Game is dying

Uncle Gus · 2018-04-27 01:05:59

Also, the whole reason why that discord that was able to be screenshot and used in a "meme" was because it actually happened in the first place. The developer of the game was in the discord channel discussing ideas about his own game with the players themselves. He was considering adding RNG as it was a very simple solution to a problem with the game engine. It would have been a piece of cake to do; I know because I did it myself. But did he go ahead and do it? No. He spoke to his players first, he weighed up the decision and decided not to do it. It was AFTER this that the blatantly false "meme" was created. I pointed out at the time that it was wrong, but was told it was funny, so what harm can it do? Seeing it used in this way in this thread leading to people saying things like:

Honestly after reading that Discord conversation, he is completely out of touch

shows that it's not just a harmless joke.

Xuhybrid · 2018-04-27 01:09:19

breezeknight wrote:

games are made for gamers but not every game is made for every gamer
& games in development often change the gameplay significantly

What you're saying is, Jason is making a game for some gamers, some people who are not already playing his game. He's not making a game for the people currently playing and enjoying the game. He does not want the gamers who are playing his game, and is actively trying to get them to stop playing, so that he can magically find the other gamers that want to play his tedious chore. Sounds like a solid game plan. Can't see anything wrong with that lol.

Last edited by Xuhybrid (2018-04-27 01:09:48)

Eve-rlastingGamer · 2018-04-27 01:12:12

jord1990 wrote:

Drakulon wrote:
palisade thanks for posting this images, i also want to see the game succeed, i spent 20$ for this.
Jason is saying he poured his life into this game the last week and how much he is doing for us.
But he is not working on charity organization and this game is not free to play.
I am sure he gained ALOT of money by doing this game.
The people who spent this money were expecting something from it.
If this game would be free to play he would receive much less hate.
Its very difficult for me to feel sorry for his rich ass
Lol rich ass? you get that hes been working for 3 years on the game right, and with the amount of hours he puts in its not like hes making 1000 dollars for every hour of work.

First, let me say that I don't care if Jason has hit it rich with his game or not. He's putting in the hours and, if you work like that, then you should be paid. End of story. Like it or not, he is doing one that he had promised to do. Weekly updates. That's something that everyone should respect, their view on the updates notwithstanding. This isn't a small task that he's placed on his shoulders, after all.

That being said, I'm sure the true problem is just that it's become too difficult to achieve much of anything. There's too many new players, and too many things that need replaced. The actual problem lies within carrots. No longer can we go out and gather wild seed from the desert. Not only that, but the wild carrot only seeds one seed once per plant. So we must seed them ourselves, which depletes the soil.

In order to expand in any way, a fence must be built. Then sheep placed into the fence. Berries need to be planted along with the carrots to feed the sheep. Shovels need to be crafted to get the fertilizer. On and on and on... Fact of the matter is, by the time it even gets to the point that the sheep are actually in the fence, the soil has run out. There are places where soil is plentiful, and it can give you hope.

For a second.

Then the babies come and you realize that even just the two of them was too much for your farm to handle. Because everyone's naked, the weather is too cold, and you're pretty sure that one is a troll even though you have to way to prove it.

Do I blame Jason for this?

I don't. The decay allows new options and new skills. It makes available new jobs to do. Yes, I hate the respawn time it takes for resources. Yes I hate that the carrots only produce one seed one time. But is that honestly his fault?

Okay, so maybe it is. But it's also because I can't keep up. At all.

My original desire was to build roads connecting one town to another. Setting up trading routes. Creating a 'school' where new players could go as children to learn how to bake, smith, and craft. I wanted to participate in a game that actually advanced as a culture, not just a village/town/city. True civilization!

I'm not angry it won't happen. I am disappointed though... But I received this game as a gift, so I can't complain about the money spent.

And I'm sure Jason is doing his best, so I also can't complain about that.

Basically, I'm disappointed; but there's nothing to do about it but move on.

