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Uncle Gus

Moderator

Registered: 2018-02-28

Posts: 567

10,000 years of human civilisation and we're all still mostly naked

Make clothes, people! Warm people eat less. The only way we will get bigger, more stable settlements is if everybody is clothed. This means farming milkweed on a large scale and trapping rabbits. This is more important than farming because you eat the rabbits anyway, so food isn't an issue.

xoomorg

Member

Registered: 2018-03-06

Posts: 73

Re: 10,000 years of human civilisation and we're all still mostly naked

If we want "bigger, more stable settlements" then I think taking control of the reproduction cycle is key:

https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=256

If babies are (usually) being spawned in one contained area then it's easier to provide them with clothing right away.  I'm a carrot farmer usually, and have seen attempts at milkweed farming overburden the local water supply, so I'm wary of large scale diversion of resources like that.  But I'm all for clothing.  We should just do a better job of centralizing it and recycling it, and not scattering it all over the world in tiny abandoned villages.

arbecas

Member

Registered: 2018-03-07

Posts: 2

Re: 10,000 years of human civilisation and we're all still mostly naked

People have trouble farming milkweed because they harvest it at the wrong time

Uncle Gus

Moderator

Registered: 2018-02-28

Posts: 567

Re: 10,000 years of human civilisation and we're all still mostly naked

Yeah, for sure. But even when people learn that, it's very rare to find a settlement with more than a handful of milkweeds about. I'm talking mass production, like 40 plots. It's useful for more than just clothes.

xoomorg

Member

Registered: 2018-03-06

Posts: 73

Re: 10,000 years of human civilisation and we're all still mostly naked

That sounds like a good specialized settlement.  I think a structure that has spawning happen in a central location and then feeds out to specialized villages in various directions would work best for advancing civilization, and would make for interesting gameplay (I could be a carrot farmer amongst other experienced carrot farmers, and not spend half my lifetime yelling at people for going near the seed carrots.)

uint128

Member

Registered: 2018-03-06

Posts: 2

Re: 10,000 years of human civilisation and we're all still mostly naked

The only times I was able to make clothes is when I ran away from my mom when I was 6, moved far away from any civilization, and found a spot with abundant milkweeds... New players always pick up every milkweed in sight.

I tried starting a milkweed farm a few times, most of the times I'm simply unable to find milkweed seed anywhere, and one time I planted 15 milkweeds, every one of them was picked when not fruiting...

Matok

Member

Registered: 2018-03-04

Posts: 66

Re: 10,000 years of human civilisation and we're all still mostly naked

A silly plant is the bottleneck holding civilization back.

Thing is, I believe there are people who are trying to harvest it correctly but are mistaking the flowering stage as the proper stage to pick it, instead of the fruiting stage. Had someone that I watched pick one right when it changed to flowering, and I told them no, only pick when it's fruiting. To which they replied 'I did'.

Yes, there's a name when you mouse over it, but honestly how many people are reading all of that constantly? I'm sure quite a few are mistaking the 'pink stuff' as fruit instead of flowers and are wiping out entire crops of milkweed plants.

I've been attempting to fill up a few baskets with milkweed seeds when I can, just so there's some around for others to jumpstart things again, but that creates another issue with soil getting used up.

And do clothes stay around forever or do they get lost if someone dies with them on their body and no one finds the grave before it decays away?

Norgg

Member

Registered: 2018-03-02

Posts: 67

Re: 10,000 years of human civilisation and we're all still mostly naked

I've seen milkweed frenzies destroy settlements. Enthusiastic farmers planting it all through the carrot fields because it's become so rare, then everyone starving to death while also picking it all at the wrong times.

Uncle Gus

Moderator

Registered: 2018-02-28

Posts: 567

Re: 10,000 years of human civilisation and we're all still mostly naked

Clothes are permanent. Having said that, I was testing on a local server and my PC crashed. When I started up again, there was no grave, and I lost my full kit.

You don't replace food with milkweed, that's just moronic. Set up a new farm.

evan.woods

Member

Registered: 2018-03-06

Posts: 21

Re: 10,000 years of human civilisation and we're all still mostly naked

Exactly. There are lots of abandoned settlements. Once you have your community's farm set up, send someone to an abandoned settlement with four empty baskets in a hand cart to retrieve some soil; do this multiple times, if needed.

I'm not a fan of far-flung villages; too much time and resources are spent getting back and forth. Move the soil someplace closer with access to water and a steady supply of your carrots/rabbits/whatever folks are eating these days. Send one person to be responsible for upkeep, and have someone move back and forth with a handcart, collecting stalks, strings, or rope, and exchanging carrots in return.

