MAJOR ISSUE: Home Well Should be Locked By SHOVEL

forman · 2023-06-30 13:56:03

The problem is simple:

1. Eve places stones and opens a well
2. Eve dies or gets lost or the site is lost
3. Eve's kid opens another well but the iron remains sunken

The Solution is simple:

Home well should only be locked (and the iron locked to the well) AFTER the well has been dug with a shovel
Suffice to say, if you've smithed as far as a shovel, the base is decided

This has happened to me a few times over the years and its really annoying

Tarr · 2023-06-30 14:19:04

I’m honestly in the camp that iron shouldn’t even be locked at this point. Food generational decay is going to kill any pseudo Eve that tries to move a family unless you’re moving a family from one town to another. I feel it would be healthier to allow players to produce premade towns closer to other families when range starts becoming an issue. This enables longer lasting families (if done correctly) and I’m all for more legit long lasting families on the leaderboard.

I feel like kerosene mining picks (what iron is eventually supposed to be balanced around) isn’t even being used because of a combination of looting and the highway system allowing players to both interact with other and snag up extra iron.

Keep iron sinking in the game for the purpose of not letting towns be all completely next to each other but allow multiple iron veins to be opened like earlier in the game.

QuirkySmirkyIan · 2023-06-30 14:26:31

Tarr wrote:

I feel like kerosene mining picks (what iron is eventually supposed to be balanced around) isn’t even being used because of a combination of looting and the highway system allowing players to both interact with other and snag up extra iron.

I enjoy using and making them. Made one the other day in the Dong family of which I was Eve.

Last edited by QuirkySmirkyIan (2023-06-30 14:26:42)

jasonrohrer · 2023-06-30 15:56:12

I think it's the way that it is b/c it gives two people a warning if they are building towns to close together at the same time... like, don't waste your time trying to set up camp here, b/c the well is already dry, b/c someone else is trying nearby.

But I will look at it more closely.

fug · 2023-06-30 19:21:45

Currently on wondibles map there's 1577 loose iron and 123 piles of some amount of iron sitting around.

While I don't think the goal of the thread is to make iron more annoying Forman is asking for iron unlocks not to be used up until the Eve or someone digs the first well since you can technically steal your moms iron if you focus on running somewhere else and setting up stones.

The only thing I find concerning is there's only a total of 9 kerosene mining rig (7 without tips, 2 with). If he goal is to use oil for iron things would probably need to be less forgiving. I'd almost go the other way though because currently the only way a family can move and get iron is to steal from dead towns or use the rig and the rig is way too expensive for an old family to move. Game mechanics will kill a family that moves without proper setup so unlocking extra iron would still have a cost (food to mine) and I don't feel like the extra added iron would really screw with anything.

forman · 2023-06-30 19:29:15

jasonrohrer wrote:

But I will look at it more closely.

My real issue is just not knowing.

If there was even a message when you place a round stone on a well site, indicating the iron won't open, that would be sufficient.
Or just prevent the stones from being placed if iron won't open.

But in the case of a lost eve, or lost well site, there is also no way to find it?
/leader only shows where the leader is, which may not be the well site.

Waystones also won't point to the home well.
A new command /home or /well could work.

Tarr wrote:

I’m honestly in the camp that iron shouldn’t even be locked at this point

It would be interesting to see how that would play out. I'd probably eve every life.
Though it would be difficult with the food demand in older families.

fug · 2023-06-30 19:46:46

I mean you would just kill your branch of the family once you got over gen like 10. I think it would be better to unlock iron in an band that isn't your own and either spend a few hours setting up farms or working with others to set up a location for other families to move in to. I'd really like to see another content family where they last long enough that it's actually a needed thing to move an old family closer to the others.

QuirkySmirkyIan · 2023-06-30 20:20:47

Just go back to random iron on the ground and occasional mines.

jasonrohrer · 2023-07-01 01:11:25

Just so we're on the same page... currently, once you place the whole ring of stones, that is what unlocks iron (and also dries up nearby natural springs).

And also, you only get to do this once per family in terms of unlocking iron.

So if a bad actor from your family wants to screw you over, they can run off and gather 10 stones (or whatever) and then run far enough away to unlock your family iron veins in a secret spot that you'll never find. This might not even mess up your well location that you eventually build, if they go far enough away so that they don't dry up your spring.

So you will blindly dig your well there and then discover later that you don't unlock iron after all.

The suggestion is to wait for the digging of the well, which requires a shovel, before either of these effects kick in (the unlocking of iron or the drying of nearby springs).

However... don't you need iron to make the shovel in the first place?

I think the ring unlocks iron specifically SO you can make the shovel with the bit of surface iron that is unlocked.

The point here is that there's not just an infinite amount of iron on the map that you can just walk around and harvest. This is important for a few reasons.