Xuhybrid wrote:

breezeknight wrote:
games are made for gamers but not every game is made for every gamer
& games in development often change the gameplay significantly
What you're saying is, Jason is making a game for some gamers, some people who are not already playing his game. He's not making a game for the people currently playing and enjoying the game. He does not want the gamers who are playing his game, and is actively trying to get them to stop playing, so that he can magically find the other gamers that want to play his tedious chore. Sounds like a solid game plan. Can't see anything wrong with that lol.

Is this a serious thought or a SNL skit?

Last edited by Eve-rlastingGamer (2018-04-27 01:13:42)

Xuhybrid · 2018-04-27 01:17:28

Lily wrote:

I am inclined to give Jason a chance, since he does usually fix the stuff he breaks. He put in the apocalypse and it was too crazy but then he did take it out. The decay was crazy for some items, like baskets falling apart within 30 minutes, and he changed it to an hour instead.
I think the problem is that we are basically alpha testers and testing out the stuff he puts into game live, so there are many issues. A lot of people didn't buy the game thinking they were alpha testers.

Here's a thought, if we all bought the game as alpha testers, which i accept, then why is valid criticism being ignored and rejected? Jason's ego is telling him the content he added is perfect and flawless. That he worked so hard for us and anyone who doesn't like it is wrong. Isn't that childish?

jasonrohrer · 2018-04-27 01:19:22

The problem that I have here is that many player complaints come from a place of misinformation.

Immediately after the update, people said, "There are no villages! See, the decay update ruined everything!" But the reality was that the servers were crashing. The lack of villages had nothing to do with decay, but instead was due to the crashes causing everyone to start from scratch ever 30 minutes or so.

Here's a few things I don't understand:

1. Almost all of the time-based decay is currently set to 2+ full lifetimes. You make clothes, you wear them your whole life, your grand children and great grandchildren wear them. Then some stranger in the distant future finds that they wear out. The walls crack in 5 lifetimes. If you make these things, their decay will be someone else's problem.

2. Even the dreaded baskets take a full lifetime to decay. If you make a basket, you will never see it decay.

If it's tedious to make them in the first place (or if you are that future stranger who finds the previous generation's work wearing out, and must make new), then what exactly do you want to be doing with your life in the game? It's a game about making stuff.

3. All of the use-based tool breakages is currently set to 20 (or 40 for the ax). That's a lot of shorn sheep, or chiseled stone, or... whatever. Probably more than a lifetime of usage for everything but the hoe. Do you really want to never blacksmith again?

I was just born into the biggest, most advanced-looking village I've ever seen. Stone walls everywhere, multiple bell towers. How did they do that?

For those of you who have played 100s of hours and are "suddenly" finding the game to be tedious, there's also the chance that you are just getting bored at this point, and a worn-out basket didn't really ruin everything for you. I know that the game can get tedious over the long haul, and that's what I'm working to fix.

Yes, all of this stuff will be tweaked and tuned into the future. I'm tweaking and tuning it now.

But the rash "the game is ruined now" proclamations are getting a little old at this point. I've heard these same things, to greater or lesser degrees, week after week, whenever I changed things. Getting rid of infinite carrots eight weeks ago didn't ruin the game. Making stuff wear out last week didn't ruin the game.

I'd say the game is way better now than it has ever been in almost every measurable way.

If you don't believe me, the whole history is right there in github. Roll back the client and the server and data 8 weeks and see how "fun" it was back then. No bears, no desert, no gold, no dyed stuff, only two wild foods, no monuments, no horses, no baby names, no stone walls, no locks. Oh wait, even worse! Server lag at 40+ players, loads of bugs that are now fixed. There have been 22 released updates since launch.

Sometimes I feel like pushing a little "time machine" update just to give people a taste of what the game was like at launch....

