One Hour One Life Forums

Sleeymoon

Member

Registered: 2018-05-13

Posts: 13

Re: "Everything runs out" - maybe it actually should

I'm an experienced game designer.

But this is one of the most complicated games anyone has ever attempted to design.

I get the feeling that balance will ultimately be impossible, or at least that is a kind of latent fear of mine, as more and more objects are added.

I don't see this as a problem, many paths to victory, keep the players on their toes etc.

There was always a fundamental problem that I've been struggling with for years:  how to handle resource distribution and regeneration in a world where you have no idea how many people will be trying to use those resources in a given area?  If it's just right for 50 people, will it be too fat for 1 person and too lean for 100?

A few years ago, this game actually had an infinite berry bush as a wild food source.  At one point, something like that seemed necessary.  Won't people starve otherwise?  A game like Don't Starve has a single player operating in the world, so the berry bushes can be finite and a good distribution can be picked by the designers.  But when you have 1, 10, or even 100 people playing, and you're not sure how many, how many berry bushes should there be?

Don't Starve is one of my favourite games of all time. Living as a nomadic or even a relatively sedentary Eve, if you find the right biome, is quite fun. Once kids come along, however, it's a choice between ruining someone else's day by leaving them to die or having to settle down and hope you can get a farm going before your hungry babies deplete the local food supply. It would be nice if a small family (4-5 people) could live off the land, occasionally migrating from place to place with nothing more complicated than a sharp rock and a basket. We survived that way for 100,000 years in the past (with families of 50-100 people). I don't see why this would be impossible now.

The game was horrible with infinite berry bushes, and got better when I made them finite.  I balanced the wild food in the game for one person, and just kinda punted the issue.

I'm not sure, in retrospect, why I was even worried about it, given that all babies come through mothers, so populations are naturally limited.  I think back in the day, close-radius Eve placement was also a confounding factor.

But I still wasn't sure if this problem was solved until after launch.  I couldn't test what would happen with 100s of players until I had 100s of players.

Unfortunately, we have way too many babies and we can't grow our cities fast enough to feed them all without risking a famine which could kill the whole tribe. This leads to a lot more baby abandonments (and unhappy players) and even straight up male genocide. If you upped the natural food supply and packed the players closer together, you could add in Adams and require the presence of males for females to have babies.

You did say somewhere that you were worried about consent but I'm not sure I'd pick murder and genocide over rape. Heck, it might even make players think about their behaviour in the real world.

My original design for the tech tree and how stuff would be added was a kind of hand-wavy content-based approach.  People will craft stuff just to craft it, the tech tree will be explored because it's there, etc.  Just keep adding stuff, people love content, who cares?

I always had some misgivings about this approach.  Pointless content is... pointless... and it's not the way I've ever designed a game in the past.

And players quickly echoed this sentiment after the game launched.  No one made pies---why bother, if carrots are infinite?

Pies are way better than carrots. You can fill half your hunger bar 4 times and only take up one slot while you go out hunting.

I haven't seen a dyed hat in the game in a long time...

I have, that or a crown. Usually worn by the person with a knife killing off half the village because they've reached the end of the tech tree and the game is becoming stale.

So then my misgivings came home to roost, and the looming WHY question came sharply into the foreground.  There will be a bunch of pointless content in this game (dyed hats, painted walls, etc.).  But some of the other content, the spine content, need a solid why associated with it.

I think this game has a chance to actually be a good game, as opposed to just the heap of content that I promised.

It is already a good game. It's the lack of content that's preventing it from being a great game.

My original design for the content of the game broke everything humans ever make down into three categories:

1.  Food
2.  Shelter
3.  Entertainment

Can you eat it?  Can it keep you warm?

If not, then you're just making it to make it.  Hula hoops and monoliths fireworks and red shirts.

Items in 3 don't need a reason.

But if an item's primary purpose is 1 or 2, it needs a good reason, or else you're not going to make it.  I don't want deep wells falling into category 3.

One of the main problems with deep wells is that there isn't enough to differentiate hem from shallow wells. Shallow wells bring the water close to where it is needed, which is great, but deep wells do what? Give you a few extra seconds to grab a weapon and kill the noob (or griefer) who's busy emptying it? Even just stopping wells from drying up and becoming useless eyesores for centuries would be an improvement. Deep wells with their greater capacity will help smooth out the water flow. When a crop of carrots needs to be watered a single deep well will water twice as many crops as a shallow well. Cisterns help with this too but then it becomes choice whether to use the plaster to make a cistern or use the wood to make a deep well.

