a multiplayer game of parenting and civilization building
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UPDATE:
FIX: /leader crash --> always send player data (please test)
FIX: Ai check if too close to animal while trying to kill for crafting
FIX: send out of range if player is not leader (should fix persons standing around that do nothing)
FIX: Send map chunk fix needed to display biome.
AI: lot more crafting of basic clothing (needs testing)
AI: going to mother has higher priority if hungry
AI: autoStopFollow if age 6 reached
AI: AIS are now marked with X in ending of family name
AI: AgingFactorAiBornToHuman 2 ==> 1.5
AI: dont get stuck if dropping an item on a pile while picking up baby
AI: crafting --> some minor optimizations with sharp Stone etc not dropping at start of crafting
NEWCOMMAND: ?SEASON or SEASON? => Display season text (which season and how strong)
EASEOFUSE: Allow baby pickup from dist 1.5 instead of 1
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Update:
Display: temperature hint only if enough damaged
AI: check min pickup age for crafting using bow
AI: consider more close food
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Im thinking about implementing it that way:
- each floor / wall has a heat value that comes from the biome plus season temperature
- the more insulation the floor has the more it stays close to 0.5 temperature
- with each timestep the floor / wall tiles exchange temperature with the tiles next to it while considering the insulation of wallsFor example if you open a door the room would not get hot / cold at once but over time the room would cool off.
The bigger the room the more temperature leaking you would have though not having 100% wall / tiles insulation, so no artificial limit.If it is performant enough, i could use the same mechanism to calculate temperature on any given tile.
The idea is then to change the biome if the tile gets too hot / cold over time simulating climate change / ice ages.I would say the difficulty / time to implement it is medium so should be ok.
General im thinking about how to handle the temperature.
The idea is to have more realistic temperature mechanics, so in theory very bad temperature could kill you over time.
The problem is players are not used to it.
Also it could be too annoying that you are forced to leave a cold biome in the winter (if you dont use enough clothing / heat and once implemented buildings).Currently if it is too cold / hot you lose hit points and gain exhaustion. Both slows you down to at max 50% if you are close death.
This might be irritating for players, especially if they are used to ignore temperature at all.
So the question is which mechanics can be used to make temperature more meaningful / realistic while on the same time give the players a good experience.
For sure better messages could help if a player is slowly dying through temperature.
Maybe instead of having a slow killing through temperature it would better to use something like (heat)strokes that give you a clear understanding that something is really going wrong. These strokes would stay for lets say 15 secs and come once in a while if you have bad temperature. They could limit speed, hinder eating or doing stuff.Any ideas?
Jason doesn't understand how to reward people and why. His values all all over the place. As you remember, the base game was mostly 'don't do this'. Like 90% of mechanics are about not doing things, even accidentally you can do permanent errors. I guess his childhood was rough. He is still weird tho, I get that he had so many rules he enjoys breaking them in certain areas but in his online persona he has kind of weird OCD.
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I don't think it makes any sense to write complex stuff when the outcomes aren't really different. And if they are, it might require meticulous management which might be annoying for some. I guess people would enjoy more mechanics when it's well done but not too many pointless modifiers for the same thing. Ohol is just food and heat, no hp, no stamina no nothing, and heat is kind of food too.
Same with iron and water, everything converts to it and they kind of convert to each other. That just makes it a bad system since it's bottom and top level resource so the bottom changes the lategame (wasting water hits back later) and the top changes the bottom (too much high tech makes life too easy). It's as fun as turning the lights on and off.
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Well, technically you could calc the average insulation where walls count more than floors, then the average temperature would be the material of the house, the original biome(not sure on this) and the season combined. The heating up and cooling down could be a set value in perfect conditions.
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But the issue there is the management. Right now in OHOL you could make a 1x5 room and stay on perfect temp WITH a fire. that's 5 sideway wallsx2, 2x1 vertical and 4 corners. too much material for such a small place. The bigger the room the less walls needed as central tiles don't need walls. And the shape that has the most central tiles is the square. So if it isn't square it's wasting materials, also some heat bonus. But the other issue is that needs a fire, and needs to tend to the fire. 15 firewood per hour, regardless of size.