Eve-rlastingGamer · 2018-04-27 01:35:21

jasonrohrer wrote:

The problem that I have here is that many player complaints come from a place of misinformation.
Immediately after the update, people said, "There are no villages! See, the decay update ruined everything!" But the reality was that the servers were crashing. The lack of villages had nothing to do with decay, but instead was due to the crashes causing everyone to start from scratch ever 30 minutes or so.
Here's a few things I don't understand:
1. Almost all of the time-based decay is currently set to 2+ full lifetimes. You make clothes, you wear them your whole life, your grand children and great grandchildren wear them. Then some stranger in the distant future finds that they wear out. The walls crack in 5 lifetimes. If you make these things, their decay will be someone else's problem.
2. Even the dreaded baskets take a full lifetime to decay. If you make a basket, you will never see it decay.
If it's tedious to make them in the first place (or if you are that future stranger who finds the previous generation's work wearing out, and must make new), then what exactly do you want to be doing with your life in the game? It's a game about making stuff.
3. All of the use-based tool breakages is currently set to 20 (or 40 for the ax). That's a lot of shorn sheep, or chiseled stone, or... whatever. Probably more than a lifetime of usage for everything but the hoe. Do you really want to never blacksmith again?
I was just born into the biggest, most advanced-looking village I've ever seen. Stone walls everywhere, multiple bell towers. How did they do that?

For those of you who have played 100s of hours and are "suddenly" finding the game to be tedious, there's also the chance that you are just getting bored at this point, and a worn-out basket didn't really ruin everything for you. I know that the game can get tedious over the long haul, and that's what I'm working to fix.
Yes, all of this stuff will be tweaked and tuned into the future. I'm tweaking and tuning it now.

But the rash "the game is ruined now" proclamations are getting a little old at this point. I've heard these same things, to greater or lesser degrees, week after week, whenever I changed things. Getting rid of infinite carrots eight weeks ago didn't ruin the game. Making stuff wear out last week didn't ruin the game.
I'd say the game is way better now than it has ever been in almost every measurable way.
If you don't believe me, the whole history is right there in github. Roll back the client and the server and data 8 weeks and see how "fun" it was back then. No bears, no desert, no gold, no dyed stuff, only two wild foods, no monuments, no horses, no baby names, no stone walls, no locks.

Sometimes I feel like pushing a little "time machine" update just to give people a taste of what the game was like at launch....

Ah, ah, ah! Jason!

What about potatoes, Jason!?

QQ

Xuhybrid · 2018-04-27 01:41:57

The problem is, every update did do something wrong. Even if there was good content in every update, which there was, there was something inherently wrong. Like when you made soil finite, or when you let people reset all the servers 5 times, or when you broke everyones tools and storage without any way to repair it. I have been loving all the QOL changes to the game, but "new content" is released in an unfinished state, that isn't ready. That's why people complain about the game being broken or dying. If next week you release repairing in a good state, all of these issues are going to subside.

Also, i'm pretty sure the new Eve spawning isn't implemented yet because every single life i lead today was in a previously occupied area. I look forward to that patch.

jasonrohrer · 2018-04-27 01:59:10

Soil is still finite...

Yes, new Eve spawning isn't live yet. It will go live in about an hour.

It's not a "problem" for me to release an update that "breaks" things. That is what every update will do, every week, for the next two years. I will keep breaking the game over and over and over.

A multi-player game is like a leg that keeps healing crooked. You have to rebreak the leg to get it to heal straight. That process is painful but necessary. The "healing crooked" is players getting used to playing a broken game. Exploits calcify into reflexes. Players become skilled at playing the broken version, and they have to re-learn the fixed version.

A game where every tool lasts forever is ALREADY broken. Having things wear out is a (partial) fix. Letting your repair everything with one easy trick just lets you get back to your comfortable, previously broken state, where every tool effectively lasts forever, and no one needs to make tools in an established village anymore.

A game where the entire traversable area filled with endless civilizational clutter is already broken. Monoliths that clear the whole world (at least once), plus abandoned map culling, plus better Eve placement, is the fix.

The only constant in this game will be change.

And I'm not going to make cautious, timid changes. I'm going to make bold, sweeping changes.

