Coordinates - possible to hide them?

Balzabukas · 2018-04-28 15:12:39

I am posting here knowing that it will be extremely unpopular with a lot of people and newer people might not go to Reddit at all (link to upvote/downvote: Reddit page )

My suggestion (if that is even possible) not allow 3rd party tools to get coordinates out of the client files, and here is why:

1. It gets a lot of people to suicide, or run off to their city when the coordinates are close.
2. It also gets a lot of more experienced players rarely playing in newer towns.
3. It encourages "my town my rules" type of game play, which is not intended (you leave legacy, make legacy somewhere else, or spawn back to a place).

What this would achieve:
1. Huge decrease in "personal towns" - where anyone doing something not liked by the "owner(s)" is killed, called noob, etc..
2. More of the intended game play - finding a town should be a blessing thing.
3. More experienced players actually building together with new players.

Now, because we are still able to get the coordinates, I will assume that it is either impossible to hide them, or another reason Jason leaves them there, which is beyond my comprehension (yes, a lot of people would rant about it, but does not seem like the real reason)

I agree that spawning mechanics helps to do most of the things above already, but most of the time, it is still easy to get back to the location you want.

Last edited by Balzabukas (2018-04-28 15:15:40)

kubassa · 2018-04-28 15:34:06

awe poor baby. you can do what ever you like..... Don't worry what someone else wants to do in the game ffs. Play your own game. If people don't want to stay with you too bad. It's an open source game easy to create a cheat/hack it if the coords are hidden. Then you can just make the cheat/hack and still have coords. Get over it and play the game the way you think it's intended and stop trying to force others to play the way YOU want them to.

P.S.
The spawn right now are 2000 - 10000+ tiles away from each other and chances of you making it back to "your town", it is not going to happen.

Last edited by kubassa (2018-04-28 15:39:20)

akoopatroop · 2018-04-28 15:41:27

There is no programmatic way to hide the coordinates. There are ways to make it require more advanced programming to get at, but there's absolutely no way of guaranteeing they're hidden.

breezeknight · 2018-04-28 15:53:29

getting the coordinates is cheating, cheating destroys every game, it's not modding
if a feature gives you an advantage over other players in a MP then it's cheating

Jason should ban this & similar stuff from official servers
players who want to use that can use private servers

kubassa · 2018-04-28 16:00:43

breezeknight wrote:

getting the coordinates is cheating, cheating destroys every game, it's not modding
if a feature gives you an advantage over other players in a MP then it's cheating
Jason should ban this & similar stuff from official servers
players who want to use that can use private servers

#1 I think it is funny you think you speak for Jason.

#2 It is an open source game. (It's not cheating when anyone can read the source files)

#3 It doesn't give any advantage of anything. You can try to run to an area you have been before (big fucking deal).

#4 You are a baby child crying over no one wanting to stay with you in the game. Get over it.

Last edited by kubassa (2018-04-28 16:02:01)

Balzabukas · 2018-04-28 16:17:24

kubassa wrote:

breezeknight wrote:
getting the coordinates is cheating, cheating destroys every game, it's not modding
if a feature gives you an advantage over other players in a MP then it's cheating
Jason should ban this & similar stuff from official servers
players who want to use that can use private servers
#1 I think it is funny you think you speak for Jason.
#2 It is an open source game. (It's not cheating when anyone can read the source files)
#3 It doesn't give any advantage of anything. You can try to run to an area you have been before (big fucking deal).
#4 You are a baby child crying over no one wanting to stay with you in the game. Get over it.

Here is why:
1-3 (Mentioned)
Reason number 4, it would make people like kubassa less likely to meet in game.

Last edited by Balzabukas (2018-04-28 16:18:25)

jasonrohrer · 2018-04-28 16:18:10

Well, it's true that this is not intended. You're supposed to be lost in the wilderness.

While I would never "encrypt" the coordinates or do any kind of week security around them....

It is perhaps true that the client doesn't NEED their own coordinates.

There's something interesting here..... every client could see 0,0 as the spot where they were born, and all other coordinates in the messages that they receive could be relative to this.

The client is actually kinda doing this already itself, because the graphics card uses 32-bit floats for positions, and therefore starts having position rounding errors when the coordinates get up into the millions. So, when you spawn in the world, if you spawn at a location very far from 0,0, the client locally translates all coordinates relative to your spawn location to keep the graphics card happy.

So... why not do this translation step on the server?

The problem is that many of the server side messages are formatted and compressed once and then sent to everyone who needs them. The messages are not customized per client that receives them.