And a fire outside is just 0.40 or something then what? it's still a good bonus with no effort. Also you stand still so quite hard to work and enjoy a bonus.
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That being said the only legit bonus I could imagine in a room is perfect temp without clothes. Upsides? work in a good environment regardless of outside weather conditions. Downside? limited space.
Now really who does want to micromanage the size and shape of the room and all those details for 0.1 heat? like you do a compost cycle and make a bit more pies and same deal.
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I think it should be a different way of thinking, instead of you making a bunch of plans and arrangements to make it perfect temp, it could be a central heating, like a chimney and a fireplace built in wall. This should be more effective than a normal fire, or last longer. Instead of fixed heat, it would be perfect heat, but last less for bigger rooms. It could work with charcoal since that is 3 units, so can be measured better. So for example 6x6 rooms was Jasons plan. That is 36 tiles, so a firewood would last 6 minutes for 36 tiles, so 1 minute for 6 tiles. That's 50% better than a fire outside. So if a room is smaller you could heat it faster and last longer or if it's bigger, more charcoal would be needed. A firewood should also give 4 kindling (in yah a log can be split in 4 bricks then each can be cut into kindling). So 4 kindling is 4 charcoal, 12 piece for heating 36 tiles to 6 min. that's 1 piece 3 tiles for 6 min. You could fill up the fireplace and it would go for a while, creating perfect temp indoors.
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If other bonuses come to play there could be some good mechanics, not to heat, but to make rooms useful.
would be interesting if you could handle it as a group zone, not sure how performant would be with many.
could be just type A, B , C , D and the rulesets would be same for similar rooms. no reason to treat anything under 3x3 as a room. but no reason to make difference between 3x4 and 4x3 and 3x3+2 for example. But a 7x7 could give extra bonuses for the extra material used. It was working in ONI, like a bed and a decoration object without any machine (lights maybe) makes it a bedroom, bedrooms gave sleep bonus, faster energy refill. OFC it's harder to give bonuses to rpg humans than controlled ai workers.
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Other reason to make rooms could be tech gates, like a machine only works indoors. Not sure if time based actions could be good, I can see it work if it's not a do or die. Like spend 10 seconds near a table to earn a research point and at 10 you get a blueprint. It doesn't need to be everything a blueprint either just a branch of tech.
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once I had an idea, with stamina bar, you would have a permanent bar and a temporary. permanent would be your maximum, maybe it could be even trained, the more you use it the less it takes to spend. a boost option could help do jobs faster but exhaust you. boosting while exhausted would trim some of the top limit down then you would need healthcare/resting/comfort activities to fix. It could be 4 different colors. Green on top: usable stamina, yellow: exhaustion after doing activities too long, red: extensive exhaustion permanently damaging you stamina, and harder fixes. Then a grey part that's the difference of current and maximum. So for example you start on 30 stamina and each time you deplete it, you gain 1 stamina. it could go up to 100, but you could also block out your top limit by overworking yourself. So asking for help, resting would be not only RPG but reasonable strategic steps. Restoring yellow bar with some foods would give foods a different stat to improve. Red would be harder, maybe just heavy resting could remove the penaties occurred by overusing stamina.
Beds could refill stamina, but nobody likes to stand in place, so instead of you sleeping (too long, it could still be like 20-30 sec doing nothing), the bed would be 'charging up' and you visiting the bed would take the charge, like a battery transfer. One bed would belong to one person, you would need to claim for life just like a home marker. You could upgrade beds for better stats. It could also be a tent that you place somewhere then later upgrade, it could act as a personal stash too, holding private item that others can't touch.
https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=7986 livestock pens 4.0
https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=4411 maxi guide
Playing OHOL optimally is like cosplaying a cactus: stand still and don't waste the water.