Two years from now, you will barely recognize One Hour One Life. There probably won't even be carrots anymore by then....

jasonrohrer · 2018-04-27 02:03:16

Also, I'm not at all saying that I haven't made loads of mistakes.

I've made TONS of mistakes with this game. Obviously, monoliths weren't supposed to be buildable from scratch in 1.5 hours. Obviously, putting Eves in a R=1000 circle isn't going to work long-term. Obvious now.

I will keep making mistakes.

TrustyWay · 2018-04-27 02:03:26

It was fun before because the less we had the more we did. The updates were really great with names and crowns. We have villages and things were going on for the crown or killing a rival family, having husbands or wifes, trades in others villages, baby stealing, raids, huge raids were going on too, drama between players, jokes were told.

Now there still is everything of that but highly reduce and focus on the survival. But we already have toons of survival games, while a civilization focused game was very interesting. The ''nothing more to do'' is a misconception of reality. At the moment we have nothing to do, such as before in the game. Even less with decay, or you could say you do something if you like making clothes every life.

Last edited by TrustyWay (2018-04-27 02:09:17)

jasonrohrer · 2018-04-27 02:18:12

My intent was never to make a roleplaying game where you get to make up what you want to do in the game and pretend to be a king or whatever.

I'm trying to make a game where a village NEEDS a king for real, gameplay reasons, because leadership is the only way to succeed in the complex, multi-person task of keeping a village going.

You don't care for your baby in this game because you're roleplaying mother. You care for your baby because it's your only chance at a future after your own death.

If a village was going to war against another before, it was simply because it was an entertaining thing to do.

I want villages to go to war FOR REAL based on true gameplay reasons. Resource shortages, fertility issues, etc.

Where is trade in the game? That is what I want. Real trade, not role-playing trade. But there is no reason to trade if food is infinite and everything you make lasts forever.

I do have grand plans for this game, but it will take a lot of experimentation to get there. When we get there, if I can do it, it will be the most rich and complex and meaningful game you have ever played. But you won't be role playing. You won't need to.

Xuhybrid · 2018-04-27 02:19:47

jasonrohrer wrote:

Soil is still finite...
Yes, new Eve spawning isn't live yet. It will go live in about an hour.
It's not a "problem" for me to release an update that "breaks" things. That is what every update will do, every week, for the next two years. I will keep breaking the game over and over and over.
-snip-

Requiring a finite resource like worms to make compost made it finite. Am i under the wrong impression that sheep manure is infinite? Do they only poop once? If manure is infinite, then isn't compost and by extension soil, infinite?

Awesome news!

You are correct. What is a problem though, is releasing something intentionally broken, and not accepting player feedback that it is broken. I hope you see where i'm coming from.

jasonrohrer wrote:

Also, I'm not at all saying that I haven't made loads of mistakes.
I've made TONS of mistakes with this game. Obviously, monoliths weren't supposed to be buildable from scratch in 1.5 hours. Obviously, putting Eves in a R=1000 circle isn't going to work long-term. Obvious now.
I will keep making mistakes.

I was concerned after reading some of your responses, that your ego was holding you back. Thanks for confirming the opposite.

Last edited by Xuhybrid (2018-04-27 02:23:22)

MidgetMaker · 2018-04-27 02:24:37

jasonrohrer wrote:

My intent was never to make a roleplaying game where you get to make up what you want to do in the game and pretend to be a king or whatever.
I'm trying to make a game where a village NEEDS a king for real, gameplay reasons, because leadership is the only way to succeed in the complex, multi-person task of keeping a village going.
You don't care for your baby in this game because you're roleplaying mother. You care for your baby because it's your only chance at a future after your own death.
If a village was going to war against another before, it was simply because it was an entertaining thing to do.
I want villages to go to war FOR REAL based on true gameplay reasons. Resource shortages, fertility issues, etc.
Where is trade in the game? That is what I want. Real trade, not role-playing trade. But there is no reason to trade if food is infinite and everything you make lasts forever.
I do have grand plans for this game, but it will take a lot of experimentation to get there. When we get there, if I can do it, it will be the most rich and complex and meaningful game you have ever played. But you won't be role playing. You won't need to.

i really like how you're trying to design the game. This sounds amazing!

