount of females getting tons of spawns. Babies kept /dying to eve and mothers were abandoning them because there wasnt enough wild food to survive and feed them all.

It was called the babypocalypse because it was a flood of babies, due to an apocalypse...

The rift never worked like that normally. It worked fine for the most part but they were too short most of the time and we ran out of resourcess too quickly. Both problems easily managed with a larger sizes space. We're already locked in a moving rift anyway. Forcing all the families to stay close and constantly being pushed west.

It would be nice to have some stability to grow roots in a confined space rather than always feel on the run and watch families and towns die over and over again in an endless cycle. Never getting the opportunity to develop history and culture around them.

As someone who never played during the rift i dont think you have the right to speak on how or what it was like to play during it..

Spoonwood · 2022-04-01 18:43:12

Eve Troll wrote:

As someone who never played during the rift i dont think you have the right to speak on how or what it was like to play during it

I watched videos and streams. It was a lot of senseless killing.

Laggy · 2022-04-01 19:12:37

Next you could fix milkweed. People also grief by making fields of milkweed with 3 bowl of soil per row, you can destroy the towns soil and water and make like 10 ropes

One Hour One Life Forums

#1 2022-03-26 20:41:10

How To Make the Diesel Mining Pick Get Used More

#2 2022-03-26 21:19:20

Re: How To Make the Diesel Mining Pick Get Used More

#3 2022-03-27 13:16:59

Re: How To Make the Diesel Mining Pick Get Used More

#4 2022-03-27 21:14:06

Re: How To Make the Diesel Mining Pick Get Used More

#5 2022-03-27 21:25:30

Re: How To Make the Diesel Mining Pick Get Used More

#6 2022-03-27 23:38:28

Re: How To Make the Diesel Mining Pick Get Used More

#7 2022-03-28 01:26:29

Re: How To Make the Diesel Mining Pick Get Used More

#8 2022-03-31 13:39:06

Re: How To Make the Diesel Mining Pick Get Used More

#9 2022-03-31 23:15:01

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#10 2022-03-31 23:32:54

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#11 2022-04-01 01:30:13

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#12 2022-04-01 02:09:23

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#16 2022-04-01 05:12:57

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#19 2022-04-01 06:16:56

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#20 2022-04-01 15:24:51

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#21 2022-04-01 15:28:06

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