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Did a complete temperature rework:
- Bad Temperature over time affects now halve as much as good temperature
- River / Water affect twice as much and ignores clothing protection
- Clothing Insulation reduces only bad temperature affect per second by up to 10X (Already 2X with a simple straw hat)
- You have a natural heat resistance which is reduced with wearing cloths with a higher then 25% insulation value
- Wearing cloths with less then 75% insulation increases your heat resistance
- Wearing cloths warms you up to at max plus 0.2 heat (can increase also if net negative)
- Wearing cloths cloths with less then 50% insulation reduces heat by at max 0.2 (reduces only if net positive)
- Different people color heat shift is halved (Loved: Ginger 0.4 White 0.5 Brown 0.6 Black 0.7)
- Green and Yellow Biomes are slightly less cold and river is more cold
So with full insulation you can run 20X time outside then spending on warming up / cooling down. The different temperature per people color is also halved, so people of different color have it now easier to live together. Green and yellow biome is now little bit more warm, river more cold.
With river now cooling faster and natural heat resistance you could spent 10X time in heat then to cool down. (2X River 2X Good temperature 2.5% Natural heat protection).
UPDATE:
- Season length is now 7.5 min instead of 5 but snow biome spreads only with halve speed
Last edited by Arcurus (2022-06-10 15:57:13)
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@pein thx for your suggestions!
Yea heating a room with fire that auto balances temperature and needs more / less wood sounds interesting.
Beds Kamin usw sounds nice, but would need client change.
Currently im thinking about the following boni for indoor:
- Walls / tiles block bad temperature from outside
- Stuff decays less fast inside
- Wild animals wont come that easy inside to make mess
- A heat source like fire auto balances temperature inside / need more / less wood
- Warm Rooms can block spread of snow
- Suff does not spawn / regrow on tiles (Already implemented)
- Doors can protect against attackers
- Walls / Doors can be reinforced to hold longer against attacks
Open Questions:
- What to do with Ginger, Black etc loving different temperatures? Does the heat source heat what the owner of the heat source likes?
Last edited by Arcurus (2022-06-10 18:14:48)
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Generally I would avoid races being anything more than a character trait. Having race become a focus was the death of ohol and left a sour taste in the mouth of most community members. I would highly suggest avoding that.
If you want some type of class structure where there are benefits or deficits to different classes, I suggest making that a choice at the beginning of each life. Or something that can be chosen or changed by interacting with a specific object or waystone. Not something grounded in the color of people's skin.
I suggest a neutral class that everyone is born with. No major bonuses and no major deficits. Then certain classes that can be chosen later in life depending on playstyle. It would be beneficial to have the option to change classes through life to allow people to experiment and explore different playstyles they like or dont like.
These are just suggestions. Simply, it will be easier to just keep everything neutral. But if you wish to have a level of diversity I suggest focusing it in a direction similar to this rather than the way jason has gone about it. I know it would be a lot of work, but if you're married to the idea of class mechanics. This, in my opinion, is the most palatable way to go about it.
Great work on everything and I'm so proud of the OpenLife team bringing this project to life. You've put in so much work Arcurus and this is awesome to see!
Last edited by Eve Troll (2022-06-11 05:27:50)
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My opinion about races:
I think it would be best if there are no differences between the races, except how they look like.
But what i would love to see is genetics. If a black person and white person make a baby the baby will most likely be brown, but could also be more white or more black and would still carry the genes of both its parents.
This could also be extended to hair color, or eye shapes, bald genes and so on..
This would need some sort of father mechanism, not sure how to do that.
I know that this is not easy to do, i just wanted to say it.
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My opinion about races:
I think it would be best if there are no differences between the races, except how they look like.
But what i would love to see is genetics. If a black person and white person make a baby the baby will most likely be brown, but could also be more white or more black and would still carry the genes of both its parents.
This could also be extended to hair color, or eye shapes, bald genes and so on..
This would need some sort of father mechanism, not sure how to do that.
I know that this is not easy to do, i just wanted to say it.
Currently the genetics of a child (how it looks) depends on the mother and the biome which the mother is close on birth.
If close to another biome then the current skin color, the kid has a 30% chance to be born closer to the fitting color of this biome. So a kid of the ginger will never be brown but first white and white first brown and then with some generations brown to black. (later with considering also the father the kid of a ginger and black could be brown or white).