OxPower · 2018-04-27 02:35:32

https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewt … id=560&p=2

jasonrohrer wrote:

So I'm sitting in the editor about to add tick-marks on the well stanchion or at least water in the bucket to show you when the well is about to go dry.
But that's simply too simple of a thing to teach. "Don't take from the well unless you see water in the bucket." Or "count the tick marks and stop taking when you see 13."
That leaves no room for player creativity. It's just one more arbitrary rule to learn---a rule that I invent, not a rule that YOU invent.
What's the BEST way to track water in a well, given what you have available?
What about with two piles of stones? When you take from a well, you move one stone to the other pile. When all the stones are in the second pile, we stop and wait half a generation for the well to refill. Then someone is in charge of moving the stones back to indicate that the well is safe again.
Maybe there are other ways to track this or mark the well as "risky" to take from. Maybe building a cistern next to the well is the way to go. Maybe building a well next to a pond. However you do it, you need to teach it to your children so they can continue.
And that's culture!
And that's what I want to see emerge in the game.
"Our village had this really cool way of making sure the well never ran dry. In my next life, I tried to teach the method to my new village, but they wouldn't listen to me. They were doing it a different way."

jasonrohrer wrote:

Well, part of my thinking here is to create dramatic "turning point" moments in the life of a town, and also have people develop complex social systems around these things.
The thinking in this thread, about how to actually use wells, is what I'm after.
I don't want to make it foolproof, or easy to recover from a mistake with one weird trick. I want everything to be dangerous. I want heavy communication and coordination to be necessary every step of the way.
After all, draining the well over and over again and doing some trick to fix it repeatedly isn't interesting. That's just busy work.
Having one guy in the village who's in charge of the well IS interesting.
And the moment when he messes up and the well runs dry is a dramatic turning point for the town.
"Dag gummit, the well done gone dry! We're up a crick without a paddle now!"
That said, I may add some visual "tick marks" on the deep well... people could be marking the wood when they take water out.

Specifically:

jasonrohrer wrote:

After all, draining the well over and over again and doing some trick to fix it repeatedly isn't interesting. That's just busy work.
That leaves no room for player creativity. It's just one more arbitrary rule to learn---a rule that I invent, not a rule that YOU invent.

That's what this update felt like, more busy work and more arbitrary rules.
I'm not against decay as a concept, technically we've had decay since day one, it only took 24 hours.

I look forward to what the future brings.

Angel Carrillo · 2018-04-27 02:38:38

To all of those who say that the game is ruined, not all- didn't you realise that this game is in ALPHA? I knew what I was going to get. I came for the long-term enjoyment of a developing society, not a short-term instant gratification survival game like most. Realise that the game is in Alpha and FAR from finished, and you'll realise what I mean. To those who appreciate Jason Rohrer's work and are working through the temporary turmoil of the Alpha and Beta stages, good for you! We are players and testers. The game still has a long way to go. Have fun guys. I might even be your child once.

Joriom · 2018-04-27 03:12:17

jasonrohrer wrote:

1. Almost all of the time-based decay is currently set to 2+ full lifetimes. You make clothes, you wear them your whole life, your grand children and great grandchildren wear them. Then some stranger in the distant future finds that they wear out. The walls crack in 5 lifetimes. If you make these things, their decay will be someone else's problem.