The hardest part, of course, is getting folks on board with the plan. It's not terribly sexy. And no one really wants to stand around tending milkweed and making sure folks don't pick it at the wrong time. But it has the potential to move us all forward.

The problem with the small settlement model is that it is not going to lift us out of the muck and clothe and feed any substantial number of us. We must do better.

xoomorg

Member

Registered: 2018-03-06

Posts: 73

Re: 10,000 years of human civilisation and we're all still mostly naked

Exactly. There are lots of abandoned settlements. Once you have your community's farm set up, send someone to an abandoned settlement with four empty baskets in a hand cart to retrieve some soil; do this multiple times, if needed.

I'm not a fan of far-flung villages; too much time and resources are spent getting back and forth. Move the soil someplace closer with access to water and a steady supply of your carrots/rabbits/whatever folks are eating these days. Send one person to be responsible for upkeep, and have someone move back and forth with a handcart, collecting stalks, strings, or rope, and exchanging carrots in return.

The hardest part, of course, is getting folks on board with the plan. It's not terribly sexy. And no one really wants to stand around tending milkweed and making sure folks don't pick it at the wrong time. But it has the potential to move us all forward.

The problem with the small settlement model is that it is not going to lift us out of the muck and clothe and feed any substantial number of us. We must do better.

Exactly... also. 

This is why I've been suggesting we centralize births by gathering females of mothering age in one location.  It stops people spawning in those far-out locations (except new Eves) and provides a natural center for a more urban society.  Newborns could be provided with clothes and a nursemaid and somebody to both teach them and direct them out into the larger world when they are old enough.  "The farmers have need of a man like you, go along the Western road and see the local steward" type stuff.  Or "Take this cart full of seed and soil and tools and revive an old village near the end of the Southern Pass."

evan.woods

Member

Registered: 2018-03-06

Posts: 21

Re: 10,000 years of human civilisation and we're all still mostly naked

This is why I've been suggesting we centralize births by gathering females of mothering age in one location.  It stops people spawning in those far-out locations (except new Eves) and provides a natural center for a more urban society.  Newborns could be provided with clothes and a nursemaid and somebody to both teach them and direct them out into the larger world when they are old enough.  "The farmers have need of a man like you, go along the Western road and see the local steward" type stuff.  Or "Take this cart full of seed and soil and tools and revive an old village near the end of the Southern Pass."

I like this. With steady fires, it would greatly reduce demand on food.

It effectively precludes half of the workforce from otherwise participating in the settlement's non-child-rearing work. I think a well-managed settlement's farms and hunting groups are capable of supporting a great many mouths without everyone's participating in farming or hunting. (Too many cooks, and all that.)

But: who will decide where folks go? We're approaching the need for an administrative class at this point; that's awesome. But it is difficult to see how to get it going and keep it going.

xoomorg

Member

Registered: 2018-03-06

Posts: 73

Re: 10,000 years of human civilisation and we're all still mostly naked

evan.woods, I think the child-rearing class IS the administrative class.  They stay in one place, nursing children (and more importantly -- controlling the spawn point for new babies) but also that's ideal for talking to each other.  They'd be centralized (in virtue of that's where everybody starts off) and they'll already need the worker/wanderer class to bring them supplies like food and wood for fire and nice new clothes for themselves and the babies, etc.  Sound like a ruling class, to me.  Just one that has to never leave the Palace (until they're old.)

Tebe

Member

Registered: 2018-03-03

Posts: 65

Re: 10,000 years of human civilisation and we're all still mostly naked

A building with wood floors and walls is a great permanent way to keep children warm. If there's a building in the settlement, there's no need to burn through so much firewood to tend the children - the swamps will become empty if we keep the fire going round the clock.

Build a small adobe house for the sole purpose of raising the children. Near the food stores so the mothers can grab a quick bite when necessary.

hawklander

Member

Registered: 2018-03-07

Posts: 4

Re: 10,000 years of human civilisation and we're all still mostly naked

I spend most of my time exploring and trying to find good places to start villages and i come across a lot of failed villages and i think that its is a combination of lack of water and milkweed that holds back the civ.

The lack of water leads to a lack of food in a settlement destroying the population there halting any progress that previous players have been built there.
I think that if we change the priority when making a new settlement from food to water we will see more progress in regards to tec as settlements will not die out as easy making it easier for players to build upon the progress already there. other materials such a clay,soil,reeds and fur can brought to the settlement  for farming and building up the tech level.

