History of violence

Glassius · 2018-05-01 06:14:28

‘This is not a weapon. This is for killing people,’ he said.
‘Uh, most weapons are,’ said Inigo.
‘No, they’re not. They’re so you don’t have to kill people. They’re for . . . for having. For being seen. For warning. This isn’t one of those. It’s for hiding away until you bring it out and kill people in the dark.’
Vimes and Inigo in The Fifth Elephant

In Jason's topic about murders I put many ideas. It seemed just too many, so I want do split them into seperate topics and after discussion post them as suggestions on Reddit (or support already existing ones).

In every game I play I like immersion. I believe, adding real world mechanics wolud not only adress players like me, but also will create more complex world. More ways to achieve the same goal will make the game less tedious and force players to think about their choices. Now people are looking for meta and repeating the same steps every time.

The first topic is violence. Today the only way to hurt others are bows and knifes. It is a little counter-intuitive, as we are able to club seals, we have axes, there are rocks around, everybody got fists. But it could be stupid to kill a person with a single swift of short shaft. Even 2 swings seems stupid. This is why we need a basic combat system instead of killing system. I will explain how violence was popular among our ancestors, how it might look in the game and what results it will give.

History

There was once a tribe ruled by king Leakey. After his death Humphrey took the power, but brothers Charlie and Hugh didn't like it. They established a new tribe just South from the old one. The bloody war for dominance emerged between 2 groups. It lasted 4 years and ended with annihilation of Southerns.
It is a real story from Gombe Stream National Park. It describes chimpanzees watched by Jane Goodall, which started fight in 1971. While total war between apes is unusal, the aggresion between and in groups is rather common, often lethal. It was also common in our ancestors. Modern hunter gatherers are a bad study, because while maintaing old lifestyle, they have to obey new law from modern societies. For example, Maasai people had puberty ritual with killing lion. Before Brits they were killing other warriors. Precolumbian Amazonian tribes are believed to have violence death rate about 30%. In Germany, 30-years war is believed to result in death of half of population in certain areas. Even if they procreation rate will only cause sustainability, it results with 2% of population dying every year. WW II has this rate at 1,3%.

Mechanics

Therefore I think violence should be enabled since the beginning of the game, with rocks, fists, hatchets. This is how proposed combat system may look:
Every weapon after strike (with things like rocks being possible to throw) is giving insta decline in hunger gauge, while changing few others rectangles red. It is bleeding (also internal, bruises), resulting in quick decrease to remaining black rectangles.
OHOL Combat System
Eating should replenish rectangles at normal rules, however the new rectangles should remain red untill the hole bleeding meter is used (as seen with knife use, where bleeding meter is longer than the hole hunger gauge). This simple mechanics can be tweaked with few others
1. Stepping on rattlesnake instead of bleeding causing poisoning. Rectangles should be green (mortality rate for untreated red rattlesnake bites is only 25%, we should not be punished with instadeath by stepping on bastard hidden behind the tree after lag).
2. Because man IRL are better in fights than woman, males can have perma armor. Every time black rectangles are vanishing through fight, males are loosing one less. This way males would be more suitable for combat. Ingame societies would now care more about them as future protectors, because male characters will now have at least one advantage over woman. This is changing ingame choices: leave male kids in case to sustain village or raise a fighter to protect what was already built. Giving just one more hunger rectangle to males seemed strange, as woman (higher fat rate and less muscle rate with less calories consumption) are believed to survive starving longer.
3. Future update may include medicines and bandages, making game even more complex. This would also suit implementation of diseases and result in new necessary role: doctor. Also, overcrowded villages may be more affected by diseases.
4. Low hunger gauge may be resembled by moving speed. While injured people should run faster because of adrenaline kick, around 3-4 rectangles speed should be back normal, with 2-1 rectangles should be slow as child (crawling). It may even a have minus hunger gauge, where a person is just lying waiting for rescue. 10 minus rectangles may result in death, but for people not waste time, allow them to die on wish (press 'k' key to die or wait for rescue)
5. The same mechanics should apply to animals. The wolf behavior on bow would be the same, while bear can have massive health rate (animals are currently not eating). 3 arrows may still kill it, just not instantly.
6. Bleeding victims may leave behind blood marks. Let's track this wolf!
7. Add spears, one of the first handcrafted weapons. Allow us to hunt bears, wolfs, griefers with that Maybe rabbits, geese and... fish?
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Results

Usually griefer is stealing all weapons and starting the killing spree. Just like IRL massacres are done on unarmed citizens in gun free areas. Attacks on armed citizens are ending faster and with fewer casualties. Now an angry mob would be able to actually fight back the griefer. Because griefers, while very efficient today, are still a minority, combat system will be countering them. Enlisted tweakings would add more immersion, make game more complex and less tedious.

This is the end. The next essay is planned to be about sustainability. Not everything is running out, but it may happen.

Last edited by Glassius (2018-06-13 20:22:50)

Lum · 2018-05-01 09:39:51

Jason has stated the game won't include a combat system because he doesn't want it to become pvp.