So a substantial server rewrite would be needed. But it would be possible for sure!

If I implemented that, you'd receive your birth position as 0,0, and all maps and other messages would be relative to that instead of absolute.

The only "hack" remaining would be one that allows you to easily find your way back to where you were born (or other such navigation without setting a home marker).

Some sophisticated tool COULD do map analysis to find absolute coordinates, though.

breezeknight · 2018-04-28 16:26:00

kubassa wrote:

breezeknight wrote:
getting the coordinates is cheating, cheating destroys every game, it's not modding
if a feature gives you an advantage over other players in a MP then it's cheating
Jason should ban this & similar stuff from official servers
players who want to use that can use private servers
#1 I think it is funny you think you speak for Jason.
#2 It is an open source game. (It's not cheating when anyone can read the source files)
#3 It doesn't give any advantage of anything. You can try to run to an area you have been before (big fucking deal).
#4 You are a baby child crying over no one wanting to stay with you in the game. Get over it.

i don't have any power over what Jason does or doesn't, maybe you don't understand how argumentation works

would it be intended then it would be normal gameplay (this is argumentation)

if it's "no big fucking deal", then just don't do it & why are you even defend it then, lol

insults won't get you nowhere

kubassa · 2018-04-28 16:26:33

jasonrohrer wrote:

Some sophisticated tool COULD do map analysis to find absolute coordinates, though.

Some basic knollage of coding with open source it is very easy to do anything. Aimbots, ESP, and coords.

'sophisticated' coding is needed to crack, blizzard and valve anti cheats. Being honest in saying if you did mask the coords I would write a code that would give me absolute. Just saying. Not trying to push any buttons. I like finding "My Town" and working on it if it is possible.

As stated in my previous post your spawns have changed and there is a small chance of running back to your town unless it happened to be on an eve spawn and you are lucky enough to get that exact spawn again.

Balzabukas · 2018-04-28 16:31:23

jasonrohrer wrote:

Well, it's true that this is not intended. You're supposed to be lost in the wilderness.
While I would never "encrypt" the coordinates or do any kind of week security around them....
It is perhaps true that the client doesn't NEED their own coordinates.

There's something interesting here..... every client could see 0,0 as the spot where they were born, and all other coordinates in the messages that they receive could be relative to this.
The client is actually kinda doing this already itself, because the graphics card uses 32-bit floats for positions, and therefore starts having position rounding errors when the coordinates get up into the millions. So, when you spawn in the world, if you spawn at a location very far from 0,0, the client locally translates all coordinates relative to your spawn location to keep the graphics card happy.
So... why not do this translation step on the server?

The problem is that many of the server side messages are formatted and compressed once and then sent to everyone who needs them. The messages are not customized per client that receives them.
So a substantial server rewrite would be needed. But it would be possible for sure!
If I implemented that, you'd receive your birth position as 0,0, and all maps and other messages would be relative to that instead of absolute.
The only "hack" remaining would be one that allows you to easily find your way back to where you were born (or other such navigation without setting a home marker).
Some sophisticated tool COULD do map analysis to find absolute coordinates, though.

I am extremely glad that you see this as an issue, and already have an idea in mind to overcome it.

As someone who always uses coordinates, other "hack" I see to the one you mentioned is building something close to bell tower (within 1000 distance), and then have relative coordinates from that. But that takes way too much time to do (walking to the bell tower/ another well distinguishable area), also need to find the bell tower itself (which right now is too easy with coordinates). Maybe others have any other ideas how this could be abused, but it seems that the solution would work for most of the population using the coordinates.

All I hope that you will have time in the foreseeable future to work on it, now the new population of players almost never meet more experienced players in a friendly way (you are active on discord and can see how everyone blames everything on new players, rather than trying to improve their way of play to suit new players, which denying coordinates might achieve).

kubassa · 2018-04-28 16:34:34

jasonrohrer wrote:

Some sophisticated tool COULD do map analysis to find absolute coordinates, though.

Some basic knollage of coding with open source it is very easy to do anything. Aimbots, ESP, and coords.

'sophisticated' coding is needed to crack, blizzard and valve anti cheats. Being honest in saying if you did mask the coords I would write a code that would give me absolute. Just saying. Not trying to push any buttons. I like finding "My Town" and working on it if it is possible.