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                   Builder, Explorer, Farmer and was eaten by a bear.

xoomorg

Member

Registered: 2018-03-06

Posts: 73

Re: 10,000 years of human civilisation and we're all still mostly naked

Tebe I was thinking NOT (particularly) near any other kind of settlement, so as to give those other settlements sufficient room to grow large and establish their own identity.  Food carts would be brought to the Capitol / Cradle on a regular basis, to provide food.  And then baskets of food brought directly to the Birth Mothers, by helpers.

Also, if we REALLY want to conserve food while raising children, we just need the Birth Mothers to hold the children through adolescence.  It only takes food to pick up a child, not to hold them -- but holding them keeps the child's food meter full, while not draining anything from the mother.

johnnyburninator

Member

Registered: 2018-03-05

Posts: 23

Re: 10,000 years of human civilisation and we're all still mostly naked

This thread is really interesting. Specialization is becoming beneficial. A focus on food and smithing, or food and clothing with trade between to share.

And the idea that the men go off to work because that's all they are good for is a really interesting emergent result of the mechanics. Playing last night, I asked, "Needs?" and they said, "Don't need a man." So I set off for the hills.

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"The world is only this way because we made it so in our ignorance." -Uncle Gus

secondchild

Member

Registered: 2018-03-04

Posts: 17

Re: 10,000 years of human civilisation and we're all still mostly naked

I've been thinking way too much about this. Especially in the context of building a society when you know there is a huge range in players' skill levels.

This is probably just wishful thinking, but I'd love to have a nursery where someone shuttles babies to after they're born. It would have one main entrance room, with a stock of clothing and a main mama to guide people along. This main room would have two sides, one for totally new players, and one for returning players, and adjacent to it, would be demonstrations relevant to each.

For the new players, as they grew up, they could watch someone demonstrating and explaining basic crafting and game mechanics. When they're able to pick things up, they could move on to another room that has baskets of things they can play around with... kinda like a Montessori school. There'd be another person here whose job is to impart wisdom. Adjacent to this room would be someone constantly showing the important rules: milkweed and family animals come to mind.

For returning players, they'd get a demo of the latest tech/discovery/technique (right now, stuff like letting whole fields go to seed, or metal working, etc). Then there would be people in subsequent rooms showing how to do various advanced stuff: crafts, techniques, etc.

This would require a ton of infrastructure to support, but you can start with a single room and scale up. First room is the nursery, second is the adjacent rooms with demos. Actually... doesn't even have to be a room. You could start a small farm (3:4 seed/feed ratio) next to a house so that babies growing up inside could see.

xoomorg

Member

Registered: 2018-03-06

Posts: 73

Re: 10,000 years of human civilisation and we're all still mostly naked

Secondchild, if females of breeding age all gather in one location -- the nursery -- then there's no need for shuttling.  If people bring them food (in carts from a healthy farm not far away) then they don't need to waste time / hunger picking up babies and putting them down over and over.  They can just stand there, holding their baby (which doesn't drain any additional food, once picked up) and talking to them.  And each other.

Then, once they're past the age where they spawn babies near them, they can move on to other tasks.

Every female would be "stuck" having to be a mother for a while... but that's basically just hanging out in a chat room, discussing things, and teaching.  And the reward is that after you've done your duty being a mother, you move on to be an Elder Matriarch who runs society.

xoomorg

Member

Registered: 2018-03-06

Posts: 73

Re: 10,000 years of human civilisation and we're all still mostly naked

I envision a central location where ALL females of breeding age hang out, holding babies and chatting.  This central location is surrounded by specialized villages -- at least one of which is a farm.  The farm regularly sends carts full of food, to the Capitol/Cradle.  The Birth Mothers hold their child the entire time, to conserve food.  (It does not seem to be common knowledge that holding a baby doesn't use any extra food, but keeps the baby's hunger meter full constantly.  It's PICKING UP a baby that uses the mother's hunger pips, so having a single mother who switches between multiple babies is actually the WORST possible setup -- yet it's the most common situation, with one female nursing all the babies.)

When female babies come of age, they are first tasked with supporting the Birth Mothers, maybe by bringing baskets of food to them from the carts outside -- or even feeding them.  Young girls could grab carrots or berries or whatnot, and feed the Birth Mothers so they don't have to put their baby down to eat (and incur the cost of picking them back up.)

Once females are of breeding age, they hang out in the nursery, nursing children and chatting.  Once they are Elder Matriarchs, they are free to roam about the world (inspecting the other villages to see how things are going, reporting back to Capitol / Cradle, or hanging out working on more advanced projects as technology advances, etc.)