There are several problems here.
First - the learning curve. Its very steep start. Watching streamers and looking at my kids who tell they're "new" - it takes them long hours to even get how to cut sapplings with sharp stone or how to start fire. We can't assume that every new person will know the recepies right away and know what items CAN be used on other items and which items SHOULD be experimented with.
I've seen people who stream OHOL few days in a row for few hours and they still don't know where leafs come from or the difference between tinder, pine neddles and kindling. "Thats just the same stuff, right?"
This ties nicely to the second point: People are lazy and play games for fun. Most people try to use what is already made there for them. They will try to experiment with stuff that is already there for them to the point where they forget about hunger and starve. Most of people think they contribute, but they burn more food and other resources then their job is worth.
Some want to lern, but current recepie hint system is bad. Bad to the point where people don't even TAB it. Ever. Because they starve to death before they check 47 recepies for sharp stone... And even if they manage to find usefull recepie, "how does tinder look like? where do I get it for the gods sake?" just to find out they need burning leaf before that...
Also - most people who complain about stuff decaying never made it themselves. They just used what others made (mostly) and now they cry they can't ride on someones back.
It was always like that. Minority of players who know how and want to do stuff carry majority of players "having fun screweing around". Minority feeds the majority. Minority gers frustrated because their hard work is taken away from them. Majority complains because they don't get more free stuff from minority. You won't change that easily and never for good. Thats just how PLAYERS of GAMES are.

jasonrohrer wrote:

Where is trade in the game? That is what I want. Real trade, not role-playing trade. But there is no reason to trade if food is infinite and everything you make lasts forever.

For trade you need to some kind of feeling of possesion, communication and most of the time - long time experiences/goals/relations.
- While possesion grows over time now - thanks to locks too, you still only get that feeling a bit for personal stuff. With just one hour its just an abstract concept in most cases. With exception of what you can have with you (which is VERY limited) there won't be private property if any way of protecting it (like house?) requires few lifetimes to complete.
- You can replace private with collective possesion. Still, in that case its almost impossible to track all the interactions, item locations, etc. It very fast becomes "its everyones so its noones".
- Communication... sux. To trade, you need to make people aware that you are willing to trade. You need to find someone who has what you want to trade for. And you need to find them and perform the trade itself. 99,99% of time you're better of getting it yourself. It will be easier and faster.
- If you want to speed up trade - you can have places designated for that. Markets. "Private" shops. Workshops. So you need to be aware of your souroundings. Currently we don't have easy way to signal to others what is what. Is that bakery, someones houre, or just random owen inside those walls? Or are you just griefing here placing owens everywhere? Having just one hour you have to get A LOT of information at once, remember it, use it. Our brains are not fit for that.
- Long term relationships are the same thing. Our brains can't hadle so many new people in such short ammount of time. Most of the time you remember few, but don't know much about them. If you take time to get to know people, you're basically counterproductive - eating more food than your work is worth. Most people play "everyone for himself" not because they don't care but because their time is so short they can't handle it all or it would just take to long for them to get to know others. Especially with such limited text chat.
- Long term goal. There are none currently. Other than vague idea of "progress". Most people try to find job for themselves, but if they commit to the job - they will neglects two previous points.

You can speed up live and modify some of "rules" of life but you won't "speed up" human brain and the ammount of information it can collect and use every hours. New information every time. Thats why so many people try to get reborn into the same place - so it eases out on them a bit. And thats also big idea about things like "gen 111" run or pre-apocalypse server11. The same place, you know who, where, what. You focus on actuall game, not exploration in panick.

jasonrohrer · 2018-04-27 03:19:44

Xuhybrid wrote:

Requiring a finite resource like worms to make compost made it finite. Am i under the wrong impression that sheep manure is infinite? Do they only poop once? If manure is infinite, then isn't compost and by extension soil, infinite?
Awesome news!

Whoa there, cowboy...

Is dung the only ingredient needed for compost?

And when is dung emitted? After a sheep eats...

Yes, compost no longer requires the exhaustible earthworm, but are the other ingredients infinite?

Actually, there's irony here, because there is still one backdoor path to infinite soil, but it uses the earthworm after all... a long, slow, and fragile path...

FeignedSanity · 2018-04-27 03:35:06

jasonrohrer wrote:

Actually, there's irony here, because there is still one backdoor path to infinite soil, but it uses the earthworm after all... a long, slow, and fragile path...