As stated in my previous post your spawns have changed and there is a small chance of running back to your town unless it happened to be on an eve spawn and you are lucky enough to get that exact spawn again.

breezeknight wrote:

if it's "no big fucking deal", then just don't do it & why are you even defend it then, lol insults won't get you nowhere

#1 It was not an insult at all. It is a FACT. When i read your post all I could hear was a bay crying. (Refer to the game for demo)

#2 I like to work on my Town. Get over yourself. Crying on the forums because people don't want to hang at your farm with you is silly and childish. Should Jason write code so there is an invisible boundary so you can't run pasted it, so you have to stay close to where you were born with the people you were born to? Just to make YOU happy?

Balzabukas · 2018-04-28 16:37:09

kubassa wrote:

jasonrohrer wrote:
Some sophisticated tool COULD do map analysis to find absolute coordinates, though.

Some basic knollage of coding with open source it is very easy to do anything. Aimbots, ESP, and coords.
'sophisticated' coding is needed to crack, blizzard and valve anti cheats. Being honest in saying if you did mask the coords I would write a code that would give me absolute. Just saying. Not trying to push any buttons. I like finding "My Town" and working on it if it is possible.
As stated in my previous post your spawns have changed and there is a small chance of running back to your town unless it happened to be on an eve spawn and you are lucky enough to get that exact spawn again.

Well with "basic coding" knowledge I could find bell tower and then put it as 0.0 and then the previous spawn as x.y, and do it all the time with spawns, but I would need a "distinguishable and find-able target," and only map the area as far as I go, relative to the distinguishable area. Every time I spawn i still would not be able myself to code a way to know what is this area relative to the "distinguishable area".

But I am sure someone without any monetary incentive would be able to code it, and share it... Most likely you.

Drakulon · 2018-04-28 16:38:08

I never used cords but i dont mind it at all that other people use them.

kubassa wrote:

Some basic knollage of coding with open source it is very easy to do anything. Aimbots, ESP, and coords.

kubassa pls i dont want to open another investigation thread because of you and your knollage

Last edited by Drakulon (2018-04-28 16:38:59)

kubassa · 2018-04-28 16:41:44

Drakulon wrote:

I never used cords but i dont mind it at all that other people use them.
kubassa wrote:
Some basic knollage of coding with open source it is very easy to do anything. Aimbots, ESP, and coords.
kubassa pls i dont want to open another investigation thread because of you and your knollage

LOL should I code an aimbot that will only get you from any place on the map? Heat seeking arrow.........

Last edited by kubassa (2018-04-28 16:43:34)

Drakulon · 2018-04-28 16:49:44

kubassa wrote:

LOL should I code an aimbot that will only get you from any place on the map? Heat seeking arrow.........

I would love to see that, but keep in mind that bot will also need to be able to survive on its on and craft or find bows an arrows, not an easy task.
Also what do you do about the killer cooldown? If the bot kills inside a village and other people see it, they might kill it.

kubassa · 2018-04-28 17:21:41

Drakulon wrote:

kubassa wrote:
LOL should I code an aimbot that will only get you from any place on the map? Heat seeking arrow.........
I would love to see that, but keep in mind that bot will also need to be able to survive on its on and craft or find bows an arrows, not an easy task.
Also what do you do about the killer cooldown? If the bot kills inside a village and other people see it, they might kill it.

I don't think you know what an aimbot is.........

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cu1aEe0Gtd4

It auto aims to people when you fire.
No I wouldn't waste my time coding one. What I am getting at is if I can code an injector that will bypass VACnet I am fairly confident I could figure out how to get absolute coords from the server in this game. May even be able to get IP's, usernames and information on where other players are. All depends on how secure Jason's work is.

I am also fairly certain Jason doesn't have the time or the money to create or hide coding like valve does. Maybe he does who knows....

Seems a bit much to do for a few people who use coords in this game. IMHO

P.S.
World of Warcraft even has plugins that give you coords. Blizzard does not care if you know your location. coords are not a hack or a cheat.

Last edited by kubassa (2018-04-28 17:32:23)

YAHG · 2018-04-28 17:40:30

What if there was a tech item that gave you coordinates. Compass and Azimuth?

If we are still moving towards robots with lasers like in trailer then being able to map the
world is FINE. AFAIK you have to induce magnetism in iron while it is still molten to line up
the dipoles to make it be magnetic after it sets.

kubassa · 2018-04-28 17:43:44

YAHG wrote:

What if there was a tech item that gave you coordinates. Compass and Azimuth?
If we are still moving towards robots with lasers like in trailer then being able to map the
world is FINE. AFAIK you have to induce magnetism in iron while it is still molten to line up
the dipoles to make it be magnetic after it sets.