You could also nerf shallow wells a bit. Make it so they can only be built on a swamp tile where the water table may be higher. Or make it so they only produce stagnant water. Good enough for watering crops but not for making dough for delicious pies or any other uses you may implement later.

Kinrany

Member

Registered: 2018-01-22

Posts: 712

Re: "Everything runs out" - maybe it actually should

Jason, I think you're confusing us and/or yourself by using "finite" and "infinite". Taken literally, many of your statements about finite and infinite resources are obviously wrong.

Glassius

Member

Registered: 2018-04-22

Posts: 326

Re: "Everything runs out" - maybe it actually should

I don't like where this is going...
Rebalancing the same thing for the n-th time...
Game balance is just like optimalization...

Joriom is right. Jason, you are trying to rebalance the game all the time. It is tedious both for you and us. The best option to not bore players is to add solid foundations.  There are many great examples in this thread how to do it. And how to force people to move to next technology stage (like, abandon those carrots and start farming wheat instead!)? Every new variant of technology should give significant bonus

Here I will float a previous idea in a new form. Soil is a bit of a problem already, as you can destroy it through griefing or mistakes, and it feels a bit artificial how it's used. What about making soil space limited instead of having it artificially limited? Like this:
1. Using a hoe on bare green and yellow tiles produces a tilled row. (don'Using a hoe on bare green ground produces a tilled row. (don't think you should be able to plant in snow, swamp, desert, rocks. Possibly the yellow ground in addition to green?)
2. Some step of the farming cycle has a chance to turn the ground infertile through the usage system (could be tilling, planting or harvesting, not sure which is best). Infertile ground could be implemented as a type of Floor, so it stays in place, you can put things there, but you can't grow there again.
3. Later on, compost and fertilizers like manure or ashes could provide ways to reclaim infertile land.

I will rework this idea and post separate thread and suggestion on reddit. This is almost exatly how it works in real life! Tilled rows cannot be moved. You are still limited by amount of work, water and eradicated tiles.

For example, an obvious next step is some kind of pump well, maybe a hand pump, and then maybe a wind pump, eventually a motor pump.

Aqueducts! The hole water management thing will be posted in another suggestion. Especially informing, how swamp ponds works, how deep wells are better than shallow. And a new thing, springs, should be present only in badlands

My mind is still hung up on animals needing to eat too <3

I thing, the need to eat, at least for herbivores, can be area dependent. Take example:
Mouflons are running in random directions, but never too far from badlands. There would be 2 timers applied: baby born and death (after maybe 10 timers for baby elapses). Each time baby born timers elapses, it checks the area, like 15 tiles in every direction, if there is already another mouflon. If not, new baby can be spawn. The same can be applicable to rabbits and horses. I think, it is much easier than adding new plant objects or changing tile biom type because of pasture.

The hole system is planning to be described in another thread, along with reddit suggestion. Stay Vigilant!

Underground water should be detected with an Y rod

It does not work.
But other things still worth consideration

Jason, the main issue I see is you are refusing the idea of items affecting each other in the area. I think this is a key for further technology advancement and managing even current state. With area effects you can make things dynamic, self-managing and focus on farther development.

Example how it may work: Tree.
Lets say tree is trying to spread sprout around every 15 minutes and lives for only one hour before becoming a dead tree  (which will also eventually disappear after another hour). When timer elapses, it will search the nearby area and choose by random place that is at least 4 tiles far from every other tree and is of matching biom tile.

Possibilities:
1. You can still screw everything up, for example by chopping the last tree in green biom.
2. Even without complete eradicating area, the scarcity of resources will make villagers die.
3. You can take an epic mission with repopulating areas with certain tress, rabbits.
4. Farmed plants can use the same models as wild variants. They will check area, see there is already to much in densed place and spreading sprouts on random far from current farm. This will make game more immersive. And, no infinite carrot farm, as grown carrot will be the same as wild carrot (maybe also wild carrots should have more than 1 root).
5. You are applying the S-curve of population growth for all resources. Such a dynamic system is much more fun to play. Immersive, intuitive, but tricky to manage.
6. In future, you can make bigger structures, like power plants, oil and water supply network. These things may affect each another in close area.
7. No more well spam.
8. Explosives with big area effect.
9. You can build a factory with production line. Without it, everything will be always hand made, even with tools.
10. Volcanoes, lava, swamp poisoning gases, rabies and animal hunting each other

However, there is very important question to Jason: do you consider area effects ever, applied also by objects? If not, managing the hole game will be always a little counter-intuitive and un-ummersive, but it will help us all understand what is possible to do, and what is not. We will be making better suggestions. I think, the area effects will also gain their own suggestion on reddit

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Suggestions: more basic tools, hugs, more violence, day/night, life tokens, yum 2.0

Kinrany

Member

Registered: 2018-01-22

Posts: 712

Re: "Everything runs out" - maybe it actually should

Jason, the main issue I see is you are refusing the idea of items affecting each other in the area. I think this is a key for further technology advancement and managing even current state. With area effects you can make things dynamic, self-managing and focus on farther development.