The main benefit is currently a slight better adaptation to the temperature of the loved biome. With the new update there are now plenty of ways to avoid big temperature mali, so it should not be that a big deal anymore.
The second benefit is the loved biome. This is currently inherited by skin color and from parents (mother / father).
A brown kid to a white mother and father loves the biome the same way like mother and father even if having a different color. So the kid could actually love two different biomes to 100%.
Later i want to implement that by being close to a certain biome you can also learn to love the biome, but its not implemented yet (only thing you can currently adapt to is malaria resistance).
Currently fathers do already exist. At Start of a new family there is a 50% chance if a Eve or Adam is born. The next player in this family will then be a Adam (to an Eve) or Eve (to an Adam).
As father is chosen whoever has the best fitness (being close physically and not too close related is important).
One a female has a partner it stays most likely with it.
Later i want to implement that you have more say in choosing or switching a partner.
Implementing genetics from father side is not a big deal, currently he is mainly considered for which biome the kid loves.
The goal is to have a as realistic as possible system in place without making it too complicated. So for sure no biome locked stuff like Jason implemented it but some biome boni.
Once implemented later you should be able to adapt during your live time to different biomes.
Thx Eve, Selalov and all the others for the feedback!
UPDATE:
Actually it would be trivial to allow to adapt to different temparatures. So skin color would then just indicate what you love at birth, but you could adapt during live time. If for example freezing enough you could become more cold resistent over time.
Last edited by Arcurus (2022-06-11 10:23:35)
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Impressions from the wild:
A poor AI kid wants to shoot with the bow, but VOG Jasonius says its too young for a bow!
Meeting in old age:
All stuff from me and the Ai is Ai made without any special teaching how to craft. Sadly it has no fire to make the bowl yet...
All clothing / Tools in the pictures are Ai made.
UPDATE:
Just saw a bug, the carrot should actually not grow in mountains ;/ I guess its because currently dropped carrots can regrow where dropped.
Last edited by Arcurus (2022-06-11 10:27:42)
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I saw AI shooting turkey but they left it unused so i skinned some and they use it for hat.
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I saw AI shooting turkey but they left it unused so i skinned some and they use it for hat.
Lol!
I guess you need to be fast to hide the turkey from the Ai if you want to actually cook it
Sometimes the Ai is really amazing.
Once i was talking with another human in the middle of nowhere then suddenly two Ai kids from me appeared at the same time. One was feeding me, while another one was feeding my fellow human exact at the same time.
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I fear the day AI starts taking stuff from containers nothing will be safe. i have to hide fire bow and skewers in basket or it will be turned into hunting equipment.
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I fear the day AI starts taking stuff from containers nothing will be safe. i have to hide fire bow and skewers in basket or it will be turned into hunting equipment.
Yea the AI loves to hunt stuff...
I wonder what is the right way to do. Since all in OHOL can be deconstructed to use as something else the question is how to tell to the Ai when not to deconstruct something.
Currently i can set the Ai to not use an specific transition, this could be used to not deconstruct fire bow but needed to be set manually for each transition.
With hiding stuff in the baskets is nice, but limits very much what the Ai can do. Maybe a policy that the Ai puts only out something if it puts it back again (in case of tool) or if there is plenty of it > 3. Not sure yet what is the right way.
For high tech stuff it might be possible to check if a transiion is lowering the tech of a certain item but some transitions would need to be manually white listed since needed.
Another way would be to give a way to say to the Ai not to use a certain container but how? By saying something close to it? Or even better dont use containers close to a certain item like close to an oven? Then you could store there stuff. But both would require players to find out / be thpught how to store items AI secure.
Or the other way round a positive list, the ai can only use containers close to certain items or on certain floors?
I think not to use a certain item even if possible might be the hardest thing to teach to the AI.
I remember the early days when the Ai wanted to cut down tables to get some boards out of it to make fire wood or something. Thx god there where items on it, so it failed, so remember to always keep stuff on top of a table...
Any ideas?
Last edited by Arcurus (2022-06-11 13:34:52)
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UPDATE:
Right now the server should be quite stable so building some villages over some days should be possible.