Wow, it never occurred to me to think like that. Normally I kill worms because they're a nuisance and more trouble than they're worth, but this makes me think of them in a new light. I can see a hypothetical scenario (albeit not practical) where worms could be the messiah of soil. Maybe it's just because I rarely ever get to the point where I'm living off of the 37 mutton pies I have in the store room, but things get boring for me at that point. Still, mind blown.

MidgetMaker · 2018-04-27 04:32:03

FeignedSanity wrote:

jasonrohrer wrote:
Actually, there's irony here, because there is still one backdoor path to infinite soil, but it uses the earthworm after all... a long, slow, and fragile path...
Wow, it never occurred to me to think like that. Normally I kill worms because they're a nuisance and more trouble than they're worth, but this makes me think of them in a new light. I can see a hypothetical scenario (albeit not practical) where worms could be the messiah of soil. Maybe it's just because I rarely ever get to the point where I'm living off of the 37 mutton pies I have in the store room, but things get boring for me at that point. Still, mind blown.

I thought worms just tilled soil like a hoe. Do they make new soil somehow?

Thorware · 2018-04-27 05:26:10

jasonrohrer wrote:

Whoa there, cowboy...
Is dung the only ingredient needed for compost?
And when is dung emitted? After a sheep eats...
Yes, compost no longer requires the exhaustible earthworm, but are the other ingredients infinite?
Actually, there's irony here, because there is still one backdoor path to infinite soil, but it uses the earthworm after all... a long, slow, and fragile path...

Maybe I'm missing something big here, but I can't solve this puzzle. Compost looks infinite to me.

Dung comes from feeding a lamb. You have to knife the parent to conserve space, fine, knife use is infinite. A basket to move bones, reeds are infinite. Shoveling dung does not count against shovel uses, infinite.

What about the lamb feeding? A bowl of berries and carrots. Bowl is infinite, wild berry bushes infinite, even domestic bushes are potentially infinite with refilling pond water, no problem. The carrot? Carrot seeds, water, soil, tilling... water is infinite and tilling is infinite with skewers from saplings that regrow every hour. Waiting an hour for tilling with a worm? That seems utterly insane and unnecessary. Each carrot seed can be considered to use 1/7th of a soil, each carrot 1/35th.

You simply add the dung to a watered compost pile to get composted soil. The compost pile comes from another helping of a berry/carrot bowl (another 1/35th of a soil), pouring it on straw. Straw comes from wheat and wheat requires one soil.

That should be all that's needed. That's two soil (rounded way up) to produce four soil. It appears infinite, and the worm seems useless. You seem so confident in your teaser that I think I must have missed something.

jasonrohrer · 2018-04-27 05:34:10

You're right!

I forgot about the saplings. That's an unintentional leak. Will fix.

Also, shovel is worn by moving dung... so there!

Uncle Gus · 2018-04-27 05:39:47

Yeah, I'm not getting it either. Soil found in the wild is finite. Compost now requires a shovel of dung and doesn't even involve a worm at all. The only use for a worm is to turn hardened soil back into a tilled row, allowing you to plant more crops. Those crops are either berries, and the soil is forever consumed, or wheat, which also consumes the soil, or carrots, whose naturally occuring seeds are finite and whose domestic seeds dun dun dun, consume the soil.

So yeah, I'm totally not getting it either.

Uncle Gus · 2018-04-27 05:58:06

I know what it is. Fragile indeed.

FeignedSanity · 2018-04-27 06:05:55

MidgetMaker wrote:

FeignedSanity wrote:
jasonrohrer wrote:
Actually, there's irony here, because there is still one backdoor path to infinite soil, but it uses the earthworm after all... a long, slow, and fragile path...
Wow, it never occurred to me to think like that. Normally I kill worms because they're a nuisance and more trouble than they're worth, but this makes me think of them in a new light. I can see a hypothetical scenario (albeit not practical) where worms could be the messiah of soil. Maybe it's just because I rarely ever get to the point where I'm living off of the 37 mutton pies I have in the store room, but things get boring for me at that point. Still, mind blown.
I thought worms just tilled soil like a hoe. Do they make new soil somehow?