1. It is an infinite map, after all, which means infinite iron. Infinite is a lot. (and by that I mean almost infinite, or infinite in practice). This undercuts any advanced mining things (why spend kero to get iron if you can just walk around and get iron?), and makes metal items not very precious.

2. If you depend on iron just laying around to bootstrap... like you need to find at least one "loose iron" to make the shovel.... what happens when a griefer runs around the map collecting all the lose iron and hiding it?

Right now, a griefer can't do this, b/c they can only unlock one set of iron veins and steal one set of loosened iron from them. They can't run around the map and gather all the low-tier iron. It's protected and saved for future families that will come along.

fug · 2023-07-01 01:34:49

Foreman wants shovel to prevent the rogue baby from leaving Eve and making their own well site/iron veins. Jason please do not be silly, in a world where there is 1600 loose iron it is incredibly difficult to hide all of the iron.

I can't speak for anyone else but I know for a fact that I've hijacked Eves iron to put a town in a more desirable spot for what I seek in a town location - e.g. I want a big snow biome I can build in. Depending on what Eve values (picking spot vs early children) having a rogue child kind of sucks. I'm sure I'm not the only person out there who hijacks eves like this either.

The only time a troll could potentially hide all the iron is during a server reset with an apocalypse attached and even then there's likely to be 5-6 Eves on server reset. I guess maybe if we're thinking years out when the game isn't being supported it could be problematic. Either way, I don't think it matters but allowing more iron to open allows the people who want "fresh" ohol an option to at least try to make a new town vs allowing the people who want to work on the old towns an option too.

forman · 2023-07-01 03:06:32

jasonrohrer wrote:

However... don't you need iron to make the shovel in the first place?

That is a good point.

It can still be implemented if the iron does not become 'loose' until the (first) well is opened with a shovel.
This will mean less loose iron to start but I don't think that really matters much.

A message when placing stones on a well site, or a command to locate the family well site is as good a fix.

What I found frustrating was that I usually go for a forge then bowls/plates and farm before even placing any stones.
Then, later find out that the iron is locked. Drat.

Today we then realized that we couldn't even find where the iron was if we did intend to go back.
So we were effectively dead.

jasonrohrer wrote:

So if a bad actor from your family wants to screw you over

It is griefable but, as I mentioned, gen1 families also just get lost/split up sometimes. Or noob eves place stones in bad areas.
I'm pretty sure I've actually seen noob eves complete stone rings where there was no iron.

Getting that first shovel made is actually quite difficult hence a more reliable location for the loose iron.

fug wrote:

Foreman wants shovel to prevent the rogue baby from leaving Eve and making their own well site/iron veins.

Yes but just as important is preventing noob eves from opening the iron in a bad spot.
I think new players tend to have high scores and as a result frequently spawn as eve.

Where to open a well is probably the most important decision for a family.
At very least you should have to smith a shovel before making that permanent determination.

Last edited by forman (2023-07-01 03:08:25)

forman · 2023-07-01 03:30:42

jasonrohrer wrote:

1. It is an infinite map, after all, which means infinite iron. Infinite is a lot. (and by that I mean almost infinite, or infinite in practice). This undercuts any advanced mining things (why spend kero to get iron if you can just walk around and get iron?), and makes metal items not very precious.

I was just thinking about this specifically.
It would still be balanced if, say, muddy iron veins could be mined all over the map.

Only they cost exponentially... maybe 3-4 times as much food per mining pick hit.
Or if you could use the newcomen engine to mine the muddy vein but it costs a bucket of water each time.

The issue I see is that people often don't want to start new towns because it's hard.
When they are forced to do so, as eve, very few can do it correctly so it just becomes mayhem and then often fails.

If iron was always available all it would allow experienced players to start new towns in a more lasting, intentional way.

Last edited by forman (2023-07-01 03:33:26)

CatX · 2023-07-01 07:57:16

It sounds good to get a well marker if you place a stone but another well / well ring already exists. We usually don't get lost anyway since we can use /leader to find our way home, or wait for someone to have a baby. A well pointer wouldn't change much, except let the early families find their well.

As for the well being in a bad spot, what if the code opens a sunken iron spot somewhere on the grid if there is no iron east or west? And if there are no iron spots at all, perhaps this well could simply not count as the family well, just a random well.

forman · 2023-07-01 13:11:16

CatX wrote:

except let the early families find their well.

The greater problem here is that the eve/starting process is complicated and easily screwed up, especially for new players.
The score system also does not reliably track player skill, so we have a lot of noob eves that don't know what to do (or just can't survive)
Many experienced players probably SID a lot and have some the lowest scores (myself included)

fug wrote:

there is 1600 loose iron it is incredibly difficult to hide all of the iron.