If you happen to find a bug, please don't make too much mess, so that we can see villages develop over time.
- Fix: allow pickup baby if light wound like clean snake bite
- Fix: !JAI command --> give player some extra seconds to catch up
-AI: use home as crafting start Location so that stuff is hopefully dropped more likely at home
-AI: if item failed to craft dont craft for 20 seconds --> should drastically reduce AI CPU use
-AI: hopefully better baby walking to mother and waiting and better mother pickup
-AI: and extra for jinbaili83: dont deconstruct Fire Bow Drill
Let me know if the Ai tries to deconstruct other valuable stuff too often...
@jinbaili83 With the sapling for hunting i cant help you for now, you need to fight this out with the AI
Last edited by Arcurus (2022-06-11 19:34:53)
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-AI: and extra for jinbaili83: dont deconstruct Fire Bow Drill
Is it don't deconstruct fire bow drill, or something like "don't deconstruct firebow drill if there exists only one within a certain number of tiles"?
Danish Clinch.
Longtime tutorial player.
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A lot of this makes for fascinating reading and interesting things to see.
I feel I should clarify that the time-based nature of games like OHOL hasn't seemed to fit me well lately. I have a personal concern that playing games like this make it more likely that I will rush through things. That could just be one of my worries, or could be more of a concern for me than other people.
I feel highly honored to see all of this.
Danish Clinch.
Longtime tutorial player.
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Is it don't deconstruct fire bow drill, or something like "don't deconstruct firebow drill if there exists only one within a certain number of tiles"?
lol yea. it is.
But just to forbid it was one line of code. Counting stuff in an efficient way to implement is on my list.
If there is more the Ai should not deconstruct, please just write here for now i simply deactivate the transition.
Later we can then look into it and count if there is enough.
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UPDATE:
AI: basic temperature handling --> needs further development
AI: FIX: dont undo last transition
AI: FIX: dont drop on pile where item was just taken
AI: try to cook stuff
AI: try to grow wheat and make a pie
Though the Ai had another bug since it was constantly putting wild carrots in a bowl and out again. But then i realized, this is actual a legit transition to make a carrot out of wild carrot, since VOG says so...
Seems like slowly Ai is working more in villages, saw a family taking over an town and bringing stuff there. But mostly its still hunting...
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If you want some type of class structure where there are benefits or deficits to different classes, I suggest making that a choice at the beginning of each life. Or something that can be chosen or changed by interacting with a specific object or waystone. Not something grounded in the color of people's skin.
I'm not sure I understand the mechanic. But, if I understand correctly, Gingers like temperature a bit cooler than whites, then browns, then blacks. Being a redhead in my younger hairs and less so these days, I seemed to get sunburn much more easily than anyone else I knew other than another redhead. Undoubtedly, people have different temperature preferences. Do those preferences have anything to do with the texture of their skin? I would think so.
Also, though there's differentiation between races here, how is it negative that gingers have a different temperature preference/optimization point? There exist different challenges for the characters from the get go with that. I don't see how different challenges is inherently negative. It isn't like some characters of some race couldn't reach their optimization point, or they were *deprived* of some ability, because of their race, is it?
If your point lies in that such may look bad, yea, sure. Anything which suggests any sort of connection between skin color and differences between people can become controversial. But, skin color is real. It has to correlate to some differences between people I would think, even if those correlations are weak. And if the differences are not negative, unlike suggesting that people of some race are inherently unable to do jobs, couldn't the problem lie with the people who cry racism over such? Why worry about those people if they are unable to even acknowledge that differentiating among people on skin color could be neutral or positive in some situations?
I mean black people can sunburn, I'm sure. I could be wrong, but I doubt it's as severe OR black people sunburning requires more sun exposure than hispanics or whites require in order to sunburn. Also, wouldn't it be negative if we didn't differentiate between redhead children and black children, and as a consequence redhead children sunburned more often and had more severe consequences than black children, since we treated everyone the same?
Danish Clinch.
Longtime tutorial player.