Nope you're right. For some reason my brain was making the connection that tilling the soil somehow replaced it... I should probably consider getting more sleep.

Edit: Now I remember, I was thinking about how tilling the soil is a finite process (excluding skewers). You could theoretically run out of sharp stones and iron.

Last edited by FeignedSanity (2018-04-27 06:09:50)

breezeknight · 2018-04-27 06:11:18

Glassius wrote:

...
ConfandibulumFlakes wrote:
It's stated right up front: the game's about cooperation and child-rearing.
Of course it is not I mean, it is, by the first time somebody raises you to adultthood. It sometimes happens you are raised by caring mother. I was talking to my kids 'I love u', as kid. I typed 'Mum' as fast as I could. Then I died, because all this caring-communication leaved no time to eat. Most caring persons are newbies without clothes.
I was succesful in OHOL only when I neglected communication, when everybody knew what to do and did not talk, like in sweat shop. Jason even aims in making it more sweat shop to give players challenge. There is less and less place for caring about others.
U know the games theory? Optimal strategy is when everybody communicates and they care about community. But evolutionary stable (in OHOL) is only to care about own business. Kids? Valuable only if they know mechanics and will contribute to society. Type Q or feed the snakes

that's why we need a symbolic language in OHOL
it takes too long to type & a baby, a very fragile state, needs badly better ways to communicate & be understood even by newbies

it is also the most arrogant way to expect from everybody interested in the game to know the cryptic typed messages like Q & even F
not everybody speaks english, not everybody is on discord, not everybody knows cryptic keywords
if you as player want this game to succeed then you have to make the culture welcoming for newbies, it's as simple as that
& this starts already with the most blatant offense - stop asking people in game if they are new !!!
care for newbies, not for your own pitiful survival for an hour, lol

Glassius wrote:

ConfandibulumFlakes wrote:
And if those are indeed the priorities of the designer, neglecting the necessity of in-game communication will be entirely the least successful way to play.
Of course it is not his aim. He wants to put there emotions and drama. Mostly about bad situation, but:
1. We don't care
2. If we care, we die. You say you care? You raise all your children? You don't eugenic boys? How succesful are your villages?
3. Go back to point 1.
There is clearly no game design. OHOL is a social experiment, not only because nobody know what strategies players take, but also because game designs depends very heavily on players suggestion. And we should be very careful what we want, because some of us lobbed for decay
...

to care doesn't mean to care always for everybody in the same way
the last couple of days i started to decide as mother how many kids & in the end adults can support the current state of the settlement & this means pretty much to care, to care not only for my own survival (which is a right everybody should keep) but for the survival of the first kids i am able to support as an adult & this means that i have consciously as mother to decide to neglect those kids which are a surplus & yes, let's face it, this is infanticide ! it still is great care for those who will have to survive, it is also a big responsibility

those decisions are tough, if we really care but this is how things worked for millions of years in human societies, this is not some fantasy of a dark mind but pure reality
we live IRL by now in the luxury to decide how many kids we want to have as parents or a single parent, when we get them, we have in progressive societies options for adoption, options to even get pregnant as a single mother without sexual intercourse, but all this is luxury of an extremely complex & progressed society & not the normality of the beginning of human societies as we play it atm in OHOL

the only thing i am missing about those tough & yes, dramatic decisions is a family tree, a family tree added to the game will make every player spawned & surving as female aware of the own decendants & it will make every player as Eva enticed to care for the own lineages
a family tree will make OHOL to a game where players care for what is happening with the own decendants & who the own ancestors are at least for the moment of that one hour of life

& btw
OHOL is an experiment not because it is not a propper game but because it touches gaming genres which are not popular, yet ! namely life simulations

One Hour One Life Forums

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