How To Make the Diesel Mining Pick Get Used More

Eve Troll · 2022-04-01 22:08:22

Spoonwood wrote:

Eve Troll wrote:
As someone who never played during the rift i dont think you have the right to speak on how or what it was like to play during it
I watched videos and streams. It was a lot of senseless killing.

Hasnt that always been the game?

With leadership that would remove that problem anyway.

In terms of killing with sense. Many families would attack each other to take over cities and resources. People would flee and be refugees, gain back their strength and take back their homeland.

There were always stories in the rift and families developed a history as well as the cities created. You could see a city housing many different families over the course of an arc and each would put their own mark on it.

People would construct monuments and hidden outposts that gave a richness to the land that has been lost.

Spoonwood · 2022-04-02 01:46:50

Eve Troll wrote:

Hasnt that always been the game?

No. There's not much killing these days. Well not today, since it's snake bite day. But otherwise, no, not so much.

Eve Troll · 2022-04-02 02:03:48

Yea i mostly meant in general, especially pre-leadership.

Most of the killing and etc was for family domination, to fight over resources, or reset the rift. Spawns would adjust to the amount of families in the rift. So families would kill each other off once eve spawns stopped so their families would get spawn priority. It would get harder and harder to kill off families the less there were. Making it into the top three guarenteed a long line.

A lot of people got tired of the slump that would happen after resources peaked. We would run out of room and natural resources which would limit the ability to be creative. In those times people would resort to violence or griefing.

Even though that being the case you still saw unique and remarkable cities pop up almost ever arc. Roads connecting many if not all. This was the last time I really felt a connection to the game. Many arcs still sit in my mind with their unique stories, monuments, cities, and families.

Since, families have felt hollow. Only defined by their race or utility. Cities are lost as fast as they are made. There is no time to develop culture, history, or stories.

pein · 2022-04-02 14:18:05

jasonrohrer wrote:

Maybe the idea here is that the Well engine and the Mine engine are always useful.... in that they never run out of Water or Ore, as long as you supply more fuel.
Which makes them different from the Car/plane/etc engine, which might not always be useful, so you want to be able to re-purpose them.
So the Well and the Mine engine should be permanent.
But this also came up in this issue:

There's a lingering question here, which is: should we make OHOL into a game that people want to play a lot, if that means making it less like it's supposed to be, and more like a bunch of other games that already exist?
Trans-gen planning is hard and unfulfilling.... many players come to the conclusion that it's pointless and hopeless. But obviously, that's what this game is about. Solo and team-based survival games are much more fulfilling.
On the flip side, we could say, "Well, in OHOL we build up permanent stuff across generations... we make our little permanent contribution to a growing pyramid of contributions." That's definitely at least in the spirit of what OHOL should be about... but aren't there practicality issues? It means nothing can every change once it's been set in place. Obviously, you want to be able to move walls, etc.
We can say, "Well, just engine placement should never change." But even that could have practicality issues, or even inverse-griefing. What if you're just about to place an engine on the well, and someone runs off and *permanently* puts it on an iron vein?

The issue there was you listening to who says it and not what he says. That post made no logical sense, not then not now. There is an order of things and how you should proceed to reach them. The only situations would of been useful, the main issue is how to filter out people who should be able to make such decisions for everyone.

Sounds more like an issue with the game not giving enough help and tools to see the problems. But also that the 'problem' is always the same: water, iron, and you even made them more linked so the water problem is really an iron problem, and the iron problem is a water problem. Which makes it repetitive, boring, and unfun, to suffer from the same problem, to be forced to fix the same issue.

Also the problem that lives are too cheap. You said that yourself, then you made it even cheaper. With a fixed resource count and fixed values the resources can be converted into time and time can not be converted to resources if they don't recharge and recycle. People eat, use water and soil, use iron, iron has a water value, food has a water value, soil has a water value. Probably 90% of people were using water ineffectively and they don't provide enough resources for their upkeep, so all in all, others are forced to produce the rest of those resources, and it can usually make others even more useless as people aren't motivated to do the chores when others do it for them. So you think you made the game harder when you removed the recharging of resources, but it's for all the wrong reasons.
Because some players still would do the chores and convert their time into resources but they can't because the distance is too far or the actions to do so are too complicated so they can't without fully committing to it. So you blocked that, but you still didn't do anything about the people stealing things and the issues of ownership and the engine stealing was the pinnacle of that, when people could just take the most expensive item to ruin a town and make theirs jump tech in seconds.

I can imagine that the whole area gets reduced to bare lands and the engine moving is legit, but then still should be a harder way of doing so, those situations are rare and the person who removes it should have enough game and map knowledge to do so. But if people can make a new one then there is no reason of removing well or iron pit engines. But then the problem is still the same, that removes quite a lot of resources from nearby.