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Race mechanics were probably the worst thing to be introduced into the game. They look bad and reflect poorly on the game. There is nothing wrong with having everyone be equal and race just being a cosmetic element.
Not sure how having races being machanically different benefits the game. It certainly hasnt with the base game. Its only raised a lot eyebrows surrounding jason's views on race. It didnt used to matter and any mom could give birth to any race of baby. Those were better time.
Simply saying "no race restrictions/mechanics" would attract a lot of people to this project. Keeping those mechanics or a shadow of them would likely do the opposite.
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UPDATE:
FIX: lot of movement fixes if client is lagging behind the server. Still not perfect but should be lot better.
FIX: try drop player if held by other in reconnect since client cant handle
FIX: Allow use of bow at close range if it is not an moving animal (solves Ai trying to shoot Ghoose)
- Some more custom decay transitions for engines and high end tools (not perfect yet, but an engine wont suddenly fully disapear)
- Give summary of players achievements on age 58
- Give message about coins an how to use it ever 10 years
AI: dont destroy engine
AI: try to die in home at old age
AI: dont try to get water from nowhere with a bowl
AI: better handling of heat (Ai saves where it saw good warm or cold spots and even inherit them to kids)
AI: some more minor fixes
With this update movement lag is excpected to be much less. Also client schould not get stuck anymore after a position force. The Ai should now hopefully handle temperature lot better and try to die at home, so that you can loot it easier.
Have fun!
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Seems like its sometimes still lagging even if not on my local computer. So will look further in it the next days.
There i now a new community discord server called Open Life Reborn:
https://discord.gg/6KXrebJb
Feel very much welcome to report bugs suggestions or just talk with each other!
All the good,
Arcurus
@much thx on Jason for making OHOL open source
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I mean pigments in the skin adapting to heat or cold isn't a big of a stretch. but it's hard to make significant to be important enough but not more important than other things.
They made INL and it is fun but since some of the mechanics are just reductant, like having babies is actually annoying. the playerbase there is more hardcore since it needs a better rig and more knowledge and another payment. and the age is limiting you from doing things while you are born on the same place anyway. so all in all being a baby is bad, and starting as an adult is good.
so no reason fixing Jasons nightmare updates, just scrap it, the game can have a new identity with new mechanics that make sense, good reward and punishment systems that aren't too complex and just make sense.
@selalov734 the way Jasus did the characters, their head positions or hairs are completely different positions so they aren't interswappable, I tried it. I even made a working, decently looking character but it's a pin doing it. the eyes are also way too low resolution, 9 pixels are already huge, kind of the same as the biggest one, and so it can only be black and white.
yeah the engine limitations are crap, we could make nice looking mods that are easy to install but can't fix the crap ui and can't add stamina or hp then can't really make it any better.
https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=7986 livestock pens 4.0
https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=4411 maxi guide
Playing OHOL optimally is like cosplaying a cactus: stand still and don't waste the water.
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Sorry, by accident i just restarted the server while one was playing. Was backonline after few seconds. At least I used the chance to update...
UPDATE:
near complete rework of hungry work:
- hungry work creates now some heat
- you can only do it if not too much heat
- hungry work cost nearly halved
- iron mine have now like trees alternative outomes that give stones / flat stones on higher mines
- it counts now the hits on a tree or a mine, so even with bad luck at one point the tree / stump will be cut / removed
- all trees should now be hungry work even pines
- pies should now start with full food value after baking
- snow biome should now spread much less fast in winter
- reworked some server stuff to hopefully speed up server reaction time
AI
- should consider now more far away places
Have fun!
Last edited by Arcurus (2022-06-14 11:03:49)
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Finally thx to vicmortem and jinbaili83 we finally found out why the client got stuck. It waited for a feeding movement to happen... Thx a lot for the testers!
Its not 100% perfect yet but should be 10 times better!
UPDATE
FIX:
-better movement calculation since client got stuck when fed and waiting for movement of feeding player.
not 100% solved yet, but should be lot better... hopefully...
- Cannot make infinite pies out of one Bowl of Dough anymore
AI:
- tries to stay longer in good temperature
- does not wait if place does not help for temperature
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