I would still use a external way/plugin to get the coords.

YAHG · 2018-04-28 17:46:49

kubassa wrote:

YAHG wrote:
What if there was a tech item that gave you coordinates. Compass and Azimuth?
If we are still moving towards robots with lasers like in trailer then being able to map the
world is FINE. AFAIK you have to induce magnetism in iron while it is still molten to line up
the dipoles to make it be magnetic after it sets.
I would still use a external way/plugin to get the coords.

Doesn't matter people will wheat the fields hide the food and kill people with knives. You are not that important.

Potjeh · 2018-04-29 11:54:49

LOL, how exactly are you going to get global coordinates with an external tool? Please walk me through the algorithm, Mr Script Kiddy.

Last edited by Potjeh (2018-04-29 11:55:13)

KucheKlizma · 2018-04-29 12:26:29

Considering he mentioned VACnet I believe his plan is to go on h4x0r forums and beg for one, as I doubt he could even list a directory's contents on windows in command line.

kubassa · 2018-04-29 13:38:05

Potjeh wrote:

LOL, how exactly are you going to get global coordinates with an external tool? Please walk me through the algorithm, Mr Script Kiddy.

At present I use powershell. That is an external program. Shows how smart you are. If he hides the coords you would still be able to use powershell but would have to code a walk arround of what was implemented. Extreme case I would just write a DLL hook that can inject anything I choose into the game. EZPZ.

KucheKlizma wrote:

Considering he mentioned VACnet I believe his plan is to go on h4x0r forums and beg for one, as I doubt he could even list a directory's contents on windows in command line.

I work for a major game studio if you must know and I have been coding physics engines for years son. Worked with Unreal, Source, Infinity, and some in house engines. As for begging in Haxzor forums I do not have to because I am one of the publishers of one of the injectors. Been cracking VAC for well over 10 years son.

Go! Bwah! · 2018-04-29 16:06:43

kubassa wrote:

If he hides the coords you would still be able to use powershell but would have to code a walk arround of what was implemented. Extreme case I would just write a DLL hook that can inject anything I choose into the game. EZPZ.

On the client side sure, but if the mapping between local (0, 0) and global (x, y) is stored on the server and the client basically only handles offsets, how do you propose to get your global coordinates (which is what you would need to find other towns etc.) without hacking the server?

kubassa · 2018-04-29 16:22:18

Go! Bwah! wrote:

kubassa wrote:
If he hides the coords you would still be able to use powershell but would have to code a walk arround of what was implemented. Extreme case I would just write a DLL hook that can inject anything I choose into the game. EZPZ.
On the client side sure, but if the mapping between local (0, 0) and global (x, y) is stored on the server and the client basically only handles offsets, how do you propose to get your global coordinates (which is what you would need to find other towns etc.) without hacking the server?

You seem to think it maters if it is stored server side when it does not. What you need to do is code a hook and inject into the dll and you can then manipulate all the data client side. In the case of VACnet you need to send the data back as if it was not manipulated or it will instantly VAC ban you. If you know what your doing you can send that data back without the server or anti cheat detecting what you have manipulated. Most of the hooks you are manipulating the data that is sent to you from the server. Player coords/hit boxes positions, health, yada yada yada. Wallhacks are completely undetectable because your manipulating the data sent client side. No way to catch by coding unless there is an intrusive scan anti cheat (which Vacnet does not have). Aimbots are much different because you are sending information back to the sever of where your shot is placed. When people get banned with VAC it is because many many many thousands of people are using the same cheat and the AI server VACnet uses will eventually start catching that manipulated data and ban all the users that it read sending that data.

If you use a hook/injector that only you yourself have you will never get caught. Some the pro players have been using cheats for many years that only they have access to. Last i heard from the hacker conference was one player paid over 60,000 USD for a cheat.

So if you think server side will save and or protect any data you are only fooling yourself. All encryption can be cracked if one was so inclined to do so.

Last edited by kubassa (2018-04-29 16:42:54)

Drakulon · 2018-04-29 17:35:39

kubassa its not about decryption. Imagine whenever you spawn, the field where you spawn will be 0,0 cords. The server knows the true cords, but it doesnt send it to you, it only sends cords to you that are relative to your spawn point 0,0. So you always get a different cord system whenever you spawn.
To break this you need get creative

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#1 2018-04-28 15:12:39

Coordinates - possible to hide them?

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Re: Coordinates - possible to hide them?

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