You don't know what the next generation will do. But the players should not worry about what they undo. Because quite some of the people are really good at repurposing things they haven't made and wasting the resources others left for them. So if someone spent his time making something valuable, others should be able to destroy it in a few seconds intentionally or unintentionally.

You introduced quite a few (bad) magical solutions to things, despite refusing the (good) early suggestions.
First of all there is no TOWN. There is no territory belonging to a town and a line where it doesn't belong anymore to that town. It's a bunch of items thrown on the ground so where the garbage ends people turn back and go to bushes and eat a few more berries to check the other directions the garbage ends. Land is not valuable, you can't own it, you can't really clean it up and upgrade it's worth much. All the mechanics were belonging to players, families. That woman in that family gets a kid first then the other woman in the other family gets another then the 2nd woman in this gets the next. There is nothing about towns, it's about people. Also why the issues happen with all the leadership rules because there are no official satellite towns or splitting. I guess the iron and water is linked to a family and a spot but not much about other things. Like I would like to know what tools this town has so I don't have to go around it. I might be able to do the check but some people don't and I'm pretty sure that's why they do some dumb choices which then affect everyone.

Also quite bad that everyone is short sighted so they don't even see the town from above to see the structures. So planning is hard to do when people can't even see more than 7x7. Like how they plan things if they need like 100 hours of experience and a modded client to even understand why things are there where they are and why others intended that way.

There is no communication because you don't provide an easy way that people of the town can talk. No town chat, you got to walk next to them and they might miss half of it. Also making letters is longer than making food for everyone so you can write either write 5 letters on a board or their names on their graves. This balancing feels quite off, some actions take more time then their rewards provide. Is it something that is necessary for survival? does it take longer than doing something for survival? when all is centered around food, and food costs resources it's kind of weird that those things that are for just the rp costs so much too. 3 others starve while you bury one person. Graveyard simulator. Most people don't even see that. Since the interface doesn't really help them track it.

The game doesn't have a good retention. So people don't like the interface or the learning curve. So the ones that are able to handle that would be powerful agents to helping new people. So yes, you should make a game that is fun to play for long time. I think it's possible to be original still. Or you can feel that it's unique but it's not. We are quite far from the start of gaming, there are a lot of less known games that did something but nobody really knows about it. It's just the question of 'is it the right solution?' because half ass solutions aren't good. When an issue needs to be tackled, needs a good well planned solution that most people agree with. I mean if 90% of the playerbase hates something and you still force it on them then it's not a good solution. You can always add a twist to the elements borrowed from other games. The combinations of mechanics are still quite unique even if the elements aren't on their own.

Trans gen would make sense if people can spectate or able to return later. If they don 't, then what's the point? if they keep it or ruin it, if you don't know you don't know. No point wondering about it. You can see what they left for you and wonder who might of been, and be happy or unhappy about it. It's somewhat interesting except there isn't much of a difference in how towns look. But yeah the engines at least indicate the tech they reached on their own, not stolen from somewhere else.

Your last line: actually that's the correct order, you can make a new engine using iron, and pretty sure people are able to collect water with a bit of effort, like even in the rift, they were too lazy to step like 30 tiles to get water from the ponds.
Actually the real issue is that the engine takes way too long to make, and part of that is the setup is so bad in most towns, that building a new area to smith where people don't disturb you saves more time than to try to organize the existing setup. It's hard but not for the right reasons. Actually if people could own things and others can't interact with it unless they get permission it would solve some of those issues. But that would require ample resources so the time invested matters more not the resources and timing (that 30 sec timers are crazy annoying).

I still don't think that the 'everything runs out' model is fun or exiting or makes a good game. The resources should scale with players. And every new person should bring value, not remove more. There should be a way to solve the puzzles. The time of the players should be rewarded more. That also needs more pressure on their personal level so they need to put in the work for themselves and don't expect all from others. So punish them for not doing the chores, not for being born the wrong time (or for wrong skin color). If the iron comes back each hour than it can offset the usage. The usage can be increased over time, the production decrease and the resource becomes more scarce. But the mistakes of not using them effectively are not so severe. That would require more of the important resources not just water and iron. So like power production or the wood industry improved. So there would be different scarcity levels of resources, making them more or less important and feed each other. So the problems are also different. And the time to do the work is the important, not the resources itself. You produce 20 iron but the well needs 18 per hour you can't make enough tools. You could improve the iron production with more wood but then you can't afford wood items for example. Each production line should matter, scale up, show the progress, but the issues would shift between them. So players feel that they doing well, they got extra resources.