Male children are raised by the Birth Mothers, taught the basics (if necessary) and then when they are of age, they are send out from the Capitol / Cradle to one of the outlying villages, depending on need and interest of the player.

secondchild

Member

Registered: 2018-03-04

Posts: 17

Re: 10,000 years of human civilisation and we're all still mostly naked

Secondchild, if females of breeding age all gather in one location -- the nursery -- then there's no need for shuttling.  If people bring them food (in carts from a healthy farm not far away) then they don't need to waste time / hunger picking up babies and putting them down over and over.  They can just stand there, holding their baby (which doesn't drain any additional food, once picked up) and talking to them.  And each other.

Yeah, that's a much more economical use of resources, it just creates short gap from when a girl is able to interact with things to when she starts having babies. Not really enough time to do anything major. Oh, maybe they're the ones teaching the demos and running the nursery, so they're close at hand when they start having kids of their own?

Part of my rationale for runners to fetch babies was to deal with the fact that some women will want to go do extended projects and not hang around in a nursery. But maybe letting those ones go would be a check on population growth.

Last edited by secondchild (2018-03-07 17:59:58)

xoomorg

Member

Registered: 2018-03-06

Posts: 73

Re: 10,000 years of human civilisation and we're all still mostly naked

Secondchild, if females of breeding age all gather in one location -- the nursery -- then there's no need for shuttling.  If people bring them food (in carts from a healthy farm not far away) then they don't need to waste time / hunger picking up babies and putting them down over and over.  They can just stand there, holding their baby (which doesn't drain any additional food, once picked up) and talking to them.  And each other.

Yeah, that's a much more economical use of resources, it just creates short gap from when a girl is able to interact with things to when she starts having babies. Not really enough time to do anything major. Oh, maybe they're the ones teaching the demos and running the nursery, so they're close at hand when they start having kids of their own?

Part of my rationale for runners to fetch babies was to deal with the fact that some women will want to go do extended projects and not hang around in a nursery. But maybe letting those ones go would be a check on population growth.

Yeah absolutely, the point isn't to imprison mothers, it's to control the spawn point for new babies.  There will always be Wild Eves as well, spawning outside (though likely near) the Cradle.  If they're experienced players and support the plan, they would make a beeline for the Cradle upon spawning as a new Wild Eve.

I think the fact that the Cradle would be an excellent place to chat would make it appealing.  Several times, when I've had a baby I've stopped all other work (letting my older children carry on) and just carried the baby (to conserve food) around the village and shown her where everything is, explained what resources we were looking for currently, etc.  So I know that I personally wouldn't mind spending 1/2 my life (or so) focusing on chatting with other Birth Mothers and/or explaining things to the babies.  Having them all in one place would also mean you have a larger audience for explaining things..

Putting in the time to raise babies would also justify the right of an Elder Matriarch to do basically whatever she wants in her old age, which seems a fair payoff for dedicating yourself to raising children for a time.

secondchild

Member

Registered: 2018-03-04

Posts: 17

Re: 10,000 years of human civilisation and we're all still mostly naked

I think the fact that the Cradle would be an excellent place to chat would make it appealing.

Exactly. I also wouldn't mind stopping to go raise a baby, especially if there were a custom tailored place for it. I think that's the key though, is you have to make it appealing enough that you don't have to "make" people come there, they just know that they'll have a much easier time raising their baby if they go to the Cradle.

xoomorg

Member

Registered: 2018-03-06

Posts: 73

Re: 10,000 years of human civilisation and we're all still mostly naked

I think the fact that the Cradle would be an excellent place to chat would make it appealing.

Exactly. I also wouldn't mind stopping to go raise a baby, especially if there were a custom tailored place for it. I think that's the key though, is you have to make it appealing enough that you don't have to "make" people come there, they just know that they'll have a much easier time raising their baby if they go to the Cradle.

So in addition to chat, features of the Cradle would include:

* Food provided to you.  Possibly even fed to you directly (so you don't have to put down your baby and pick it back up) by young girls.
* Free clothes, of the highest quality.
* Protection from bears, outsiders, etc.

Most importantly:

* Granted status as Elder Matriarch when you reach the right age.  This basically makes you the Ruling Class.

secondchild

Member

Registered: 2018-03-04

Posts: 17

Re: 10,000 years of human civilisation and we're all still mostly naked

So in addition to chat, features of the Cradle would include:

* Food provided to you.  Possibly even fed to you directly (so you don't have to put down your baby and pick it back up) by young girls.
* Free clothes, of the highest quality.
* Protection from bears, outsiders, etc.

Most importantly:

* Granted status as Elder Matriarch when you reach the right age.  This basically makes you the Ruling Class.

I'd also add knowledge sharing to that list. The other stuff is valuable to the individual, but teaching is valuable for the whole community.