Yeah, the gas vent blocking thing was a unique situation. It would be very difficult to grab all the iron.
If most of it had been stripped, it would just be one more thing you have to look for before setting up.
1 iron for a hammer, 1 iron for a shovel.

jasonrohrer wrote:

They can't run around the map and gather all the low-tier iron.

I mean, the code is already tracking 'first well state'.
If the family is in 'first well state', and the vein is already stripped, just trigger it to spit out more iron anyways?

Spoonwood · 2023-07-01 17:23:53

jasonrohrer wrote:

Just so we're on the same page... currently, once you place the whole ring of stones, that is what unlocks iron (and also dries up nearby natural springs).

My recollection is that it used to be that the drying up of nearby natural springs didn't happen until the well got dug. Onetech confirms that this still holds by showing a dry natural spring on the well page: https://onetech.info/662-Shallow-Well-f … 40-160-160 . The ready well site suggests that a natural spring *with 9 stones* will get tapped out.

Most natural springs in the 160 radius don't have any stones when a ready well site gets made, so most natural springs do not get dried up by a ready well site.

jasonrohrer wrote:

However... don't you need iron to make the shovel in the first place?

Most players are in close enough proximity to old towns that they could go get a shovel or make one from iron in the old town. I can't tell about forman's intended context exactly, but in the context of bad actors, nope, they don't need iron to make a shovel to dig up a well. The just need a shovel, which doesn't require them to make anything.

jasonrohrer wrote:

1. It is an infinite map, after all, which means infinite iron. Infinite is a lot. (and by that I mean almost infinite, or infinite in practice). This undercuts any advanced mining things (why spend kero to get iron if you can just walk around and get iron?), and makes metal items not very precious.

It's a finite map and always has been. There is no process by which more map gets generated ad infinitum. Just because something you perceive as large, that does not make that something "infinite". With regard to "infinite in practice", there exists a finite amount of time to get things, so, again the map is finite. Or "finite in practice".

jasonrohrer wrote:

2. If you depend on iron just laying around to bootstrap... like you need to find at least one "loose iron" to make the shovel.... what happens when a griefer runs around the map collecting all the lose iron and hiding it?
Right now, a griefer can't do this, b/c they can only unlock one set of iron veins and steal one set of loosened iron from them. They can't run around the map and gather all the low-tier iron.

Destructive players can take iron from veins which are not theirs of their own family in addition to those of their family. Thus, they can potentially steal from more than one set of loosened iron veins.

jasonrohrer wrote:

The point here is that there's not just an infinite amount of iron on the map that you can just walk around and harvest.

The map is not infinite. It never has been that way. The same goes for iron. There is no "infinite in practice", because "in practice" there's also some sort of time constraint given by the game. What resources can get used in principle also falls under time constraints. Time is not infinite and would not be for players even if they had no time limit imposed by the game.

The old system, when iron was loose on the ground during the Rift AND BEFORE AND AFTER THE RIFT ALSO, did not have an infinite amount of iron that could get harvested. The current system does not have an infinite amount of iron.

Also, all maps are finite, because they exist within space. The amount of iron within any sort of map, given that iron takes up space (which it does) and there's a finite amount of iron within one unit of space, also will necessarily be finite, by existing within space. So, for any conceivable map that could get implemented in any computer game with iron, there won't exist an infinite amount of iron.

Therefore, the point that "there's not just an infinite amount of iron on the map", gets satisfied, because it is a computer game. It would hold true for all alternative iron ideas also.

Consequently also, "advanced mining things", can't get undercut by a "infinite amount of iron" in a computer game, because "infinite amount of iron" isn't possible as something existing in order to undercut "advanced mining things".

CatX · 2023-07-08 13:41:49

Spoonwood does have a point. Getting iron takes effort, and our time is limited. There may be thousands of iron piles around, but it will take time to find them and bring them to our current location.

As long as family lines keep requiring a more varied diet, making iron more available shouldn't break the game. Maybe having more iron nearby would inspire more people to try out smithing and engine making.

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#1 2023-06-30 13:56:03

MAJOR ISSUE: Home Well Should be Locked By SHOVEL

#2 2023-06-30 14:19:04

Re: MAJOR ISSUE: Home Well Should be Locked By SHOVEL

#3 2023-06-30 14:26:31

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#4 2023-06-30 15:56:12

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#5 2023-06-30 19:21:45

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#6 2023-06-30 19:29:15

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#7 2023-06-30 19:46:46

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#8 2023-06-30 20:20:47

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#9 2023-07-01 01:11:25

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#10 2023-07-01 01:34:49

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#11 2023-07-01 03:06:32

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#12 2023-07-01 03:30:42

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#13 2023-07-01 07:57:16

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#15 2023-07-01 17:23:53

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