Btw going further and further and ruining more and more land is not fun at all. Sends the wrong message too. Things can be fixed if people care. Not sure what would be a point of a game that has the dark message of everything will be ruined anyway. Things get ruined if you don't care. Like there could be other issues, not just water and soil, but farms get ruined by natural catastrophes, other tiles become inaccessible.
Also most players don't go far from a city, there is some progression, like an Eve camp, people don't go too far until the food is produced, after the axe is made they go like 30-50 tiles and late game towns around 80-100. But a lot of players live their whole life in the same place. Whats the point if their problems got no solution within that? travelling isn't fun either. When transporting is so hard there is no point, so without resources that come back and projects that need more resources, towns are not fun. You think of them the wrong way, they are not fulfilling because you don't have a way to convert your time into useful things that the town needs. Because there are no such things. You can't combine 2 complex items into a 3rd that does something, has a bonus, does something different or does the same thing as the other but a bit faster, better, looks better. So while people would have t o go way further and don't have enough resources to add to the town, the whole thing is boring, cleaning up others mess.

We might as well get smaller maps per family, not for the entire server but each fam. People could solve the puzzle and move to next map or die before they can do that. Running or riding horses for 20 minutes or more isn't fun either. And the race restrictions are the most horrible. People will do the things they can do, they won't do things they can't, not because of their race, or language, but because they don't know the recipes for it or why others can't do the recipes themselves if they know how to, it's a confusing system. It would be okay only if they can do everything but in different ways.

Positions could be fun if there is a framework for them. Don't expect that someone would have fun sitting in a fence with a well and give water to others. This whole communist utopia fails when people don't share things. Either provide a way that we can truly own things, people could still share things if they want. positions could work if the other parts of the game are better. Like you could take a position, which would come with tasks and responsibilities, and if you fail you would need to choose something else. Also you would get rewards and bonuses based on it. If it's just roleplay and requires you half hour to explain the jist of it, it's not really a tradition. Especially if a chain breaks and everyone forgets it anyway. If the town could focus on one thing and become better at it, like producing more wood, faster than other towns that would make it a specialty. Then if that would could be used to make buildings that would make it a better choice than clay or stone. If buildings have a reason why to make them then it would make sense to build them. Like a research bench or repair station could only be placed into a 6x6 building. Then there is a reason why you do a job, why you have an apprentice.
If the resources run out and you do something excessively, then making too many of it just makes it a bad and repetitive thing that is not optimal. too many bottom level items that can't be made into something better. Like if you could make wood furniture for decoration, but also use them for profit or quests that take it away as an order, or combine them to more valuable items later./

Paradoxal_1 · 2022-04-02 22:30:59

Spoonwood wrote:

Paradoxal_1 wrote:
Surprise eve! Your dry deep well is now a diesel well. Skipping right over needing piles of tires, all in eve's lifetime.
We talked about this a while back in some post. I never knew a town to skip the newcomen stage on bigserver2 since the spring update. I could have missed it, sure.

Well.... I am sorry to burst your bubble, but you can still add a pump valve to a dry deep well. Try er out if your a non believer. That's what I do when I am not sure what to believe.

LonelyNeptune · 2022-04-05 00:27:22

Skipping Newcomen happens all the time.

Coconut Fruit · 2022-04-07 06:37:04

jasonrohrer wrote:

There's a lingering question here, which is: should we make OHOL into a game that people want to play a lot, if that means making it less like it's supposed to be, and more like a bunch of other games that already exist?

Obvious answer, no offense. I love this game, not the art.

forman · 2022-06-08 00:07:56

I was here

forman · 2022-10-07 09:23:39

I'm kind of surprised that jason replied to this
And hasn't replied to anything since

One Hour One Life Forums

#26 2022-04-01 22:08:22

Re: How To Make the Diesel Mining Pick Get Used More

#27 2022-04-02 01:46:50

Re: How To Make the Diesel Mining Pick Get Used More

#28 2022-04-02 02:03:48

Re: How To Make the Diesel Mining Pick Get Used More

#29 2022-04-02 14:18:05

Re: How To Make the Diesel Mining Pick Get Used More

#30 2022-04-02 22:30:59

Re: How To Make the Diesel Mining Pick Get Used More

#31 2022-04-05 00:27:22

Re: How To Make the Diesel Mining Pick Get Used More

#32 2022-04-07 06:37:04

Re: How To Make the Diesel Mining Pick Get Used More

#33 2022-06-08 00:07:56

Re: How To Make the Diesel Mining Pick Get Used More

#34 2022-10-07 09:23:39

Re: How To Make the Diesel Mining Pick Get Used More

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