TrustyWay · 2018-05-01 09:52:05

Medecine, heatlh recover, health points. I am sorry dude but this is bs. I have been killed only once since 2-3 weeks by a knife but still killed griefers. Fighting and griefing managing depend on your skill. Too bad you didn't spot the griefier because me I usually do.

A good griefer would have hide first all the medecines, bandages, knife and arrows (as always). Then he can start his rampage and kill everyone. With an huge advantage.

Even if knife doesn't one shoot the griefers, it still one shoot kids and middle age-old people. It will makes the griefier having even more advantages than before. I wont be able to oneshoot the dude but him can kill you with oneshoot.

And if the griefer has two try, it would be almost impossible to kill him...

Last edited by TrustyWay (2018-05-01 09:52:22)

Glassius · 2018-05-01 10:23:37

TrustyWay wrote:

Medecine, heatlh recover, health points. I am sorry dude but this is bs. I have been killed only once since 2-3 weeks by a knife but still killed griefers

All your points are true. Griefer may hide all medicines, bandages, knifes, arrows. But he cannot hide everything, as some tools are used and keeped in hands (shovels, adzes, shafts) and he cannot steal fists. A mob with regular tools should be able, with casualties, to fight back the griefer.

However, this is not the point of combat system and it was not thought to counter griefers. This is just a background to add more social interactions and complex behavior. There are no diseases in the game. There are (almost) no wounds. Only hunger. And near death of starvation character has the same physical output as fully feed one. As you can see, this in fact is not a combat system: this is a wound system. It allows to apply severe wounds from bear attack, poisoning from snake, diseases, lying helpless waiting for help. A village with shaman/doctor may try to prepare for such an event, an individual before going into forest may take to backpack a snake antidote. You, as a naked Eve, may find a fully clothed brave male hero lying helpless on minus bar hoping for rescue. And you can rescue him. Or smash him with nearby rock and steal all his equipment.

Wound system actually adds more drama and I think it will please many players. Nice ones (crafting medicines, helping wounded) and griefers.

EDIT

Lum wrote:

he doesn't want it to become pvp.

It already is pvp

Last edited by Glassius (2018-05-01 12:18:06)

YAHG · 2018-05-01 10:46:42

Lum wrote:

Jason has stated the game won't include a combat system because he doesn't want it to become pvp.

Game is multiplayer, you can kill other players...
That MAKES it pvp doesn't matter what he wants.

breezeknight · 2018-05-01 11:21:09

@Glassius
make a suggestion, i'll support it
https://www.reddit.com/r/OneLifeSuggestions/

in general i think the problems OHOL is facing are way deeper ingrained than combat machanics & gameplay options
but that's maybe for some other discussion

- - -

Last edited by breezeknight (2018-05-01 11:22:12)

Glassius · 2018-05-01 17:35:26

@breezeknight
https://www.reddit.com/r/OneLifeSuggest … ntswounds/

On the suggestion list there is already a topic about it, even with Jason participating there. While most of my suggestions were posted there (more violent tools, system of wounds/poisons/bleeding in place of instadeath or 2-hit death, medicines and first aid), reddit seems to be a bad place to discuss it (tracking is more common here, no cooldown on responses).

As Jason proved to implement things requested by many players, we must be vary: implementation of decay was little too strong. I think, this thread here is better to describe mechanics. It's sure, Jason will not implement stretches (travois), bandages, first aid, injections, X-Rays, all tools lethal, fist attacks, armors and so at once. Implementation of wounds should be flexible enough to be able to include all these cool features in future updates. We can start making list of must-have features you like. Just put ideas, I promise to organize them. My points
1. bleeding/wounds/poisoning in place of instadeath. It does not prohibit to die from particular strike. Just don't make it a first strike, or randomize damage output
2. More ways to hurt others: rocks, shafts, axes.
3. More ways to treat others: bandages, stretches (travois), medicines (psylocibe mushroom?), antidotes
4. Give male some superiority in dealing/managing physical damage
5. Implement crawling (slow speed) and lying helpless, waiting for rescue

I just want a kind of drama, where I run to tower bell with friend and I step on rattlesnake in the age of 54, just a few screens away from it. I wish, I will be dying slowly from poison, while there are antidoes in great world. I would say her "Leave me, there is no hope for me. But you! You, my friend, may still see the bell wonder! Go, just go! And remember, never *last gasp*

Last edited by Glassius (2018-05-01 17:36:13)

Anshin · 2018-05-01 18:24:30

Sounds a lot like:

https://youtu.be/2wXnOmXdQvI

Lum · 2018-05-01 22:40:03

YAHG wrote:

Lum wrote:
Jason has stated the game won't include a combat system because he doesn't want it to become pvp.
Game is multiplayer, you can kill other players...
That MAKES it pvp doesn't matter what he wants.

I meant PvP as in, you can fight, recover, duel each other, all that. It's not player versus player. It's player kills player. It's not a constant system of fighting, it's a one time event.

YAHG · 2018-05-02 04:24:31

Very well, then it isnt

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#1 2018-05-01 06:14:28