It's not a design choice, but a technological constraint.

It does not work.

Can we please have a magical tool that just outputs "Yes" or "No" randomly, based on the current tile's coordinates

sammoh

Member

Registered: 2018-03-01

Posts: 85

Re: "Everything runs out" - maybe it actually should

I came here to say that inter-tile communication is already possible and implemented in the game. I have built a stream pathfinding system using only transitions. 2HOL's bee hives also communicate with other tiles using honeybees to mediate the transaction.

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Two Hours, One Life - a curated OHOL server with heavy modifications.

Discord:     https://discord.gg/atEgxm7
Address:          https://github.com/frankvalentine/clients

Christoffer

Member

From: Sweden

Registered: 2018-04-06

Posts: 148

Website

Re: "Everything runs out" - maybe it actually should

I came here to say that inter-tile communication is already possible and implemented in the game. I have built a stream pathfinding system using only transitions. 2HOL's bee hives also communicate with other tiles using honeybees to mediate the transaction.

Could you describe how the stream is implemented?

Valences42

Member

Registered: 2018-04-07

Posts: 142

Re: "Everything runs out" - maybe it actually should

I'm an experienced game designer.

But this is one of the most complicated games anyone has ever attempted to design.

I get the feeling that balance will ultimately be impossible, or at least that is a kind of latent fear of mine, as more and more objects are added.

I don't see this as a problem, many paths to victory, keep the players on their toes etc.

...

I like the idea of "Many paths to victory."  I feel that people are struggling against nihilism at times here... 

Example: Alternate recipes for rope and fire. 

Argument for keeping one recipe:  I've memorized both, maybe that was the intention.  One way to make a fire.  Simple might be better.  Easier to teach new players as well. 

Argument for allowing alternate recipes:  Gives old players a challenge and ameliorates the damage a new person may cause.  Old players can just wander off and get the other ingredients in peace and quiet.

sammoh

Member

Registered: 2018-03-01

Posts: 85

Re: "Everything runs out" - maybe it actually should

I came here to say that inter-tile communication is already possible and implemented in the game. I have built a stream pathfinding system using only transitions. 2HOL's bee hives also communicate with other tiles using honeybees to mediate the transaction.

Could you describe how the stream is implemented?

The stream sends out an invisible "H2O Agent" to flow in a direction, and the sending tile needs a response within a certain time frame or it will attempt to route east or west around the perceived obstacle. So if a southbound water agent finds an open tile, it will spawn a proper stream tile (which will then send its own agent south). If the way is blocked, it will attempt east, then westbound water agents. If they find a path around the obstacle, a confirmation is sent to turn the southbound tile into an elbow tile.

This was tedious to make, and looks like shite right now (watercolor scans were a cool idea but the marker versions look much better). 2HOL's modding philosophy has always been to push the limits of the engine and the transition system itself - if this works reliably, we will use it as our blueprint for electricity.

Here's a visual breakdown: https://imgur.com/tgVIz99

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Two Hours, One Life - a curated OHOL server with heavy modifications.

Discord:     https://discord.gg/atEgxm7
Address:          https://github.com/frankvalentine/clients

YAHG

Member

Registered: 2018-04-06

Posts: 1,347

Re: "Everything runs out" - maybe it actually should

I came here to say that inter-tile communication is already possible and implemented in the game. I have built a stream pathfinding system using only transitions. 2HOL's bee hives also communicate with other tiles using honeybees to mediate the transaction.

Could you describe how the stream is implemented?

The stream sends out an invisible "H2O Agent" to flow in a direction, and the sending tile needs a response within a certain time frame or it will attempt to route east or west around the perceived obstacle. So if a southbound water agent finds an open tile, it will spawn a proper stream tile (which will then send its own agent south). If the way is blocked, it will attempt east, then westbound water agents. If they find a path around the obstacle, a confirmation is sent to turn the southbound tile into an elbow tile.

This was tedious to make, and looks like shite right now (watercolor scans were a cool idea but the marker versions look much better). 2HOL's modding philosophy has always been to push the limits of the engine and the transition system itself - if this works reliably, we will use it as our blueprint for electricity.

Here's a visual breakdown: https://imgur.com/tgVIz99

Holy shit that is badass..

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"be prepared and one person cant kill all city, if he can, then you deserve it"  -pein
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https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=1438